Author Topic: Lets Hammer out our own CBA  (Read 11176 times)

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Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« on: July 07, 2011, 02:13:07 PM »

Offline sportsfreak

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Since its Lockout Season.

What would you like to see in the new CBA?

For me, i would like to see a NFL like structure which allows teams to htink about drafting and developing players rather than have big time free agent aquisitions.
-Hard Cap
-Non-Guaranteed Contracts
-Franchise Tag
-NBADL Minor League put into full use.

Any other ideas?


Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2011, 02:19:05 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I vote Fafnir gets 1% of all BRI.

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2011, 02:26:56 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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- Hard cap determined by the current luxury tax calculations (cap each season based on previous season numbers).

- Per the 'hard' cap, remove MLE, LLE, Bird rights

- Revenue sharing

- Contracts not guaranteed beyond the first 2 years; contracts above a certain pay grade must be guaranteed for at least 1 year.  Contracts may not extend longer than 4 years.

- When teams are re-signing their players, they may give players contracts that are guaranteed up to 4 years, with a 5th year guaranteed for as much as 50%.

- Similar to the way minimum salaries are currently graded based on the number of years a player has been in the league, contracts above minimum will have a graded increase based on the number of years that a player has been with the team.  However, this graded increase will not count against the team's cap number.

- Reduce player salary to 50% of BRI, but also re-work the definition of "basketball related income" so the players see the benefits of some of the league's side investments.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2011, 02:40:42 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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What I like to see in the new CBA.

- 48% - 50% BRI to players, that's a pretty good reduction
- Revenue Sharing
- 65 Million FLEX Cap, 71 Million Hard Cap
- Only MLE's and Rookie Exception allowed, no other exceptions and no new MLE's to be given until the first given MLE expires
- Non - Guaranteed Contracts
- 4-5 Year max-contracts

anything else that's good, i'm in. But I want to see these changes.
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Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2011, 02:50:45 PM »

Online Moranis

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I'd give the players something like 53% and I would have no salary cap (but would have a luxury tax at 115% of what the cap # would be).  I would have a team salary minimum at something that would translate to 80% of what would be the average cap.  I wouldn't restrict contracts to players at all.  They can sign for as many years and as many dollars as the team writing the check wants to give.  It is a free market society and should be treated as such.  For every year the owners do not hit at least 52%, the minimum team salary increase 5% and remains there for five seasons (in the years between 52 and 53% the difference goes to a fund that can be utilized by the union how it sees fit - most likely for retired players benefits). 

We are a free market capitalistic society and sports should be no different.
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Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2011, 04:01:07 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I'm actually planning on a FanPost on the main blog with my idea for a CBA that includes a harder cap, but not a harder cap.  I could theoretically have it up within an hour.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2011, 04:01:28 PM »

Offline Chris

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- Hard cap determined by the current luxury tax calculations (cap each season based on previous season numbers).

- Per the 'hard' cap, remove MLE, LLE, Bird rights

- Revenue sharing

- Contracts not guaranteed beyond the first 2 years; contracts above a certain pay grade must be guaranteed for at least 1 year.  Contracts may not extend longer than 4 years.

- When teams are re-signing their players, they may give players contracts that are guaranteed up to 4 years, with a 5th year guaranteed for as much as 50%.

- Similar to the way minimum salaries are currently graded based on the number of years a player has been in the league, contracts above minimum will have a graded increase based on the number of years that a player has been with the team.  However, this graded increase will not count against the team's cap number.


I like all of this.  I would also have provisions similar to the NHL that allows them to put seriously injured players on an injured reserve, and use that cap space (but they would have to be under the cap to take them off the IR).

I also was a fan of the "flexcap" that the owners proposed (although they obviously took it a bit far).  Having a hard cap, with a soft cap below it can really give the teams an advantage when it comes to keeping their own free agents.  

Although, if they still have an MLE, I think it should be 1-2 year contracts at the most.

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2011, 04:02:25 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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We are a free market capitalistic society and sports should be no different.

If you really want that, then you would be in favor of abolishing the draft and having all players be completely unrestricted free agents, even as rookies.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2011, 04:35:26 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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I'd give the players something like 53% and I would have no salary cap (but would have a luxury tax at 115% of what the cap # would be).  I would have a team salary minimum at something that would translate to 80% of what would be the average cap.  I wouldn't restrict contracts to players at all.  They can sign for as many years and as many dollars as the team writing the check wants to give.  It is a free market society and should be treated as such.  For every year the owners do not hit at least 52%, the minimum team salary increase 5% and remains there for five seasons (in the years between 52 and 53% the difference goes to a fund that can be utilized by the union how it sees fit - most likely for retired players benefits). 

We are a free market capitalistic society and sports should be no different.

The general marketplace is a "free market, capitalistic society" to a large degree (but not absolutely). 

