Help - Need Info about Ainge and rebuilding

[Hoops]

I'm calling on my friends at Celticsblog for a little help. I've been having a little email discussion with a friend (coincidentally a Lakers fan, but at least he's rational) about the Celtics. He feels like Ainge doesn't deserve credit for building the Celtics into a championship team. Here's a couple of direct quotes:

"I just don't buy that Ainge was, all along, planning on collecting talent with only long-term potential in hopes of acquiring somebody else's superstars."

"It doesn't take a lot of foresight or basketball IQ to think that trading Jefferson and a bunch of garbage in exchange for KG is a good idea....especially when KG is still in the prime of his career and your other star (Pierce) is demanding more talent and threatening to leave if he doesn't get it."

First of all, I'm quite certain that there are people on Celticsblog who agree with these statements. That's fine. Chime in if you want to. But I'm almost certain that Ainge essentially said, on many occasions before the big trades (Allen and KG) went down, that stockpiling assets for the purpose of acquiring superstar talent was exactly his plan. Who knows if KG and Allen were his targets all along, but I recall that his plan was to trade his chips for proven talent.

Can anyone else dredge up some quotes of Ainge saying this was his plan?

Again, to those naysayers, I understand that acquiring Allen and KG was fortuitous, but it's simply unfair to say that Ainge doesn't deserve credit for putting the team in a position to make those trades.

Help?

[BudweiserCeltic]

I remember some of the reported offers teams made for KG, and they were worse than what the Celtics' offered should at least tell you that ""It doesn't take a lot of foresight or basketball IQ to think that trading Jefferson and a bunch of garbage in exchange for KG is a good idea..." is quite an incorrect assesment; especially when you measure the sentiments of the Celtics' fanbase at the time; many who thought that the trade was a bad idea. Some still do.

[BballTim]

  Not only did Ainge have enough chips to trade for Garnett, but he had enough trade chips for Garnett after already acquiring Ray Allen (with a top 5 pick, DW and Wally). He in fact had enough ammo to acquire both players while keeping his best player (Pierce) plus 2 of his 3 best young players (Rondo and Perk). That takes a lot of planning. If we'd have won the lottery we could have gone forward with Pierce, Jefferson, Oden, Rondo and Perk and we'd still have Theo and Wally's contracts. Also KG was rumored to be on the block before that offseason so it's not like Ainge didn't know he was a possibility.

[RAcker]

Let me make this simple for everyone:

Lakers Fans = Morons

[QuinielaBox]

Let me break it down for you pure and simple.

There are three ways to build a championship team:

1) Draft Superstars and spend your FA money on role players
2) Trade for Superstars and spend FA money on role players
3) Clear your cap space in hopes of signing one or two superstars.

Boston, not by choice, broke through with method 2. They were moving up using method 1 (Al Jefferson, draft pick in 07, Rondo, and Pierce) anyway but reached the summit instantaneously by trading for Ray Allan and Kevin Garnett while keeping Pierce, Rondo, and Perkins. Plus they drafted well in the 2nd round (Powe, Davis, TA - late 1st rounder) Plus they added Eddie House with an exception salary slot.

The Lakers used a combination of 1 and 2 to be a threat.
The Caveliers used 1 to be a threat.
The Hawks and Blazers both used 1 to be threats.
San Antonio used 1 to be a threat.

So far no team out there has bought themselves a championship using FA. You can thank the limitations of a salary cap to keep the big spenders (New York and Dallas) in check.

[RAcker]

Let me break it down for you pure and simple.

There are three ways to build a championship team:

1) Draft Superstars and spend your FA money on role players
2) Trade for Superstars and spend FA money on role players
3) Clear your cap space in hopes of signing one or two superstars.

Boston, not by choice, broke through with method 2. They were moving up using method 1 (Al Jefferson, draft pick in 07, Rondo, and Pierce) anyway but reached the summit instantaneously by trading for Ray Allan and Kevin Garnett while keeping Pierce, Rondo, and Perkins. Plus they drafted well in the 2nd round (Powe, Davis, TA - late 1st rounder) Plus they added Eddie House with an exception salary slot.

The Lakers used a combination of 1 and 2 to be a threat.
The Caveliers used 1 to be a threat.
The Hawks and Blazers both used 1 to be threats.
San Antonio used 1 to be a threat.

So far no team out there has bought themselves a championship using FA. You can thank the limitations of a salary cap to keep the big spenders (New York and Dallas) in check.

Admittedly, this was a more well thought out answer to this question, but I still stand by my simplistic statement of fact.

[Redz]

Let me break it down for you pure and simple.

There are three ways to build a championship team:

1) Draft Superstars and spend your FA money on role players
2) Trade for Superstars and spend FA money on role players
3) Clear your cap space in hopes of signing one or two superstars.

