CelticsStrong

Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Neurotic Guy on November 20, 2017, 08:36:53 PM

Title: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: Neurotic Guy on November 20, 2017, 08:36:53 PM
I'm not all that good at this kind of analysis as I don't watch enough NBA basketball outside of the Celtics to develop valid opinions... But, I took a quick look at rosters and tried to pick out the possible tandem contenders to Brown-Tatum.   I tried to go "under 22", but ended up expanding to 23.  Regardless, the Brown-Tatum combined age of 40 is younger than any viable young duo.

The question isn't who you'd trade for but is there a young duo you'd rather have as your future cornerstones than Brown-Tatum?

Denver:   Jokic-Murray
Indiana:   Turner-Sabonis
LAL:   Ingram-Ball or Kuzma
Bucks:   Giannis-Parker
TWolves:   Towns-Wiggins
Knicks:   Porzingis-Ntilikina
Magic:   Gordon-Isaac
Sixers:   Embiid-Simmons
Suns:    Booker-Criss

Apologies if I missed any strong candidates or included any that don't deserve consideration.   

My under-informed opinion is that the Bucks, TWolves and Sixers are in the running v. Brown-Tatum.  The Bucks possibly with an asterisk because I would have included Giannis with any Buck under 23 as he is already a top ten (maybe 5) player.  Embiid-Simmons look awfully strong to me -- maybe the best if not for injury worries.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: gouki88 on November 20, 2017, 08:50:57 PM
Embiid-Simmons and Giannis-Parker are probably the ones I'd consider, but they both have significant injury concerns for one player.

I can't think of any duo I'd swap them for without concern
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: Jvalin on November 20, 2017, 09:21:08 PM
for sure
Embiid-Simmons
Giannis-Brogdon (at this point I'd rather have Brogdon than Parker)
Towns-Wiggins

not sure/definitely worth considering
Porzingis-Ntilikina (I'm really high on Ntilikina)
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: Neurotic Guy on November 20, 2017, 09:34:48 PM
for sure
Embiid-Simmons
Giannis-Brogdon (at this point I'd rather have Brogdon than Parker)
Towns-Wiggins

probably
Porzingis-Ntilikina (I'm really high on Ntilikina)

I didn't include Brogden because he's 24 (actually, almost 25). 
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: gouki88 on November 20, 2017, 09:35:46 PM
for sure
Embiid-Simmons
Giannis-Brogdon (at this point I'd rather have Brogdon than Parker)
Towns-Wiggins

probably
Porzingis-Ntilikina (I'm really high on Ntilikina)

I didn't include Brogden because he's 24 (actually, almost 25).
If Brogdon is included ours should be Kyrie and one of Tatum/Brown ;D
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: KGs Knee on November 20, 2017, 09:37:21 PM
I don't think the Bucks duo belongs on that list as Gia is already in his 5th season and on his second contract.

That aside, the only duo I would place as definitively above Brown-Tatum is Embiid-Simmons.  None of the other duos have a secondary player as good as whichever of Brown-Tatum you want to consider the 'lesser' of the duo.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: Jvalin on November 20, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
@Neurotic Guy, gouki88

Fair enough. Still, I'd rather have Giannis-Parker than Tatum-Brown.

I don't think the Bucks duo belongs on that list as Gia is already in his 5th season and on his second contract.

That aside, the only duo I would place as definitively above Brown-Tatum is Embiid-Simmons.  None of the other duos have a secondary player as good as whichever of Brown-Tatum you want to consider the 'lesser' of the duo.
What about the Wolves duo?

KAT >> Tatum
Hate to say it, but right now Brown is a poor man's Wiggins. The age gap between them isn't that big. Brown is just a year and a half younger than Wiggins.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: KGs Knee on November 20, 2017, 10:20:35 PM
@Neurotic Guy, gouki88

Fair enough. Still, I'd rather have Giannis-Parker than Tatum-Brown.

I don't think the Bucks duo belongs on that list as Gia is already in his 5th season and on his second contract.

