The Prospect Watch

[BudweiserCeltic]

Yes, but this is the first game that this has happened in - both Walker and Giddens have been the two feature options for the first 6 games.

This was a byproduct of injury - both are very minor - the two will be back to business by the next game or so...and both have been playing very strong basketball leading up to this game...

I've watched two games, and in those two games pretty much the same thing has happened. Seems like I'm bad luck for them... maybe I should stop watching.

I put the majority of the blame on the PG who sucks ass, and their bigs don't know how to play an inside-outside game.

[Atzar]

Well, there's a reason that they're in the D League and not competing for a spot on an NBA roster...

[BillfromBoston]

IMO both of these guys are going to need to add a three point shot to their game in order to get serious minutes for us in the next couple years.

good D, rebounding and hitting open three's is the name of the game for wings coming off the bench...

on a side note, i would like to see one of them up here getting some minutes just to see where their games are at...

Agreed for the most part, I would happily accept a decent percentage 15-18 foot jumper in lieu of the 3pter. The D is a must along with rebounding for these two. A little ball handling skill from the wings would be welcomed as well. It wouldnt take much to surpass Tony Allen in that department.

I gotta wonder if they have all these attitude 'issues' why Danny would take them both on at once. It isnt like they were the only players out there. Hopefully they are just very intense and passionate, hence the appearance of attitude. OTOH, it could be a 'high risk, high reward' type scenario as well.

I am sure that if and when either can hold his own defensively while running our sets, they will be back up here for a look see. We certainly could have used one of them while Tony Allen was banged up recently. One must assume they are simply not ready to contribute at this point.

Your inferring too much based off an article that the author was speculating in - body langauge, old stories about past issues, assumption about coaching frustration - none of this is substantiated by anything i've see from either on the court or heard about from off of it...

The comment about Walker's weight and Giddens lack of overall game are the two biggest indicators that this guy has no direct access to anything and simply observed the two, did some basic background info, and wrote a story...I wouldn't bank on anything he said considering the level of conflict between the story and the hard evidence to the contrary on a number of those points...

These guys aren't "attitude problems" both are energetic and quite coachable...if anything, the teams biggest problem is getting its PG to pass and its big men to pass up shots when they touch the ball - Walker and Giddens have played pretty smart bball while down there, something that can't be said about most of the Flash players...

[BillfromBoston]

The best news is that Giddens has made 19 of his 25 FTs. Still a small sample, but 76% is pretty encouraging (considering his abysmal FT shooting in college).

Other than that, checking the stats of players like Coby Karl, Smush Parker and Joe Crawford (Lakers 2nd rounder) gives a perspective of how easy is to fringe NBA talent to be dominant in the D-League. Btw, Courtney Sims, a 7ft undrafted stiff who played 11 minutes for the Pacers last season, is averaging 24 points (64%), 13 rebounds and 4.5 blocks. That probably explains why Don Nelson was underwhelmed by POB's 17 pts (54%), 10 rbs, 3.5 blk.

Much like the summer league, you'll never learn anything about a player's performance by reviewing box scores....you need to watch the games and see HOW he produced -- D-League is all about knowing a players current strengths and weaknesses and then seeing if those weaknesses are being improved or if he is just riding his strengths...

Walker and Giddens have both been working on elements of their game that are conducive to better play for the big club, that's more important than the averages...

[winsomme]

BFB....do you have any info on Walker's knee?

before he went down to the D League he seemed gimpy on that knee to me and i was starting to wonder if it was starting to really bother him again...

[BillfromBoston]

Nothing wrong with the knee - he was having standard soreness from the scope - it takes a while to get it back going, he's past that now and has been playing progressively better and more agressive bball.....

Budweiser - all the games look selfish with the Flash,  you were right on that part - I  was refering to Giddens and Walker's play specifically, they've played pretty smart bball...if the rest of the team would play a role they'd be one of the best in the D-league, but everyone else is out to get theirs, so they'll likely suck all year...

[cordobes]

The best news is that Giddens has made 19 of his 25 FTs. Still a small sample, but 76% is pretty encouraging (considering his abysmal FT shooting in college).