The NBA is not the general marketplace.  The NBA is a competitive league, (ostensibly) regulated to give all its members a fair chance at winning.  As LC implied, that's why there is a draft. 


The NBA is not a free market where power should by rights go to whoever has the biggest checkbook, and it should not be treated as such.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2011, 05:48:24 PM »

Online Moranis

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We are a free market capitalistic society and sports should be no different.

If you really want that, then you would be in favor of abolishing the draft and having all players be completely unrestricted free agents, even as rookies.
I would have no problem at all eliminating the draft.  If you want a player and the player wants you sign him up.  Though there is a difference between a draft and a salary cap.  I'd also be all for players having complete veto power on all trades.  If you don't want to go someplace to work you shouldn't be forced to.
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Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2011, 05:57:02 PM »

Offline gift

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would you guys be interested in doing a mock CBA?  members can split into two groups, owners and players, elect leaders and vote on agreements until you come to a CBA.

it looks like the lockout is going to last a while, so you probably have time to put something together.

anyone interested?  if so, any ideas on how it could play out?  i might be interested myself, i don't know yet... but just thought i'd toss the idea out there.

i certainly think we'd need some guys good with figures to participate.

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2011, 06:21:56 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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We are a free market capitalistic society and sports should be no different.

If you really want that, then you would be in favor of abolishing the draft and having all players be completely unrestricted free agents, even as rookies.
I would have no problem at all eliminating the draft.  If you want a player and the player wants you sign him up.  Though there is a difference between a draft and a salary cap.  I'd also be all for players having complete veto power on all trades.  If you don't want to go someplace to work you shouldn't be forced to.

The league would be horrible, and I mean absolutely horrible, if things were the way you wanted them.

Players aren't normal workers, and shouldn't be treated as such, just as the owners aren't normal business owners, and shouldn't be treated as such.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

"I know you all wanna win, but you gotta do it TOGETHER!"
- Doc Rivers

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2011, 08:22:06 PM »

Offline paulcowens

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Our system is not remotely a free market.  It has a lot in common with the Soviet union.  Virtually every major economic area is ruled by a mega-corporation.  These megacorporations have interlocking boards.  International banks rule over everything.  The political system is wholly owned by these banks and corporations.  NOT REMOTELY FREE MARKET. 

In fact, the free market is an idea, one that has as much actual reality as the 'state of nature'.  No human being has lived in a 'state of nature' for hundreds of thousands of years, most likely. No 'free market' as EVER existed.

That doesn't mean that the free market isn't valuable as an idea.  It is.  And part of it's value is that it helps us realize what our society/economy is not. 

Regarding the NBA, I'd like to see the players get 60%.  This game is all about the players.  I think salary caps and revenue sharing are important, to maintain competitiveness around the league.  I think that teams should be expected to cut back on ridiculous promotions, perks for player, etc..

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2011, 10:06:57 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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One place to start would be to try to establish what the goals of a CBA are. To my mind, an ideal CBA would:

-Guarantee players a considerable portion of league revenue. They are the ones who play the games, their the ones I like to watch.

-Encourage some form of competitive balance, as no fan base should never have no hope in sight.

-Allow teams that are well constructed to stay together, to reward good roster construction. Personally, I think, to a certain extent, dynasties are good. Super fun if the dynastic team is YOUR team, but if not, it gives the league an "evil empire" to hate, and huge feeling of success if the dynasty is vanquished. It also gives the sport something to talk about in terms of historicity; frankly, no current NFL team could hold a candle in all time discussions with pre-1995 teams. I don't want the same for basketball, necessarily. And finally, I don't want the NBA title to be "cheapened." I feel like one superbowl victory is not even that great an indicator of success anymore. Just get a hot streak in the 2nd half of the season, luck out with injuries, and you are suddenly "the best" team. You have to win 2 within 5 years with some continuity to be a truly great team, or be in a few superbowls/conference championships in a row then win a superbowl to be a great team anymore in my opinion.

-In a similar vein, make sure that no hometown hero has to leave the team simply because of no capspace.

-Reward Owners for doing good independent work marketing their own franchises to fans

-Not reward owners who were "brilliant" enough to make their billions, but suddenly are utter morons running a sports team (my personal take: it's a lot more luck and circumstances that go into earning those billions than it is actual skill. My evidence? How owners run sports teams with logic and practices that would bankrupt many companies).

-Not over-penalize teams for signing players who then get injured or are total dead weight.

-But not let teams just start over from scratch for free every year that they make terrible mistakes.




So here are my ideas:

1. Keep player salaries as a percentage of league profits, with escrow, etc. This prevents trying to make a fixed figure, then having players be quite relatively underpaid or damagingly overpaid for league revenue, and prevents the major headache of renegotiating the CBA every time a tv contract is up.