Boston, not by choice, broke through with method 2. They were moving up using method 1 (Al Jefferson, draft pick in 07, Rondo, and Pierce) anyway but reached the summit instantaneously by trading for Ray Allan and Kevin Garnett while keeping Pierce, Rondo, and Perkins. Plus they drafted well in the 2nd round (Powe, Davis, TA - late 1st rounder) Plus they added Eddie House with an exception salary slot.

The Lakers used a combination of 1 and 2 to be a threat.
The Caveliers used 1 to be a threat.
The Hawks and Blazers both used 1 to be threats.
San Antonio used 1 to be a threat.

So far no team out there has bought themselves a championship using FA. You can thank the limitations of a salary cap to keep the big spenders (New York and Dallas) in check.

LA with Shaq was pretty close to buying a title with a free agent

[QuinielaBox]

Let me break it down for you pure and simple.

There are three ways to build a championship team:

1) Draft Superstars and spend your FA money on role players
2) Trade for Superstars and spend FA money on role players
3) Clear your cap space in hopes of signing one or two superstars.

Boston, not by choice, broke through with method 2. They were moving up using method 1 (Al Jefferson, draft pick in 07, Rondo, and Pierce) anyway but reached the summit instantaneously by trading for Ray Allan and Kevin Garnett while keeping Pierce, Rondo, and Perkins. Plus they drafted well in the 2nd round (Powe, Davis, TA - late 1st rounder) Plus they added Eddie House with an exception salary slot.

The Lakers used a combination of 1 and 2 to be a threat.
The Caveliers used 1 to be a threat.
The Hawks and Blazers both used 1 to be threats.
San Antonio used 1 to be a threat.

So far no team out there has bought themselves a championship using FA. You can thank the limitations of a salary cap to keep the big spenders (New York and Dallas) in check.

LA with Shaq was pretty close to buying a title with a free agent

I thought LAL traded for those two - one aquiring draft rights to Kobe from Charlotte and two trading for Shaq for flotsam to Orlando (to be coached by COY Doc Rivers). That was truly a cursed time in the NBA for Celtics fans.

[bdm860]

I think the skill that makes Ainge a great GM is his drafting ability.  Sure, he's picked some guys that haven't panned out, but he's picked alot more winners than losers.

Ainge started in 2003 right?
Since then, this is who the Celtics essentially drafted (I know some players were drafted by other teams, but when they are immediately traded to the C's it as if the C's drafted them, and I'm not including this year because it's too early to tell on those guys ):

Marcus Banks (1st round)
Kendrick Perkins (1st round)
Brandon Hunter (2nd round)
Al Jefferson (1st round)
Delonte West (1st round)
Tony Allen (1st round)
Justin Reed (2nd round)
Gerald Green (1st round)
Ryan Gomes (2nd round)
Rajon Rondo (1st round)
Leon Powe (2nd round)
Gabe Pruitt (2nd round)
Glen Davis (2nd round)

That's 13 players, 7 in the first round, 6 in the second.

11 out of 13 are still in the NBA , 85% success rate
7 out of 7 first rounders still in the NBA, 100% success rate
4 out of 6 second rounders till in the NBA, 67% success rate

I'm not sure the numbers on other GM's, but those appear to be extremely high success rates especially with no lottery picks, and also when lottery picks in that time frame like Mike Sweetney and Luke Jackson aren't even in the NBA.  Just think of our lottery picks from past GM's when we drafted guys like Kedrick Brown and Jerome Moiso and it's a complete 180.  Can any other GM say his last 7 first round picks are all still in the NBA or that all first round picks in the last 5 years are still in the NBA?  (Legitmate question, I don't know, but I doubt many).

The jury is still out on Pruitt but for the sake of argument let's say he fails and is out of the league soon, that would still be a 50% success rate with second round picks (and it's my belief that Gomes, Powe, and Davis could play and contribute to any team in the league, also with the way Bill Walker is looking that success rate is probably about to go higher too).  You think any other GM has a 50% success rate of guys drafted in the second round who actually contribute?

I think Ainge is so-so on trades, but sometimes you got to look at the trades leading up to other trades too:
Ainge essentially traded Eric Williams/Tony Battie for Ricky Davis for Wally Szczerbiak for Ray Allen. It seems like he upgraded each time too me.  How many GM's have done that?

[cordobes]

  Not only did Ainge have enough chips to trade for Garnett, but he had enough trade chips for Garnett after already acquiring Ray Allen (with a top 5 pick, DW and Wally). He in fact had enough ammo to acquire both players while keeping his best player (Pierce) plus 2 of his 3 best young players (Rondo and Perk). That takes a lot of planning. If we'd have won the lottery we could have gone forward with Pierce, Jefferson, Oden, Rondo and Perk and we'd still have Theo and Wally's contracts. Also KG was rumored to be on the block before that offseason so it's not like Ainge didn't know he was a possibility.