Other than that, checking the stats of players like Coby Karl, Smush Parker and Joe Crawford (Lakers 2nd rounder) gives a perspective of how easy is to fringe NBA talent to be dominant in the D-League. Btw, Courtney Sims, a 7ft undrafted stiff who played 11 minutes for the Pacers last season, is averaging 24 points (64%), 13 rebounds and 4.5 blocks. That probably explains why Don Nelson was underwhelmed by POB's 17 pts (54%), 10 rbs, 3.5 blk.

Much like the summer league, you'll never learn anything about a player's performance by reviewing box scores....you need to watch the games and see HOW he produced -- D-League is all about knowing a players current strengths and weaknesses and then seeing if those weaknesses are being improved or if he is just riding his strengths...

Walker and Giddens have both been working on elements of their game that are conducive to better play for the big club, that's more important than the averages...

Huh... I know, I was just putting the statistical thing in perspective, particularly re: O'Bryant. You'll never learn anything about a player's performance by reviewing box scores even in the NBA.

I've watched 3 games by now and Walker is not quite working on his weaknesses, unless I have a different assessment of his weaknesses. He's still playing too much inside, posting up, attacking the rim with short power dribbles, instead of doing more handling.

[Chris]

These guys aren't "attitude problems" both are energetic and quite coachable...if anything, the teams biggest problem is getting its PG to pass and its big men to pass up shots when they touch the ball - Walker and Giddens have played pretty smart bball while down there, something that can't be said about most of the Flash players...

Well to be fair, they both did have some red flags characterwise coming into the draft.  Although these terms like "attitude problems" and "character issues" always get thrown around too much, and the actual issues (which are much more important, when it comes to evaluation) are actually lost. 

Walker's "attitude problem" was that he played with too much emotion.  He was known as a guy who couldn't control his emotions on the floor, and in the past it was at times a detriment.  Of course as Celtics fans, we have seen two other examples of guys who wear their emotions on their sleeves in KG and Perk, and have seen the positives and negatives that go along with it.  I definitely don't think this is an issue, and I think it may have even been a positive when Danny drafted him.  Some people consider emotion to be playing with heart.

Giddens is more interesting.  He absolutely was accused of having attitude problems on the court.  Of course this was all in the past, and many people attributed it to an overreacting coach, but the accusation is there, and legit.  But he also was a model citizen his senior year, and seemed to grow up a lot.

[BillfromBoston]

The best news is that Giddens has made 19 of his 25 FTs. Still a small sample, but 76% is pretty encouraging (considering his abysmal FT shooting in college).

Other than that, checking the stats of players like Coby Karl, Smush Parker and Joe Crawford (Lakers 2nd rounder) gives a perspective of how easy is to fringe NBA talent to be dominant in the D-League. Btw, Courtney Sims, a 7ft undrafted stiff who played 11 minutes for the Pacers last season, is averaging 24 points (64%), 13 rebounds and 4.5 blocks. That probably explains why Don Nelson was underwhelmed by POB's 17 pts (54%), 10 rbs, 3.5 blk.

Much like the summer league, you'll never learn anything about a player's performance by reviewing box scores....you need to watch the games and see HOW he produced -- D-League is all about knowing a players current strengths and weaknesses and then seeing if those weaknesses are being improved or if he is just riding his strengths...

Walker and Giddens have both been working on elements of their game that are conducive to better play for the big club, that's more important than the averages...

Huh... I know, I was just putting the statistical thing in perspective, particularly re: O'Bryant. You'll never learn anything about a player's performance by reviewing box scores even in the NBA.

I've watched 3 games by now and Walker is not quite working on his weaknesses, unless I have a different assessment of his weaknesses. He's still playing too much inside, posting up, attacking the rim with short power dribbles, instead of doing more handling.

Well, i'd list finishing off moves around the basket is one of the primary things he must work on as well as making smarter reads and more decisive moves when flashing and cutting, so i've seen this and i consider it progress.

I've also seen him start off working on his catch-and-shoot and off-the-dribble perimeter game, especially the 3-ball. I've seen him wisely move in from that range and start working the mid-range game, which should be his bread-and-butter.

Ball-handling is typically reserved for ISO and that is the last thing i'd want him working on in-game. Refining his decision making, finishing plays, and perfecting his mid-range are the top 3 things on my list...

