Author Topic: If Miami Wins finals...  (Read 5837 times)

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Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2023, 11:27:14 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Still , it’s hard to figure all of a sudden a bunch of bench players are now ELITE offensive weapons. Or is or defense suspect because lack of leadership and coaching .

They are pretty mediocre.

Gabe Vincent was a below average backup PG in terms of his offense. He is way below average as a ball-handler, driver, passer & playmaker. He is a below average scorer with below average shooting with below average efficiency. That is a well below average offensive player. Now, he is a very good defensive player and has been throughout his time in the NBA. That is how he stayed in the league. But he has never been up to much offensively. Even in the playoffs, you can see his numbers while better are all still below average.

Caleb Martin is a solid two way wing but average size for a SF which hurts them when they try to go small as too is Jimmy. They lack size at forward (and often at guard to make matters worse) which heaps pressure on Bam as defender and rebounder. That has caused them problems all season. And why C Martin was shifted to the bench in favour of K Love late in the season. Martin is a fine but unexceptional role player scorer who scored 13ppg on 57% TS% (slightly below average) on the season in 30mpg. He has caught fire in the playoffs at 68%. He lit up BOS and MIL while played solid againt NYK.

Kevin Love has struggled all season. Both in Miami and Cleveland. He is a below average backup PF. He lost his spot in CLE and only found one in Miami because they had no big men other than Bam.

Cody Zeller is a useful 3rd string center mopping up minutes as the main backup five. He is a liability in this role. He should have been on an NBA team earlier this year but he couldn't find a job anywhere. He is not that bad. He is a solid 3rd stringer but he is a weak main backup center which is where Miami is forced to use him due to their complete lack of bigs around Bam.

Duncan Robinson is a solid role player. He is a good offensive player with strong outside shooting and good movement. He is unfairly maligned defensively. He is more adequate than bad. I am happy to see him back in the rotation and doing well while Herro is out. I felt he was hard done by / wronged being left out. Good bench player. Serviceable starter (below average).

Kyle Lowry is an old guard. He struggles against speed but his bulky build and his smarts help him matchup against bigger guards well. He was a good matchup against us because all our guards are big slow combo guards who Lowry can defend. Brogdon is the only real scorer and he was hurt / terrible. That made life easier for Lowry. Lowry is still a solid offensive player. A streaky scorer who gives you steady passing and court presence. Solid defender so long as he isn't facing speed. DEN do not have speedy guards either. Nor did NYK. Or MIL. Come to think of it. His legs can't keep up with quick PGs anymore.

Max Strus is a solid player. I'd rate him as adequate defensively like D Robinson. Beefier and better able to handle physicality but slower afoot. Solid offensive player. Average shooter but he can handle the ball and pass reasonably well. Good 5th option. Below average starter. Probably average to a bit above average bench player. Fills a gap well despite being exceptional at nothing.

That is not a talented supporting cast.

That is not a well-rounded supporting cast. There is no big man help for Bam. There is no size at forward. There is size at guard (in part thanks to Herro's injury) but none in the frontcourt. They are exposed and vulnerable to teams that will attack them inside and on the boards. They can be destroyed on the boards. Bad rebounding team. Says a lot about our rebounding and nothing good.

Jimmy and Bam are high end players but their supporting cast sucks for a playoff team.
Would be one of, if not the least talented champions ever
I'd still take the 94 Rockets as the worst ever, but they did have Hakeem who is a different class of player than Butler so it would be an interesting thought experiment. 

The 79 Sonics are also in the discussion.  They were pretty young, didn't have any uber stars, but did have a solid trio in DJ, Sigma, and Williams with some solid depth like Brown, Shelton, Silas. 

75 Warriors would be the other team in the bottom 4.
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Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2023, 11:35:13 AM »

Offline ozgod

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….they deserve it… beating Milwaukee, Boston & Denver
, being an 8th seed with no home court is awesome for them…& tired of hearing Butler name all the time cause the other players has step up plus what a great coaching job by Spolestra

Totally agree, TP. At some point you have to accept results. As bad as they may look on paper and in the regular season, championships aren’t won on paper or in the regular season. If they win it they will have deserved it. So what if they shot 20% above their season and career averages during the playoffs? Nobody else did. So what if they’re all undrafted players that are trash compared to the lottery picks on a lot of the other teams? None of the drafted players on other teams stepped up when needed.

Obviously they have a way to go but if they win it you would have to respect them as having outplayed some good teams to get there. It’s a results oriented business. IT won’t make the pain of the Celtics loss better but you’d have to tip your cap to them. Sure the Celtics could’ve, should’ve, would’ve beat them…but didn’t. And ultimately that’s all the counts. They don’t have a winner for most talented team on paper, unfortunately for our team…they only have the LOB trophy for those who got it done  :police:
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2023, 11:38:29 AM »

Offline Kuberski33

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No, because we should've beaten them. What they do makes no impact on what we should've done.
Or it could be that the C's are what they are - a wildly inconsistent team that's often careless with the ball and one with an annoying inability to focus and close teams out unless their backs are against the wall.