I'd just add: plus Powe and Big Baby who were pretty useful as bench players as well.

[nickagneta]

Did this Laker fan friend have a comment about how his current team was constructed and the garbage that the Lakers gave up for one Pau Gasol? Because my guess is it doesn't take a whole lot of basketball IQ to trade Kwame Brown, Marc Gasol's rights, Jarvis Crittendon and a pick to Memphis for Gasol either.

At least Minnesota got back a future superstar in Jefferson.

I think your friend is just thinking it's unfair that Danny could talk two GM's in the league into letting go of 2 top 20 superstars in the league for a bunch of unprovens. Believe me if LA could have done it, they would have. But they didn't want to give up Andrew Bynum because he is going to be some future superstar savior. Hehehehe, I bet that if they had that decision to do all over again knowing what they know now, they would probably have made the trade.

[Hoops]

Did this Laker fan friend have a comment about how his current team was constructed and the garbage that the Lakers gave up for one Pau Gasol? Because my guess is it doesn't take a whole lot of basketball IQ to trade Kwame Brown, Marc Gasol's rights, Jarvis Crittendon and a pick to Memphis for Gasol either.

At least Minnesota got back a future superstar in Jefferson.

I think your friend is just thinking it's unfair that Danny could talk two GM's in the league into letting go of 2 top 20 superstars in the league for a bunch of unprovens. Believe me if LA could have done it, they would have. But they didn't want to give up Andrew Bynum because he is going to be some future superstar savior. Hehehehe, I bet that if they had that decision to do all over again knowing what they know now, they would probably have made the trade.

Good point about Bynum. In fairness to my friend, he willingly admitted that the Gasol trade was a total gift.

Thanks to all for all the good comments (ammo) so far...

[mikeford]

Let me break it down for you pure and simple.

There are three ways to build a championship team:

1) Draft Superstars and spend your FA money on role players
2) Trade for Superstars and spend FA money on role players
3) Clear your cap space in hopes of signing one or two superstars.

Boston, not by choice, broke through with method 2. They were moving up using method 1 (Al Jefferson, draft pick in 07, Rondo, and Pierce) anyway but reached the summit instantaneously by trading for Ray Allan and Kevin Garnett while keeping Pierce, Rondo, and Perkins. Plus they drafted well in the 2nd round (Powe, Davis, TA - late 1st rounder) Plus they added Eddie House with an exception salary slot.

The Lakers used a combination of 1 and 2 to be a threat.
The Caveliers used 1 to be a threat.
The Hawks and Blazers both used 1 to be threats.
San Antonio used 1 to be a threat.

So far no team out there has bought themselves a championship using FA. You can thank the limitations of a salary cap to keep the big spenders (New York and Dallas) in check.

LA with Shaq was pretty close to buying a title with a free agent

I thought LAL traded for those two - one aquiring draft rights to Kobe from Charlotte and two trading for Shaq for flotsam to Orlando (to be coached by COY Doc Rivers). That was truly a cursed time in the NBA for Celtics fans.

Traded for Kobe's draft rights, yes

Shaq, no

After the 1995–96 season, O'Neal left the Orlando Magic to join the Los Angeles Lakers after being enticed by a seven-year, $122 million contract.

[Redz]

Did this Laker fan friend have a comment about how his current team was constructed and the garbage that the Lakers gave up for one Pau Gasol? Because my guess is it doesn't take a whole lot of basketball IQ to trade Kwame Brown, Marc Gasol's rights, Jarvis Crittendon and a pick to Memphis for Gasol either.

At least Minnesota got back a future superstar in Jefferson.

I think your friend is just thinking it's unfair that Danny could talk two GM's in the league into letting go of 2 top 20 superstars in the league for a bunch of unprovens. Believe me if LA could have done it, they would have. But they didn't want to give up Andrew Bynum because he is going to be some future superstar savior. Hehehehe, I bet that if they had that decision to do all over again knowing what they know now, they would probably have made the trade.

Tell him all that Nick said then add that the Lakers are stupid and so he is he for rooting for them 

[Michael Anthony]

Ainge's genius was his ability to remain flexible while selling more tickets than his record would imply.

Of course it all began with the Jefferson and Perkins drafts, but after that he tried to take this team in different directions at different times - but with the end goal of building a contender. At one point, he tried to move Pierce for Chris Paul; on another occasion he made a move for the Oden-Durant sweepstakes. He always knew that a draft pick was worth more than an average rookie, so he sold them when he could.

When the chance arrose to move a bad contract, an middling player, and an average rookie for Ray Allen, he took it. If Garnett did not happen, he would have continued trying to build a contender.