2023 CS Historic Draft - How's My Team?

[Who]

And Ben played in an era where he had to face real size infrequently (Shaq, Dwight, and later DRob is about it).  I don't know how he'd hold up in this sort of thing.  Plus, Ben might be the worst offensive player in this. I had Ben on one of these and faced a lot of this criticism which I thought was fair.

This bothered me about Ben Wallace (his offense) and other defense-only centers or limited offensive centers. I liked the two way guys a lot better in this format. 

I do think Ben's FG% would increase today due to the better floor spacing allowing him more rim running opportunities and lob opportunities.

The main issue for me was allowing other teams with a dominant defensive big man to hang back in the paint, clog the paint, and deny / reduce easy paint scores. Guys like Ben Wallace are going to let guys like Dwight Howard and Alonzo Mourning to be free safeties around the rim. That is a problem.

[Moranis]

Ben played in an era where he had to face real size infrequently (Shaq, Dwight, and later DRob is about it).  I don't know how he'd hold up in this sort of thing.  Plus, Ben might be the worst offensive player in this.

I need to store this somewhere to use against you next time you select Big Ben in one of these things.

you were one of the people I was referring to.  Ben is so good defensively, he can be great on these, you just need the right team.  I had Karl Malone and thought that pairing would work well as I believe Malone would have easily spaced out to 3, but Ben's lack of offense is always going to be an issue in these type of drafts.

[Who]

Who do you folks like more offensively?

Mutombo or Joakim Noah?

Mutombo gives you better interior scoring. A low post option. Not a high quality or even medium quality one but still someone who has to be defended. Also with his size Mutombo is more of a threat rolling to the rim for lob passes and dump offs.

Joakim Noah gives you the high post passing and facilitation. Mutombo couldn't do that when he went to NJ to play with J Kidd. He couldn't fit into their offense because it required passing, decision making & playing off of the elbows. Mutombo couldn't do it. He just wanted to run straight into low post and hang around the basket. He mucked up their whole offense. To the extent that they played Jason Collins over him. Mutombo fared better in Houston as a low (tiny) usage defensive center playing PnR basketball with McGrady.

Joakim Noah gives you better transition scoring and the occassional one dribble drive to the hoop when the defense falls asleep because they assume he won't shoot the ball.

[bdm860]

One thing I like about this league, with the lack of the Top 75, it really feels like an NCAA tournament, where I wouldn't be surprised to see any team rolling off X straight wins to win it all or one of the favorites getting dropped early.  And also feels like something from the era of Juniors and Seniors, where you have a lot of talented guys but missing the best-of-the-best who are in the NBA.

And without the mega stars, these feel more like real teams (even though they're all still stacked), and feel a lot more balanced.  Just like any team could win it all, there's so many players that could win MOP, and there's not even clear cut MVP on your own teams.

[Who]

Glen Rice is an interesting player. He is one of those guys who I think would be better today than his own era.

There was a couple of points in his career I found interesting.

The Lakers years were interesting because of how he struggled offensively within the Triangle without screens to run off of for catch and shoot opportunities. He would get angry at how his role had changed from Charlotte where the offense was designed for him versus the Triangle which seemed to work against his interests. With a decline in his offensive role, Rice was unable to make up for it with his defense & rebounding and was sent away in favour of Rick Fox.

The playoff matchups with Scottie Pippen were epic. Some of the best lockdown defense you will see. Pip honed in on Rice and took away so many of his catch and shoot opportunities. Forced Rice to attack one-on-one off the bounce which he wasn't as good at as he also showed in LAL in the Triangle. Rice's best one-on-one play was his post ups but Pippen was big enough, strong enough and far too long for Rice to get that fallaway off comfortably over Pippen. So all series long you would see Rice taking contested jump-shots with Pippen all over him.

I thought they had 3 playoff matchups but it was only two. In 1992, the Bulls swept a young Miami team in the first round. Rice scored 19ppg but on only 42.5% TS%. In 1998, they played in the ECSF, Rice scored 22.6ppg but again held to 51.6% TS%.

The reason I find this somewhat comforting is that nobody in today's NBA would be allowed to body up Rice the way Pippen was allowed to do in the 1990s. So I don't think defenders would be as good at shutting Rice down. Secondly, very few of the starting SFs in this Historical League are top defensive guys (Marion, Iggy) so Rice will get off against most others.

Also, with the way the three point shot is encouraged offensively (increased volume from 3) and consequently how teams now have to defend the three point line, Rice's driving opportunities would increase as well as his three point shot attempts. Making him even more difficult to defend.


