Celtics Need an Elite Playmaker

[KG Living Legend]

 Brought this topic up years ago. Was mostly shot down during the Brad Steven's Era. People say. "Everyone is the Point guard" "It's position less basketball " Brad wants Everyone to be able to shoot, drive or pass"

 Bulcrap. You need am elite playmaker. If this team had prime Jason Kidd, or Nash, even Prime Rondo playing with Tatum and Brown.  That one player would make this a title team. 

 I don't know if Scoot Henderson is that good, I hear he's a very good passer maybe not elite. But it might be worth trading Brown for the possibility that he's a game changing PG.

 If you throw in Simon's you have a deal for Jaylen Brown.

[Who]

From what I have read about him, Scoot Henderson sounds more like a Derrick Rose or Russell Westbrook type PG. A scoring PG who can pass. An athletic guard who is more of a slasher like Rose or Westbrook than say a shooting PG like Kyrie or Lillard. 

Probably be a few years until he can run a team. More of a scorer in the interim who provides some playmaking but not necessarily control of tempo / game.

[obnoxiousmime]

I agree that a playmaking guard would be a better fit with Tatum, but it's just not realistic to trade for a draft pick/19 year-old right now. Tatum is going to be up for an extension next offseason. You can't be confident he will re-sign if it looks like we are moving backwards, not forwards. There's also no guarantee Scoot will even be available at 3.

In retrospect, the move to make was probably Haliburton 1.5 years ago when the Kings were desperate to split up their guards and Jaylen was still under contract for 2.5 seasons. Haliburton is one of the few elite PGs who doesn't care about his own offense and would be fine feeding Tatum. He's also got a happy attitude that would balance out Tatum's quiet demeanor. He's a better outside shooter than Jaylen and has the size/athleticism to be a good defender.

Unfortunately, it just wasn't the right timing. Today, they would trip all over themselves to make a deal like that.

[Who]

From what I have read about him, Scoot Henderson sounds more like a Derrick Rose or Russell Westbrook type PG.

I agree that a playmaking guard would be a better fit with Tatum

I was thinking yesterday how Tatum is most similar to guys like Durant & Kawhi Leonard and how both of those played great next to Westbrook. Durant played great next to Steph, Harden, Kyrie. Kawhi with Lowry & Tony Parker.

Their games meld well next to a ball-handling guard. Someone who can push the pace, collapse the first line of the defense. Someone they can play off of at times to get easier shot attempts. Their (Kawhi, Durant, Tatum) shooting ability being a major asset next to these ball-handling guards.

Actaully, I know when I was thinking about this, I remember now, it was the Ja Morant trade idea. Trying to trade Jaylen for Morant while Morant has these PR problems. How Durant played so well next to Westbrook and how Tatum would likely play just as well alongside Morant even though Morant has a dodgy outside jump-shot. That their games should dove-tail together nicely.

That this of player (slashing PG) could work great with Tatum.

[Who]

I agree that a playmaking guard would be a better fit with Tatum, but it's just not realistic to trade for a draft pick/19 year-old right now. Tatum is going to be up for an extension next offseason. You can't be confident he will re-sign if it looks like we are moving backwards, not forwards. There's also no guarantee Scoot will even be available at 3.

I have some temptation over that trade even without Scoot Henderson. With Brandon Miller at #3. A ready made replacement (in terms of eating minutes) for Jaylen Brown. A sweet shooting SF to play alongside Tatum at PF. Lots of length and athleticism at forward.

Plus Anfernee Simons at guard. I wonder if Simons could transition to PG. He is a bit small defensively at SG. If he could play the point, that would make things easier moving forward. Anyway, either way, PG or SG, Anfernee Simons would then free up a trade where one of our 3 combo guards could be traded for another big man.

G: D White, Brogdon
G: A Simons, Hauser
F: B Miller, G Williams
F: Tatum, Horford
C: Timelord, (trade target with Smart)

Simons would give the team a 2nd option offensively while Brandon Miller develops. A legit 20ppg 4-5apg combo guard. High level jump-shooter. Reminds me a bit of Jason Terry. Also in terms of the Terry + Dirk 1-2 punch which Simons + Tatum could develop into.

Meanwhile, Brandon Miller gets to start off slow. Be a double digit scorer and defender as a rookie and grow from there. Similar to Keegan Murray in Sacramento. Or Harrison Barnes back in the day for the GSW. Hopefully developing into a 20ppg threat down the road with plus D.

[KG Living Legend]

From what I have read about him, Scoot Henderson sounds more like a Derrick Rose or Russell Westbrook type PG. A scoring PG who can pass. An athletic guard who is more of a slasher like Rose or Westbrook than say a shooting PG like Kyrie or Lillard. 

Probably be a few years until he can run a team. More of a scorer in the interim who provides some playmaking but not necessarily control of tempo / game.

 Who. I did hear Ryen Rusillo say that Scoot sees the game one step ahead of everyone else. And I'm not saying the player has to be Scoot, I'm sure we don't get him.

 Somehow someway the Celtics need to find they're Jokic. It's so fun to watch when the whole team knows that Jokic is going to make the right play no matter what,  and 95% of the time he does.