That aside, the only duo I would place as definitively above Brown-Tatum is Embiid-Simmons.  None of the other duos have a secondary player as good as whichever of Brown-Tatum you want to consider the 'lesser' of the duo.
What about the Wolves duo?

KAT >> Tatum
Hate to say it, but right now Brown is a poor man's Wiggins. The age gap between them isn't that big. Brown is just a year and a half younger than Wiggins.


Brown is already a better player than Wiggins.  Wiggins is in his 4th year, Brown is in his 2nd.  By the time Brown is in his 4th year, he's likely to be way better than Wiggins.

KAT is most certainly better than Tatum right now, but KAT has kind of plateaued. I'm not sure he's the mega-star people thought he was going to be.  He seems rather indifferent on defense.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: keevsnick on November 21, 2017, 01:00:12 AM
@Neurotic Guy, gouki88

Fair enough. Still, I'd rather have Giannis-Parker than Tatum-Brown.

I don't think the Bucks duo belongs on that list as Gia is already in his 5th season and on his second contract.

That aside, the only duo I would place as definitively above Brown-Tatum is Embiid-Simmons.  None of the other duos have a secondary player as good as whichever of Brown-Tatum you want to consider the 'lesser' of the duo.
What about the Wolves duo?

KAT >> Tatum
Hate to say it, but right now Brown is a poor man's Wiggins. The age gap between them isn't that big. Brown is just a year and a half younger than Wiggins.


Brown is already a better player than Wiggins.  Wiggins is in his 4th year, Brown is in his 2nd.  By the time Brown is in his 4th year, he's likely to be way better than Wiggins.

KAT is most certainly better than Tatum right now, but KAT has kind of plateaued. I'm not sure he's the mega-star people thought he was going to be.  He seems rather indifferent on defense.

You could certainly make the argument that Brown is a better player than Wiggins. Scoring wise Wiggins has the edge, but Brown has a higher scoring efficiency s far this season. He's a better rebounder, a far superior defender.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: jdz101 on November 21, 2017, 01:11:47 AM

Hate to say it, but right now Brown is a poor man's Wiggins. The age gap between them isn't that big. Brown is just a year and a half younger than Wiggins.

No.

Just no.

In terms of on-court impact Brown craps all over wiggins at a younger age.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: byennie on November 21, 2017, 01:44:52 AM
Hate to say it, but right now Brown is a poor man's Wiggins. The age gap between them isn't that big. Brown is just a year and a half younger than Wiggins.

Hate to tell you, but 1.5 years of age and 2 years of NBA experience at this stage of development is an eternity.

It’s early, but Brown is in fact outplaying Wiggins this season.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: celticsclay on November 21, 2017, 02:06:06 AM
Hate to say it, but right now Brown is a poor man's Wiggins. The age gap between them isn't that big. Brown is just a year and a half younger than Wiggins.

Hate to tell you, but 1.5 years of age and 2 years of NBA experience at this stage of development is an eternity.

It’s early, but Brown is in fact outplaying Wiggins this season.

Got to agree with you. This is a terrible take. At browns age 2 seasons is an eternity. Look how much he has gotten better in the last 8 months alone!
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: trickybilly on November 21, 2017, 02:23:29 AM
I know the debate about the importance of defense is like arguing between Democrats and Republicans on this blog, but people really need to tune into a Wolves game and watch Wiggins on the defensive end...
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: Beat LA on November 21, 2017, 02:26:25 AM
@Neurotic Guy, gouki88

Fair enough. Still, I'd rather have Giannis-Parker than Tatum-Brown.

I don't think the Bucks duo belongs on that list as Gia is already in his 5th season and on his second contract.

That aside, the only duo I would place as definitively above Brown-Tatum is Embiid-Simmons.  None of the other duos have a secondary player as good as whichever of Brown-Tatum you want to consider the 'lesser' of the duo.
What about the Wolves duo?

KAT >> Tatum
Hate to say it, but right now Brown is a poor man's Wiggins. The age gap between them isn't that big. Brown is just a year and a half younger than Wiggins.


Brown is already a better player than Wiggins.  Wiggins is in his 4th year, Brown is in his 2nd.  By the time Brown is in his 4th year, he's likely to be way better than Wiggins.