Rice played in another couple of playoff series in his prime. He played very well against NY in 1997. They didn't have the right defensive matchups for him. Rice was too good off ball for Larry Johnson (starting SF for NY) to stick with him. And Houston & Starks were too small to check Rice. That was perhaps his best playoff series with 28ppg on 49% FG% 62% TS%. Larry Johnson did get some revenge on the other end with his post ups as he too had one of his best offensive series against Rice. In fairness, very tough defensive matchup for Rice. LJ too big and powerful for him.

Rice also played very well against Mutombo's Hawks (Ty Corbin main defender vs Rice) in 1998 with 23ppg on 58% TS%. I thought Anthony Mason was the real Hawks killer in that series as they had no answer for him but Rice was very good as well.

An interesting matchup in 1994 was against the Atlanta Hawks were he played Danny Manning (on my team). I have only seen 2 games of this series. Atlanta had no SFs and a few bigs so Manning replaced Nique at SF and matched up with Rice. Manning did well in the games I saw. Over 5 games, Rice averaged only 13ppg on 45% TS%. Manning averaged 18ppg on 51% TS%. I am surprised Rice did not do better here.

[gouki88]

As part of this I have watched a lot of Brandon Roy clips (given I took him!). Man, what a joy he was

[Kernewek]

As part of this I have watched a lot of Brandon Roy clips (given I took him!). Man, what a joy he was

Like a smoother, slighter Paul Pierce. knee injuries are the worst, but I really feel bad for those late 00’s Blazers squads. Oden, LMA, Roy could have been great.

[Roy H.]

One thing I like about this league, with the lack of the Top 75, it really feels like an NCAA tournament, where I wouldn't be surprised to see any team rolling off X straight wins to win it all or one of the favorites getting dropped early.  And also feels like something from the era of Juniors and Seniors, where you have a lot of talented guys but missing the best-of-the-best who are in the NBA.

And without the mega stars, these feel more like real teams (even though they're all still stacked), and feel a lot more balanced.  Just like any team could win it all, there's so many players that could win MOP, and there's not even clear cut MVP on your own teams.

I think that's a good take.  There are no weak teams.  If you did a 12-team playoff where there are two conferences and the top two teams get first round byes, a #6 seed could easily win this thing.

[Who]

To add on to the Glen Rice post and reiterate a point from the draft thread, the inconsistency in the playoffs of Rice and also Peja as some of the top shooters in this draft at SF ... in contrast to the consistency and how prolific a scorer Mullin was in the postseason, makes Mullin stand out.

Mully is something far greater than them. Not just as a shooter and off ball player but far tougher for defenses to slow down / limit. Far more consistent. More prolific.

The other thing with Mullin when I was looking at him prior to the draft that stood out was his consistency in the playoffs:

1990 - two series - 29ppg 4.5apg 61% TS%
1991 - two series - 24ppg 3apg 62% TS%
1992 - one series - only down series, 18ppg 51% TS%
1994 - one series - 25ppg 4apg 68% TS%

So only one bad series out of six. And in 5 of those 6 series he was basically in the mid to high 20s in points per game while shooting 60+% TS%. That is devastatingly good.

Mullin was past his prime (Indiana) and before his prime (GSW 2nd year 1987) in his other playoff appearances.

The teams he played against were Magic's Lakers, D-Rob's Spurs, the Suns, the Stockton & Malone Jazz and Barkley's Suns. All big competition. Oh and a young Sonics team. They were good but not great yet. Impressive.

Then add in Mully's superior passing as well as his consistency, elite shooting & higher volume scoring and he stands out hugely from the other shooters like Rice, Peja and Granger.

[Roy H.]

To add on to the Glen Rice post and reiterate a point from the draft thread, the inconsistency in the playoffs of Rice and also Peja as some of the top shooters in this draft at SF ... in contrast to the consistency and how prolific a scorer Mullin was in the postseason, makes Mullin stand out.

Mully is something far greater than them. Not just as a shooter and off ball player but far tougher for defenses to slow down / limit. Far more consistent. More prolific.

The other thing with Mullin when I was looking at him prior to the draft that stood out was his consistency in the playoffs:

1990 - two series - 29ppg 4.5apg 61% TS%
1991 - two series - 24ppg 3apg 62% TS%
1992 - one series - only down series, 18ppg 51% TS%
1994 - one series - 25ppg 4apg 68% TS%

So only one bad series out of six. And in 5 of those 6 series he was basically in the mid to high 20s in points per game while shooting 60+% TS%. That is devastatingly good.

Mullin was past his prime (Indiana) and before his prime (GSW 2nd year 1987) in his other playoff appearances.