They may never improve - or they may. But it's by no means guaranteed.

Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2023, 12:06:29 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I'd actually feel a bit worse about it, because then it'd show that even Denver had its vulnerabilities and probably weren't world-beaters like we thought. Same thing with the Bruins in the NHL btw. Both the C's and B's lost Game 7s at home to the South Florida teams (and choked throughout the series) and now both those other teams made the Finals with a chance to win it. Who knows, if BOS wins those Game 7s maybe they make the Finals? (C's definitely would have obviously if they won Game 7 last round)
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Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2023, 12:09:30 PM »

Offline footey

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Still , it’s hard to figure all of a sudden a bunch of bench players are now ELITE offensive weapons. Or is or defense suspect because lack of leadership and coaching .

They are pretty mediocre.

Gabe Vincent was a below average backup PG in terms of his offense. He is way below average as a ball-handler, driver, passer & playmaker. He is a below average scorer with below average shooting with below average efficiency. That is a well below average offensive player. Now, he is a very good defensive player and has been throughout his time in the NBA. That is how he stayed in the league. But he has never been up to much offensively. Even in the playoffs, you can see his numbers while better are all still below average.

Caleb Martin is a solid two way wing but average size for a SF which hurts them when they try to go small as too is Jimmy. They lack size at forward (and often at guard to make matters worse) which heaps pressure on Bam as defender and rebounder. That has caused them problems all season. And why C Martin was shifted to the bench in favour of K Love late in the season. Martin is a fine but unexceptional role player scorer who scored 13ppg on 57% TS% (slightly below average) on the season in 30mpg. He has caught fire in the playoffs at 68%. He lit up BOS and MIL while played solid againt NYK.

Kevin Love has struggled all season. Both in Miami and Cleveland. He is a below average backup PF. He lost his spot in CLE and only found one in Miami because they had no big men other than Bam.

Cody Zeller is a useful 3rd string center mopping up minutes as the main backup five. He is a liability in this role. He should have been on an NBA team earlier this year but he couldn't find a job anywhere. He is not that bad. He is a solid 3rd stringer but he is a weak main backup center which is where Miami is forced to use him due to their complete lack of bigs around Bam.

Duncan Robinson is a solid role player. He is a good offensive player with strong outside shooting and good movement. He is unfairly maligned defensively. He is more adequate than bad. I am happy to see him back in the rotation and doing well while Herro is out. I felt he was hard done by / wronged being left out. Good bench player. Serviceable starter (below average).

Kyle Lowry is an old guard. He struggles against speed but his bulky build and his smarts help him matchup against bigger guards well. He was a good matchup against us because all our guards are big slow combo guards who Lowry can defend. Brogdon is the only real scorer and he was hurt / terrible. That made life easier for Lowry. Lowry is still a solid offensive player. A streaky scorer who gives you steady passing and court presence. Solid defender so long as he isn't facing speed. DEN do not have speedy guards either. Nor did NYK. Or MIL. Come to think of it. His legs can't keep up with quick PGs anymore.

Max Strus is a solid player. I'd rate him as adequate defensively like D Robinson. Beefier and better able to handle physicality but slower afoot. Solid offensive player. Average shooter but he can handle the ball and pass reasonably well. Good 5th option. Below average starter. Probably average to a bit above average bench player. Fills a gap well despite being exceptional at nothing.

That is not a talented supporting cast.

That is not a well-rounded supporting cast. There is no big man help for Bam. There is no size at forward. There is size at guard (in part thanks to Herro's injury) but none in the frontcourt. They are exposed and vulnerable to teams that will attack them inside and on the boards. They can be destroyed on the boards. Bad rebounding team. Says a lot about our rebounding and nothing good.

Jimmy and Bam are high end players but their supporting cast sucks for a playoff team.
Would be one of, if not the least talented champions ever
I'd still take the 94 Rockets as the worst ever, but they did have Hakeem who is a different class of player than Butler so it would be an interesting thought experiment. 

The 79 Sonics are also in the discussion.  They were pretty young, didn't have any uber stars, but did have a solid trio in DJ, Sigma, and Williams with some solid depth like Brown, Shelton, Silas. 