[BudweiserCeltic]

Flash had another game last night, which I didn't watch obviously because of the Celtics' game. Giddens didn't play due to injury, which kinda confirms what Bill was saying earlier about him being injured and maybe the reason why he was being ignored in the offense.

Walker went 6-13 with 18 points and 8 rebounds.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Giddens had a great game last night:
25 points on 11-15, 1-2 3-pointers, 8 Rebounds, 2 blocks

Looks like the trade rumors didn't distract him much:
http://www.nba.com/dleague/games/20081219/BAKUTA/recap.html

[billysan]

IMO both of these guys are going to need to add a three point shot to their game in order to get serious minutes for us in the next couple years.

good D, rebounding and hitting open three's is the name of the game for wings coming off the bench...

on a side note, i would like to see one of them up here getting some minutes just to see where their games are at...

Agreed for the most part, I would happily accept a decent percentage 15-18 foot jumper in lieu of the 3pter. The D is a must along with rebounding for these two. A little ball handling skill from the wings would be welcomed as well. It wouldnt take much to surpass Tony Allen in that department.

I gotta wonder if they have all these attitude 'issues' why Danny would take them both on at once. It isnt like they were the only players out there. Hopefully they are just very intense and passionate, hence the appearance of attitude. OTOH, it could be a 'high risk, high reward' type scenario as well.

I am sure that if and when either can hold his own defensively while running our sets, they will be back up here for a look see. We certainly could have used one of them while Tony Allen was banged up recently. One must assume they are simply not ready to contribute at this point.

Your inferring too much based off an article that the author was speculating in - body langauge, old stories about past issues, assumption about coaching frustration - none of this is substantiated by anything i've see from either on the court or heard about from off of it...

The comment about Walker's weight and Giddens lack of overall game are the two biggest indicators that this guy has no direct access to anything and simply observed the two, did some basic background info, and wrote a story...I wouldn't bank on anything he said considering the level of conflict between the story and the hard evidence to the contrary on a number of those points...

These guys aren't "attitude problems" both are energetic and quite coachable...if anything, the teams biggest problem is getting its PG to pass and its big men to pass up shots when they touch the ball - Walker and Giddens have played pretty smart bball while down there, something that can't be said about most of the Flash players...

Actually, what I am inferring is with regard to a generalized perception of the two guys. I think it is quite possible that Walker has been labeled unfairly to have a bad attitude and is in reality just playing 'near the edge' with barely controlled emotion. I have always believed he was a good kid, just a little immature.

IMHO the bad attitude label may have been assigned by those who seek to justify why these two obviously talented guys 'slipped' to the Celtics. To be fair, Giddens did have a reputation as a bad attitude kind of guy early in his college career, but as Chris points out he was pretty much a model citizen by all account in his senior year.

Not sure which article or author you are referring to. Since I only base this opinion on what I read by sportswriters and what I see during televised or on line games, it is quite likely I am not 100% accurate in my assessment.

[guava_wrench]

I'm shocked to hear people talking about Walker having an attitude problem. This is in no way his reputation. Yeah, he got into it with McGrady and LeBron, but that is in no way detrimental. Detrimental attitude problems are selfishness, narcissism, and laziness, not intensity.

[xmuscularghandix]

I'm shocked to hear people talking about Walker having an attitude problem. This is in no way his reputation. Yeah, he got into it with McGrady and LeBron, but that is in no way detrimental. Detrimental attitude problems are selfishness, narcissism, and laziness, not intensity.

TP, i'm not only shocked by this, i'm really upset by it.

[billysan]

I'm shocked to hear people talking about Walker having an attitude problem. This is in no way his reputation. Yeah, he got into it with McGrady and LeBron, but that is in no way detrimental. Detrimental attitude problems are selfishness, narcissism, and laziness, not intensity.

Just to be clear, I am not saying I think Walker has an attitude problem. (I made a comment earlier in this thread that was meant to be 'tongue in cheek' sarcasm about the subject.) I am saying there has been speculation in the print media about it. Giddens has a reputation for an early college career bout with not being a solid citizen but has be fine for the past year or so by most accounts.

I am quite sure if they were problem children, we would know it from Doc or the team by now. If anthing, expectations are running a little high and some folks need to remember they are still rookies. I have said before, IMO we will know if they can contribute this season by Valentines Day most likely.