Another win w/o a pouting Rondo

[CelticsFan9]

It isn't an issue of whether Rondo is a quality player.

It's an issue that he no longer fits with the group of players Ainge has assembled. That is quite clear, and it has been for awhile. As I've said before, he was a perfect fit with three veteran, slowing All-Star scorers.

He is not a fit at all - in fact, he is an impediment - with the group Ainge has assembled right now, led by two veterans who struggle to score every night.

Exacerbated by Rondo's growing laziness on the defensive end of the floor.

Confident Ainge will move him in the off-season. As he should.

I think Coach Bo is right in general.  I see the "problem" (if you want to call it that) with Rondo is that other teams have now universally figured him out and this will make it very difficult for him to change and just adopt the move the ball mentality that the current team is playing so well with.

This is a nuanced situation and hard to describe in a concise post.  Rondo is a good passer, no doubt, perhaps the best pure passer in the league, but he can't shoot (I know, he has a high EFg% but if you watch the games and come to the conclusion that Rondo is a good shooter, then just don't read any more of my post because you are not going to agree or understand any of it).

The problem is that Doc/Rondo can't figure out what to do with Rondo when he doesn't have the ball.  The other team doesn't cover him so it is like giving them another defender.  For a while they tried having him camp out at the extreme low post (almost under the basket) but that didn't really work.  So it always comes back to you might as well just let Rondo have the ball.  Then he dribbles around, compiles a ton of assists, and no one really likes playing with him (at least that is the story according to Doc).  Along the way, Rondo does make some fantastic plays but actually the team averages more assists when Rondo doesn't play.  For every easy dunk off a flashy pass, there is a shot against a double team because the other team isn't covering Rondo.

And defense, yes, our defense appears better without Rondo.  He seems to like to rebound, they count those, but he doesn't seem to care about just staying in front of him man and fighting through picks (there isn't a stat for that).  I know, I know, in the playoffs, he will be different.

Rondo is a player with unique skills but also some glaring weaknesses.  If we keep Rondo, we need to figure out a way to use him that doesn't kind of clog up the team.  Depending on what we get back, a trade may not be such a bad thing for the team either.

I've always wished Rondo would go into Avery Bradley-mode and make random cuts to the basket when he doesn't have the ball.

[BballTim]

It isn't an issue of whether Rondo is a quality player.

It's an issue that he no longer fits with the group of players Ainge has assembled. That is quite clear, and it has been for awhile. As I've said before, he was a perfect fit with three veteran, slowing All-Star scorers.

He is not a fit at all - in fact, he is an impediment - with the group Ainge has assembled right now, led by two veterans who struggle to score every night.

Exacerbated by Rondo's growing laziness on the defensive end of the floor.

Confident Ainge will move him in the off-season. As he should.

I think Coach Bo is right in general.  I see the "problem" (if you want to call it that) with Rondo is that other teams have now universally figured him out and this will make it very difficult for him to change and just adopt the move the ball mentality that the current team is playing so well with.

This is a nuanced situation and hard to describe in a concise post.  Rondo is a good passer, no doubt, perhaps the best pure passer in the league, but he can't shoot (I know, he has a high EFg% but if you watch the games and come to the conclusion that Rondo is a good shooter, then just don't read any more of my post because you are not going to agree or understand any of it).

The problem is that Doc/Rondo can't figure out what to do with Rondo when he doesn't have the ball.  The other team doesn't cover him so it is like giving them another defender.  For a while they tried having him camp out at the extreme low post (almost under the basket) but that didn't really work.  So it always comes back to you might as well just let Rondo have the ball.  Then he dribbles around, compiles a ton of assists, and no one really likes playing with him (at least that is the story according to Doc).  Along the way, Rondo does make some fantastic plays but actually the team averages more assists when Rondo doesn't play.  For every easy dunk off a flashy pass, there is a shot against a double team because the other team isn't covering Rondo.

  The team's offense is playing about the same without Rondo in spite of playing the bulk of their games without him against bad defensive teams. The team has a lower percentage of their shots assisted when Rondo isn't playing. And the Doc story about people not wanting to play with Rondo was from his rookie year and completely unrelated to what you were attributing it to.

[TheTruthFot18]

TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

How far did KG take the wolves in 1997 or Pierce in 2000? Or Kobe or Lebron in their 2nd year? He was clearly overshadowed by HOF players in/late in their prime.

Now look at where the above players were by their 4th, 5th, 6th years and has Rondo not done the same in terms of bringing success to the team?

[esel1000]

I can't believe we're really having an argument about this... look any player, no matter how good, sometimes has to change parts of their game for the better of the team. Rondo isnt perfect and has made plenty of mistakes, but I have witnessed him do way too much for this team, especially in the moments that matter, to ever say this teams better off without him right now.

This is the regular season... without Rondo last year, we'd have lost to the Sixers. Without him, wouldn't have been to game 7 vs the Heat. So he doesn't show up every regular season game? Big whoop, hes good enough that he doesn't have to put his full effort against a loser team like the Bobcats. PP and KG have games where they seem to not show up and I dont see ANYBODY getting on them for it.

When Rondo came back vs the Heat a couple of seasons ago and played with a dislocated elbow, I knew we truly had a player with heart. You cant teach that kind of heart, and losing it never makes your team better. But ok some of you GMs on here seem to think you know better, so go ahead, do Danny's job for him  and trade him for crap so we can truly fall back to mediocrity.