75 Warriors would be the other team in the bottom 4.

The 79 Sonics were better than the 78 Bullets, whom they lost to in 7 games and got there revenge in 79, decidedly.  #oldenuftoremember

Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2023, 12:35:04 PM »

Offline cman88

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I think it just goes in the face of common logic why Miami is winning why fans cant accept it. generally in the NBA, talent wins out. and the more talented team wins a 7 game series. and generally, besides this year, the best a team has shot from 3 in a series is about 40%. so, the teams that are going to be in the mix are your Boston/Milwaukee/philly. teams that have top 10 players who are going to consistently be a top seed.

in a NORMAL season. A team like Miami who was a bottom 3pt % team with no top 10 players. would maybe get hot for a game or two. But logic would say talent wins out in the end and teams cant shoot 50% every game.

If they are going to shoot 50% from three for a whole playoff span you have to tip your hat to it. its the great equalizer in all these series. where they are lacking in talent/scoring from their stars they are making up in owning the 3 point battle.

on paper their talent is poor. Yet all their "poor talent" is shooting generationally from 3. Its why they are winning. it's probably not sustainable long term, but for a year it is.


Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2023, 01:17:58 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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There are no super teams currently. Also factor in the reliance on 3pt shooting. When they aren't falling, any team can get beat.

The fact that the C's are out aside, it's great that a play-in team is competing for the championship. I just wish the league would do something about games turning into 3 point contests. That isn't exactly entertaining.

Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2023, 01:19:27 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Still , it’s hard to figure all of a sudden a bunch of bench players are now ELITE offensive weapons. Or is or defense suspect because lack of leadership and coaching .

They are pretty mediocre.

Gabe Vincent was a below average backup PG in terms of his offense. He is way below average as a ball-handler, driver, passer & playmaker. He is a below average scorer with below average shooting with below average efficiency. That is a well below average offensive player. Now, he is a very good defensive player and has been throughout his time in the NBA. That is how he stayed in the league. But he has never been up to much offensively. Even in the playoffs, you can see his numbers while better are all still below average.

Caleb Martin is a solid two way wing but average size for a SF which hurts them when they try to go small as too is Jimmy. They lack size at forward (and often at guard to make matters worse) which heaps pressure on Bam as defender and rebounder. That has caused them problems all season. And why C Martin was shifted to the bench in favour of K Love late in the season. Martin is a fine but unexceptional role player scorer who scored 13ppg on 57% TS% (slightly below average) on the season in 30mpg. He has caught fire in the playoffs at 68%. He lit up BOS and MIL while played solid againt NYK.

Kevin Love has struggled all season. Both in Miami and Cleveland. He is a below average backup PF. He lost his spot in CLE and only found one in Miami because they had no big men other than Bam.

Cody Zeller is a useful 3rd string center mopping up minutes as the main backup five. He is a liability in this role. He should have been on an NBA team earlier this year but he couldn't find a job anywhere. He is not that bad. He is a solid 3rd stringer but he is a weak main backup center which is where Miami is forced to use him due to their complete lack of bigs around Bam.

Duncan Robinson is a solid role player. He is a good offensive player with strong outside shooting and good movement. He is unfairly maligned defensively. He is more adequate than bad. I am happy to see him back in the rotation and doing well while Herro is out. I felt he was hard done by / wronged being left out. Good bench player. Serviceable starter (below average).

Kyle Lowry is an old guard. He struggles against speed but his bulky build and his smarts help him matchup against bigger guards well. He was a good matchup against us because all our guards are big slow combo guards who Lowry can defend. Brogdon is the only real scorer and he was hurt / terrible. That made life easier for Lowry. Lowry is still a solid offensive player. A streaky scorer who gives you steady passing and court presence. Solid defender so long as he isn't facing speed. DEN do not have speedy guards either. Nor did NYK. Or MIL. Come to think of it. His legs can't keep up with quick PGs anymore.

Max Strus is a solid player. I'd rate him as adequate defensively like D Robinson. Beefier and better able to handle physicality but slower afoot. Solid offensive player. Average shooter but he can handle the ball and pass reasonably well. Good 5th option. Below average starter. Probably average to a bit above average bench player. Fills a gap well despite being exceptional at nothing.

That is not a talented supporting cast.

That is not a well-rounded supporting cast. There is no big man help for Bam. There is no size at forward. There is size at guard (in part thanks to Herro's injury) but none in the frontcourt. They are exposed and vulnerable to teams that will attack them inside and on the boards. They can be destroyed on the boards. Bad rebounding team. Says a lot about our rebounding and nothing good.

Jimmy and Bam are high end players but their supporting cast sucks for a playoff team.
Would be one of, if not the least talented champions ever
I'd still take the 94 Rockets as the worst ever, but they did have Hakeem who is a different class of player than Butler so it would be an interesting thought experiment. 

The 79 Sonics are also in the discussion.  They were pretty young, didn't have any uber stars, but did have a solid trio in DJ, Sigma, and Williams with some solid depth like Brown, Shelton, Silas. 