2. Lower the Percentage, but just a little. On the one hand, players, as a percentage, make about the same as other sports leagues. On the other hand, because the absolute dollar amount is lower than MLB and NFL, there are less total dollars available to expand the league. Second, there are fewer players in the NBA, so a smaller percentage would still get individual players a share of profits comparable to other sports. I'd drop it to 52% for the next CBA, and assess in 5 years.

3. As a tradeoff to the above, books need to be open. Player salaries are on the record, so exec and personnel salaries should be too. This will help determine who is running a smart team vs. owners hiding money, etc.

4. Some amount, maybe 1-2% of the above savings, goes to the league as a whole for the advertising/expanding the fanbase department, to help the league as a whole grow.

5. There will be a minimum cap, set at, say, 75% of the general cap, to ensure there are few owners just sucking off the others.

6. Increased revenue sharing: equal split of national TV money, and a sort of "luxury tax" to the league (I don't know how much would make sense) on gates and local tv deals as well as merchandise. Basically, you want a system where it is always better for team X to sell more shirts, more tickets, and get better local tv deals, but that those deals help other teams too.

7. To discourage leech owners, after 6 years in the league a 2/3 majority of owners can vote out a crappy owner, having the league purchase the team at some pre-agreed upon price (110% of purchase cost or something) to resell the team to a more capable owner. I would guess that no owners would vote out another one for just putting out a bad team, but if an owner was always making stupid business decisions, paying the minimum salary each yaer but still profiting, they'd be out.

8. Flex cap at some level related to the BRI (as currently). Something like 52% x BRI divided by 30 minus 7 million. That would have made the cap 59,000,000 this past season. Then set the minimum at around 45,000,000, but team cannot be under 50,000,000 three years in a row or something.

9. Exceptions: any amount over the cap results in luxury tax. Profitable teams can feel free to exceed the cap if they like, knowing they will cut into their profit margin. However, it is harder to go above the cap now. You may only exceed the cap in order to: sign drafted rookies; use a franchise tag; sign your own free agents; vet minimum deals. No more MLE.

10: Rookies: similar to now: 2 guaranteed years, 2 team options, RFA w/ QO, UFA. However, the amount of year to year raises is significantly lower, such that Derrick Rose as the #1 pick would only make about 5.5 in his 4th year with a qo of 7 instead of the 7 and 9 it is now.

11. Franchise tag: When a player completes a full contract (either reaches UFA after 5 years of rookie deal or completes a regular contract/extension), the player's team may lock him up for 1 additional year at the max and force the player to stay. However, this may only be used once by a team on a player, but a team may use this as many times a year as they wish.

12. No BYC nonsense. Your salary is your salary.

13. Contracts: Max limit is lowered slightly in proportion to the 52%. Max length is 5 for current team, 4 for another team. All contracts are 25% guaranteed on both sides. This means that a team can buy out a player for 25% of the cost remaining on their contract, and the player becomes a UFA. That money is then wiped off their cap (but will still count toward luxury tax and is on the books as a conscious loss), and it can be payed out in the year the player is cut or spread out over the length of what the contract would have been, with a little interest. Likewise, a player may, at any time, pay the team 25% of his remaining contract (in lump sum or spread out over length of contract) and become a UFA with the salary wiped from the cap amount. Note: if a team buys out a player they cannot then franchise him, but the team MAY franchise a player who buys his contract out. Buyouts do not apply to rookie deals. And a franchised player cannot buy out his contract.

Examples:
A. Team signs Player X to 5 yr 75 million dollar deal. Hate it after year 1, and they are exactly at the cap of 60 million. So, they buy out player X. There are 4 years, 60 million remaining, so they buy him out for 15 million, either in a 1 year sum or 3.75, 4.0, 4.25, 4.5  (16.5, a little interest). now they are at 45 million dollar pay roll, so they can add 15 million of free agents. However, if adding free agents would put their total player expenditures above the flex cap, so they'd pay tax to the league. so if they went for the 4 year spread out route, they could add 15 million free agents this year and be taxed on 3.75 million, or they could just add 11 million in free agents and pay no tax.

B. Player signs a 5 year 20 million dollar deal off his rookie deal. Suddenly he finds out he's underpaid. So he has 4 years 16 million remaining. he may pay the team 4 million dollars to walk away from the contract, and the contract is null and void, no more cap ramifications. However, the team may franchise him once if they would like, and the player would have to stay for 1 year; maybe the team could negotiate a better deal in that time frame.

14. Contracts can be renegotiated as seen fit by player and team. If one side doesn't like it, they can walk away and either buy out the contract or risk being bought out.



I may realize some things i wanted to include, but that's my rough sketch for now.


Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2011, 01:47:55 AM »

Offline mgent

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What's wrong with the way it is now?
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