KAT is most certainly better than Tatum right now, but KAT has kind of plateaued. I'm not sure he's the mega-star people thought he was going to be.  He seems rather indifferent on defense.

Agree on Towns.  Not only is he a poor defender, but he just doesn't seem to have the personality to be a number one option, despite his stats, if that makes any sense.  It's probably just me, though.

As for Brown vs. Wiggins, Jaylen has, by far, the better motor, but Wiggins has a tremendous advantage insofar as skills are concerned, imo, with the most glaring example being footwork.  That doesn't mean that I'd take Wiggins over Brown, especially because "Maple Jordan":laugh: doesn't rebound or defend and was certainly not worth that max contract, in my view, but you can't ignore Jaylen's rather glaring deficiencies, at least to me, anyway, not that that counts for anything, lol :laugh:.

Honestly, I'm quite impressed with Brown's rather accelerated development this year considering that he still has no midrange game, a sub par handle, and the fact that, in terms of assists, the dude is like the Hassan Whiteside of shooting guards, lol :laugh:. I do like his post game, as I've stated previously, but right now he's really just spotting up and going all the way to the basket for a layup, and for the life of me I simply cannot understand why teams don't try to stop him short and force the guy to shoot a midrange jumper, because he really struggles with that part of the game as of right now.  Just thought for food :laugh:.

I know the debate about the importance of defense is like arguing between Democrats and Republicans on this blog, but people really need to tune into a Wolves game and watch Wiggins on the defensive end...

You don't even have to go that far.  Just look at his rebounding numbers.  Wiggins is to rebounding as Brown is to passing, lol :laugh:, with the latter now going three straight games without recording a single assist for the second time this year :o.  Not one.  How is that even possible?  I thought that we traded Bradley ;) :laugh:.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: bopna on November 21, 2017, 04:37:00 AM
Kuzma and Ball.....lol

Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 21, 2017, 06:56:54 AM
I am happy with Brown and Tatum, so no thanks
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 21, 2017, 07:29:08 AM
CBS thinks Rozier -Smart is the bomb
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: Eja117 on November 21, 2017, 07:32:23 AM
Towns/Wiggins is tempting
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: JohnBoy65 on November 21, 2017, 07:56:40 AM
@Neurotic Guy, gouki88

Fair enough. Still, I'd rather have Giannis-Parker than Tatum-Brown.

I don't think the Bucks duo belongs on that list as Gia is already in his 5th season and on his second contract.

That aside, the only duo I would place as definitively above Brown-Tatum is Embiid-Simmons.  None of the other duos have a secondary player as good as whichever of Brown-Tatum you want to consider the 'lesser' of the duo.
What about the Wolves duo?

KAT >> Tatum
Hate to say it, but right now Brown is a poor man's Wiggins. The age gap between them isn't that big. Brown is just a year and a half younger than Wiggins.

I don't think anyone would argue that Tatum's offensive game is better than KATs, but I think Tatum is significantly better than KAT on defense. With that, I think KAT and Tatum are closer than you suggest.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: TheSundanceKid on November 21, 2017, 07:58:56 AM
Towns and Wiggins, Embiid and Simmons (but I would wince every time Embiid jumped). I think Brown and Tatum have the potential to be better than both of those pairings though, it just depends on whether you would take the risk of that potential over the certainty of what the others have achieved to this point.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: Moranis on November 21, 2017, 08:16:45 AM
Embiid/Simmons and Towns/Wiggins are obvious.  I'm not counting the Bucks since Giannis is on contract 2, though Giannis and pretty much anyone else is better since Giannis is so good.  That brings me to Denver.  Murray is clearly the worst player of the 4, but I think Jokic is probably the best player and thus I'd consider Denver because having the best player of a group should always be a consideration.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: moiso on November 21, 2017, 08:17:01 AM
I might prefer Brown and Tatum over the entire list.  If Embiid stays pretty healthy the Sixers duo is the choice but I don't really expect that to happen.  The only other duo that I'd have to consider is Giannis and whoever- not because of whoever, but there is a chance that Giannis becomes far better than an allstar level player.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: slamtheking on November 21, 2017, 08:45:18 AM
tough call. 

first pair that came to mind was Embiid and Simmons but the health issues with Embiid a re a serious concerns. 