75 Warriors would be the other team in the bottom 4.

The 79 Sonics were better than the 78 Bullets, whom they lost to in 7 games and got there revenge in 79, decidedly.  #oldenuftoremember
perhaps, but I always thought of that as more the Bullets just getting too old.  Those 2 seasons were a pretty classic old vs young matchup with the old guys having just enough left to win the first matchup and not enough to win the 2nd as the young guys got better.  Historically Hayes and Unseld were the 2 best players on either team and while DJ was 3rd, Dandridge wasn't that far behind (nor was Sikma).
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Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2023, 02:29:04 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I have zero interest in seeing the Heat win.  That wouldn't make me feel better at all.  In fact, it would make me feel worse, because I know we're better than the Heat, and a Heat win would show that the Nuggets were beatable.


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Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2023, 02:33:27 PM »

Offline lbgreen33

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….they deserve it… beating Milwaukee, Boston & Denver
, being an 8th seed with no home court is awesome for them…& tired of hearing Butler name all the time cause the other players has step up plus what a great coaching job by Spolestra

Totally agree, TP. At some point you have to accept results. As bad as they may look on paper and in the regular season, championships aren’t won on paper or in the regular season. If they win it they will have deserved it. So what if they shot 20% above their season and career averages during the playoffs? Nobody else did. So what if they’re all undrafted players that are trash compared to the lottery picks on a lot of the other teams? None of the drafted players on other teams stepped up when needed.

Obviously they have a way to go but if they win it you would have to respect them as having outplayed some good teams to get there. It’s a results oriented business. IT won’t make the pain of the Celtics loss better but you’d have to tip your cap to them. Sure the Celtics could’ve, should’ve, would’ve beat them…but didn’t. And ultimately that’s all the counts. They don’t have a winner for most talented team on paper, unfortunately for our team…they only have the LOB trophy for those who got it done  :police:
This post is right in line with how I feel. I thought Miami would get crushed by the Bucks! That is the team I was worried about. Instead the beat the Bucks in 5 games Then NY, Then us. Boston was the only team to take it 7 games. Miami is playing really well.

Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2023, 02:51:21 PM »

Offline celticinorlando

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I talked to a good friend today (heat fan) and he even said if they heat win they would be the worst nba championship of all time.

Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2023, 03:22:14 PM »

Offline Dchuck

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If Miami wins...I would not feel any better about our team.  Even if Denver wins.

2023, particularly how the playoffs unfolded was setting up to be an amazing opportunity to hang banner 18.

We BLEW it!

We underperformed and didn't live up to expectations.  We did not optimize the talent, health and experience of this team.  In addition, we did not take advantage of the path that was is front of us...beating Embiid, no Giannis, playing an 8th seed with game 7 at home.  It was a complete and utter disaster of a season.  Period!

If Miami wins...I hope its a wake up call to this team.  Like them or hate them, this Miami team is well coached, play together, play with effort, doesn't fold under pressure.  Literally everything I want the C's to be and everything they should be.  Otherwise, we'll be looking at a team that will be handcuffed paying 2 "All NBA" players $600 million for early playoff exits.

They better wake up!


Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2023, 09:11:46 PM »

Offline LilRip

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Sorry guys, Denver’s winning in 5 or 6. They’re the better team. But the Heat have too good of a gameplan to not make a series out of it.
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Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2023, 08:02:33 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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If Miami wins...I would not feel any better about our team.  Even if Denver wins.

2023, particularly how the playoffs unfolded was setting up to be an amazing opportunity to hang banner 18.

We BLEW it!

We underperformed and didn't live up to expectations.  We did not optimize the talent, health and experience of this team.  In addition, we did not take advantage of the path that was is front of us...beating Embiid, no Giannis, playing an 8th seed with game 7 at home.  It was a complete and utter disaster of an ending to the season.  Period!

If Miami wins...I hope its a wake up call to this team.  Like them or hate them, this Miami team is well coached, play together, play with effort, doesn't fold under pressure.  Literally everything I want the C's to be and everything they should be.  Otherwise, we'll be looking at a team that will be handcuffed paying 2 "All NBA" players $600 million for early playoff exits.

They better wake up!
Easy, easy my friend, C's were the 3rd best team in the NBA, not a terrible season. I fixed it for you above.

Re: If Miami Wins finals...
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2023, 08:15:49 AM »

Offline gift

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They were one half away from losing in the play-in tournament, and now they're 3 games away from winning an NBA championship.


Even worse, they were 2 minutes and 26 seconds away from not making the playoffs. They went on a 13-1 run in those final two minutes against Chicago and that run seemingly kept its steam for multiple playoff series.

They were outscored after a combined 90+ minutes against their play-in opponents, the Bulls and Hawks.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2023, 08:21:37 AM by gift »