 I'll settle for a player that makes the right play 90% of the time. Because with Tatum and Brown it's 50/50

[Who]

Simons 21ppg 4apg last season. 17ppf 4apg the previous year. Shot 44% FG but took a huge amount of threes. A little over half his shots were three pointers which he shot at 38% this year and 40% the year before. He shot 89% from the FT line both years but hardly ever got there. About two turnovers a game to his 4 assists so a 2:1 AST:TO ratio.

Oh yeah, Simons took 9 threes a game last year / this year. 7 the year before. High volume accurate outside shooter. Those 9 threes a game placed him 5th in the league in three point attempts per night. Exactly the sort of floor spacer who could enhance this team and play well off of Tatum (Tatum was 4th but only 35% 3PT%).

[Who]

One I was thinking of earlier was Jalen Brunson. How much difference a year makes, right?

Brunson was talked about in the past but as a 3rd option to replace Smart at PG and play alongside Jaylen & Tatum. Now, Brunson's star has shone. No longer an option.

So, would you trade Jaylen for Brunson?

I don't know whether NY does it but it's gotta at least be tempting for them. Jaylen is a very good player in his own right. One of the top scorers in the league. A guy who could take off on his own team. Or at least that is the sales pitch.

Boston gets a true PG. A guy who has matured into one of the most reliable and polished scoring guards in the league while also still managing to run his team well. A great fit next to Tatum. A great 1-2 punch of ball-handling guard and scoring forward.

[obnoxiousmime]

True, Brunson is another one of those players that now you would likely run to the phone to trade for. Unfortunately, Brunson to the Knicks being a done deal was kind of an open secret last season. After this year, there's no way Brunson is available. The Knicks are trying to build around him, not deal him.

[CelticSooner]

It’s great in theory but at the end of games the ball always runs through the J’s. That’s the bigger problem because neither guy particularly plays well off the ball. This team needs a system and structure to help them stop playing so stupid in the clutch. Mazzulla ball is not the answer.

[mr. dee]

Develop Davison. Joe should make him a rotation player this year especially if one of our guards in the roster leaves the team. Kid have a high ceiling if he reached it.

[Who]

The top 10 PGs in the league right now are impressive - Steph, Lillard, Haliburton, J Murray, D Fox, Morant, Trae, Garland, Brunson and Kyrie.

Next group contains all 3 of Boston's combo guards. So Smart, D White, Brogdon, CP3, Jrue Holiday (tops the group), VanVleet, McCollum, Conley. Then guys like Rozier, maybe D'Angelo Russell, Dinwiddie but they're a notch below the first group mentioned. Not sure whether Jrue should be added to the top group and expanded to 11 or no. Anyway.

The idea here is that Boston could make a lateral move for similar talent but more natural PG (Conley is a good example). But if they want a talent upgrade, they gotta go after one of those top 10 guys. I don't think they can get any of them without giving up Jaylen Brown. They're too good. They won't be available for anything less than Jaylen.

Garland may be the easiest to pry loose. Lillard is possible. Maybe Morant. Memphis seem pretty p---ed off at him. Trae another option as Atlanta tries to figure out how to move forwards.

Haliburton, Steph, J Murray, D Fox all look too difficult to pry away from their teams. Probably Brunson as well.

Kyrie is somewhat possible but I don't want to go down that road again. Not at a high price. Maybe at a low price like Smart and filler. But that won't be on the table. It'll be a high price or no deal. They'd rather keep Kyrie.

[Kernewek]

Brought this topic up years ago. Was mostly shot down during the Brad Steven's Era. People say. "Everyone is the Point guard" "It's position less basketball " Brad wants Everyone to be able to shoot, drive or pass"

 Bulcrap. You need am elite playmaker. If this team had prime Jason Kidd, or Nash, even Prime Rondo playing with Tatum and Brown.  That one player would make this a title team. 

 I don't know if Scoot Henderson is that good, I hear he's a very good passer maybe not elite. But it might be worth trading Brown for the possibility that he's a game changing PG.

 If you throw in Simon's you have a deal for Jaylen Brown.

Does this elite playmaker have to be a point guard?

I half agree with the premise - if this team had a hall of fame point guard in their prime (Kidd, Rondo, Nash, Paul, Stockton, Magic, ) they would be a title team - but... isn't that a bit chicken and egg? What if this team has rookie Deron Williams? Still a title team?

[cman88]

It’s great in theory but at the end of games the ball always runs through the J’s. That’s the bigger problem because neither guy particularly plays well off the ball. This team needs a system and structure to help them stop playing so stupid in the clutch. Mazzulla ball is not the answer.

I just made a post about this. Thats the crux of the whole issue here. Celtics don't have an offensive system they run.

its basically give the players to your stars and hope they make something happen every trip down the floor. That works sometimes, but its very easy to defend.

watch the warriors. they have stars but they run a movement based offense. It's not like curry and Thompson are standing around jacking up contested 3's.

[Roy H.]

I don't know if I agree.  I always thought that as Rondo became more and more of a part of our offense, the offense itself became less dangerous.  I like the idea of having multiple ball-handlers who share responsibilities.  There was a study a few years back, and the conclusion was that teams that had multiple ball-handlers who shared duties, rather than one "pass first PG" who handled the ball the most, were the most effective teams.  Think the Spurs with Manu/Parker, or the Cavs with Lebron/Kyrie.

Now, it's a different era, I guess, but I haven't seen that teams that have an elite passer and primary ball-handler are better than others.  I guess you could point to Jokic as an elite playmaker (not so much a ball-handler), but he's one of a kind.