Wiggins and KAT are another likely pair but their lack of commitment to defense and an all-around game are a concern for me as well. 

Giannis may fit the age bracket but he's on his second contract.  hard to consider him.  not really someone to pair him with based on the criteria --> Parker can't stay healthy and Brogdon is too old.

I honestly wouldn't take any other pair over Brown and Tatum at this point.
- Brown and Tatum are both solid scorers with the potential to get to elite (especially Tatum)
- both are solid rebounders
- both are solid defenders with potential to be top defenders (especially Brown)
- both have a high motor and have shown a drive to win and do all the little things that are needed to win.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: The One on November 21, 2017, 08:51:29 AM
I know the debate about the importance of defense is like arguing between Democrats and Republicans on this blog, but people really need to tune into a Wolves game and watch Wiggins on the defensive end...

I can't do that...I fear my eyes would not stop bleeding.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: wdleehi on November 21, 2017, 11:47:35 AM
There are individuals I would take over them (Giannis, Towns, Simmons)

There are individuals I would never take (Embiid) because I don't think they are going to last health wise.



But I find it hard to find a duo I would take.   Maybe the T-Wolves.   
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: libermaniac on November 21, 2017, 11:55:48 AM
Smart/Rozier  :o
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: Boise To Boston on November 21, 2017, 12:14:55 PM
If it's possible, I think 2-way players are VERY underrated in this league.  The fact that "best PG" conversations always includes turn-styles on the defensive end exemplifies that.  When you get an entire rotation of guys to buy in on defense, it's special, and that's why we've won 16 in a row.  For that reason, the only duo I take over Brown/Tatum is Embiid/Simmons with that caveat that both stay healthy. 

Would I trade the duos straight up?  I'm not a gambler so no, i wouldn't.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: saltlover on November 21, 2017, 12:15:07 PM
No one for Jokic/Harris or Jokic/Murray? Jokic is clearly doing the heavy lifting for either pair, but the second half of either is no slouch.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: johnnygreen on November 21, 2017, 12:54:34 PM
With the direction the league is going of positionless basketball, I don't think you could find a better duo. They are highly competitive and are willing to sacrifice for the betterment of the team. I love their ability to defend, rebound, and remain poised during crunch time. Both guys seem very motivated to get better every day.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: Tr1boy on November 21, 2017, 01:09:33 PM
Nobody

Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: Fireworks_Boom! on November 21, 2017, 01:16:10 PM
Wall/Beal is a noticeable absence from this list.

While I'm excited for our young guys, I would rather have a couple of the pairs mentioned over our own.

Towns/Wiggins
Greek God/any other player on MIL roster
Wall/Beal
Davis/any other player on NOP roster
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: saltlover on November 21, 2017, 01:20:19 PM
Wall/Beal is a noticeable absence from this list.

While I'm excited for our young guys, I would rather have a couple of the pairs mentioned over our own.

Towns/Wiggins
Greek God/any other player on MIL roster
Wall/Beal
Davis/any other player on NOP roster

I think we were focused on players with 2-3 years in the NBA, not players entering their 8th and 6th seasons.  Wall is 27.  That’s not old, but it certainly isn’t young in basketball years.  If he were to be included, people would be asking about trios and including Kyrie.
Title: Re: Which young duo would you rather have than Brown-Tatum?
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on November 21, 2017, 01:30:25 PM
I could see the argument for Embiid-Simmons and Giannis-Parker.

Serious concerns for both of those duos. Each duo has one guy who can't shoot and one guy with a huge history of injuries.

I like the chances of our young duo because they both can shoot, pass, drive, rebound, and defend, without having a concerning injury history. If every player reached their "ceiling," the Brown-Tatum duo could go toe-to-toe with the other duos and win, so its not completely lop-sided.

Because of durability question marks and general all-around abilities, I like our duo's chances at reaching their ceiling better than the other duos.