Sounds fun

[SCeltic34]

I know that this is a basketball discussion board, but seriously, wait until the playoffs come to assess whether this team is better without Rondo.  I have a strong feeling these silly threads will disappear when it's all said and done.

[jdz101]

I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

[BballTim]

I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

[jdz101]

I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

[Celtics18]

I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

Which Dallas teams are you referring to?  Their championship squad led the league in assists per game. 

If you don't have a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, a Carmelo Anthony, or a Kobe Bryant on your team, you'd better be good at moving the ball around to get open shots. 

Or, you better have a guy like Rondo who can get open shots for others. 

[CelticConcourse]

I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

Which Dallas teams are you referring to?  Their championship squad led the league in assists per game. 

If you don't have a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, a Carmelo Anthony, or a Kobe Bryant on your team, you'd better be good at moving the ball around to get open shots. 

Or, you better have a guy like Rondo who can get open shots for others.

We have a pretty balanced attack.

If all goes well, all these players could technically explode for 25 points in a game:
Bradley/Lee/Bass/Crawford/Williams

For 30:
Green

For 40:
KG/Pierce

Gotta hope for some hot games, like Bass's explosive third quarter last year, 17 points

[ejk3489]

I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

Which Dallas teams are you referring to?  Their championship squad led the league in assists per game. 

If you don't have a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, a Carmelo Anthony, or a Kobe Bryant on your team, you'd better be good at moving the ball around to get open shots. 

Or, you better have a guy like Rondo who can get open shots for others.

We have a pretty balanced attack.

If all goes well, all these players could technically explode for 25 points in a game:
Bradley/Lee/Bass/Crawford/Williams

For 30:
Green

For 40:
KG/Pierce

Gotta hope for some hot games, like Bass's explosive third quarter last year, 17 points

I see what you're saying, but those scenarios are a pretty big stretch.

Lee has only scored more than 25 points 8 times in his career, Bass twice, Avery/TWill once...

Crawford, Green, and Terry are the only guys (aside from Pierce/KG) that I could see going off for more than 20-25 points in a game.

[CelticConcourse]

I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

Which Dallas teams are you referring to?  Their championship squad led the league in assists per game. 

If you don't have a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, a Carmelo Anthony, or a Kobe Bryant on your team, you'd better be good at moving the ball around to get open shots. 

Or, you better have a guy like Rondo who can get open shots for others.

We have a pretty balanced attack.

If all goes well, all these players could technically explode for 25 points in a game:
Bradley/Lee/Bass/Crawford/Williams

For 30:
Green

For 40:
KG/Pierce

Gotta hope for some hot games, like Bass's explosive third quarter last year, 17 points

I see what you're saying, but those scenarios are a pretty big stretch.

Lee has only scored more than 25 points 8 times in his career, Bass twice, Avery/TWill once...

Crawford, Green, and Terry are the only guys (aside from Pierce/KG) that I could see going off for more than 20-25 points in a game.

Also, if things get right, we hold teams to just 90ppg so we don't need to score as much.

If the Pitbulls keep playin well, Green stays great on D, KG keeps the center strong, we can afford to score less. Then we just need a few 20 point games from Green and Terry, fully possible.

Terry, Pierce, Lee, Bradley, one of them needs to get hot from downtown or we can't win. We need threes. Green is converting at a great clip, but Terry needs to step up like he did vs MIA. One big game from downtown opens up the paint for the rest of the series.

[saltlover]

I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

Which Dallas teams are you referring to?  Their championship squad led the league in assists per game. 

If you don't have a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, a Carmelo Anthony, or a Kobe Bryant on your team, you'd better be good at moving the ball around to get open shots. 

Or, you better have a guy like Rondo who can get open shots for others.

We have a pretty balanced attack.

If all goes well, all these players could technically explode for 25 points in a game:
Bradley/Lee/Bass/Crawford/Williams

For 30:
Green

For 40:
KG/Pierce

Gotta hope for some hot games, like Bass's explosive third quarter last year, 17 points

KG score 40???  For real?  I did a quick scan of his game log, and I don't think he's scored 30 or more in a game since his first year in Boston.  I love KG, but he does not have a 40 point game in him, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he never cracks 30 again.  Maybe I missed a game, but 25 is a great output from him at this point.  He's not a scorer at this point in his career.

[LarBrd33]

I mean obviously I was on the "I love rondo, but he's obscenely overrated" train well before he got injured, but this isn't really how I wanted this to play out.  I hoped he would have been exposed after we had traded him for valuable pieces... Not through a season ending and trade-value-killing injury.  Bummer

[jdz101]

I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

Which Dallas teams are you referring to?  Their championship squad led the league in assists per game. 

If you don't have a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, a Carmelo Anthony, or a Kobe Bryant on your team, you'd better be good at moving the ball around to get open shots. 

Or, you better have a guy like Rondo who can get open shots for others.

I'm talking about the early 2000's mavs that were amazing offensively and got to the conference finals. They had a seriously good point guard in steve nash, but were like 9th or 10th one year and around 14th the next for assists.

My point was that one player or a team getting lots of assists doesn't necessarily mean that you have a good offense. It is a result of the system you're running. The large assist numbers by rondo lead to some fans (especially on here) overrating what he means to a team's overall offensive production. Of course he is a benefit because he is a great player, but high numbers of assists to rondo don't necessarily lead to high offensive production from his teammates.

I was never knocking rondo at all. All I'm saying is that he benefits from a system and so do his numbers.