The teams he played against were Magic's Lakers, D-Rob's Spurs, the Suns, the Stockton & Malone Jazz and Barkley's Suns. All big competition. Oh and a young Sonics team. They were good but not great yet. Impressive.

Then add in Mully's superior passing as well as his consistency, elite shooting & higher volume scoring and he stands out hugely from the other shooters like Rice, Peja and Granger.

Yeah, there's definitely a reason he made the original Dream Team.  The Run TMC teams were some of the most fun to watch. 

[gouki88]

As part of this I have watched a lot of Brandon Roy clips (given I took him!). Man, what a joy he was

Like a smoother, slighter Paul Pierce. knee injuries are the worst, but I really feel bad for those late 00’s Blazers squads. Oden, LMA, Roy could have been great.

They really would have been. Roy & Oden had a record of 51-25 together, all three of them had a record of 50-12 together. Batum, Outlaw, Fernandez & Bayless were a good young bench too.

[Kernewek]

To add on to the Glen Rice post and reiterate a point from the draft thread, the inconsistency in the playoffs of Rice and also Peja as some of the top shooters in this draft at SF ... in contrast to the consistency and how prolific a scorer Mullin was in the postseason, makes Mullin stand out.

Mully is something far greater than them. Not just as a shooter and off ball player but far tougher for defenses to slow down / limit. Far more consistent. More prolific.

The other thing with Mullin when I was looking at him prior to the draft that stood out was his consistency in the playoffs:

1990 - two series - 29ppg 4.5apg 61% TS%
1991 - two series - 24ppg 3apg 62% TS%
1992 - one series - only down series, 18ppg 51% TS%
1994 - one series - 25ppg 4apg 68% TS%

So only one bad series out of six. And in 5 of those 6 series he was basically in the mid to high 20s in points per game while shooting 60+% TS%. That is devastatingly good.

Mullin was past his prime (Indiana) and before his prime (GSW 2nd year 1987) in his other playoff appearances.

The teams he played against were Magic's Lakers, D-Rob's Spurs, the Suns, the Stockton & Malone Jazz and Barkley's Suns. All big competition. Oh and a young Sonics team. They were good but not great yet. Impressive.

Then add in Mully's superior passing as well as his consistency, elite shooting & higher volume scoring and he stands out hugely from the other shooters like Rice, Peja and Granger.

Yeah, there's definitely a reason he made the original Dream Team.  The Run TMC teams were some of the most fun to watch.

Another interesting thing about not having the Top 75 is seeing just how impressive the depth and the breadth of talent across the league really is and was. When you don't have the usual suspects taking up all the space in the conversation, it's really quite something.

[gouki88]

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=108318.msg3181661#msg3181661

I believe that all rosters are up to date in the above thread. Once it ticks over to Monday ET I'm happy to get people's ballots in throughout the week

[Moranis]

To add on to the Glen Rice post and reiterate a point from the draft thread, the inconsistency in the playoffs of Rice and also Peja as some of the top shooters in this draft at SF ... in contrast to the consistency and how prolific a scorer Mullin was in the postseason, makes Mullin stand out.

Mully is something far greater than them. Not just as a shooter and off ball player but far tougher for defenses to slow down / limit. Far more consistent. More prolific.

The other thing with Mullin when I was looking at him prior to the draft that stood out was his consistency in the playoffs:

1990 - two series - 29ppg 4.5apg 61% TS%
1991 - two series - 24ppg 3apg 62% TS%
1992 - one series - only down series, 18ppg 51% TS%
1994 - one series - 25ppg 4apg 68% TS%

So only one bad series out of six. And in 5 of those 6 series he was basically in the mid to high 20s in points per game while shooting 60+% TS%. That is devastatingly good.

Mullin was past his prime (Indiana) and before his prime (GSW 2nd year 1987) in his other playoff appearances.

The teams he played against were Magic's Lakers, D-Rob's Spurs, the Suns, the Stockton & Malone Jazz and Barkley's Suns. All big competition. Oh and a young Sonics team. They were good but not great yet. Impressive.

Then add in Mully's superior passing as well as his consistency, elite shooting & higher volume scoring and he stands out hugely from the other shooters like Rice, Peja and Granger.

Yeah, there's definitely a reason he made the original Dream Team.  The Run TMC teams were some of the most fun to watch.

No one liked Isiah?

[Who]

"My favorite thing about him early was the dude can run, and he can catch," [Jameer] Nelson said on the "Knuckleheads" podcast. "After that, like we're gonna figure it out. You can throw him bounce passes, chest passes, over the top, or whatever. His hands was crazy. And then defensively, I tell people all the time, because they see Dwight as silly and playful and joyful. The dude was the smartest defender I've ever been on a team with."