Would Baron davis sign with C's for less money, but a ring ????

[BballTim]

  He'll go for the big bucks now and then look for a chance to win a title in his remaining years in the league after that contract runs out.

[cordobes]

This kind of delirious nosense threads are getting out of control. 

Oh, and he wants to go back to LA, so he'd probably prefer to join the Lakers.

[LarBrd33]

I think the Clippers are the front runners for Baron.

Someone who knows cap rules better than me,
    Can the Clippers now sign Baron Davis to a large contract because they are under the cap do to Brand opting out, but then go and sign Brand afterwards based on Bird rights? Or do they have to lose rights to Brand (whatever the term is) in order to sign Davis? I don't believe they have enough cap space to sign both outright.

I'm not sure how it works in real life, but I play a lot of text based basketball/GM simulation games and they are usually pretty good with this kind of stuff.  The one I play most recently is called Draft Day Sports: Pro Basketball and the way it works in that game is that if you have a player and his bird rights, his expected first year salary of his new contract basically counts against your cap unless you renounce his rights.  So lets say you have a star player making 20 million and with him on your roster you are right at the cap.  Now lets say he's a free agent, but you still own his bird rights.  That 20 million figure still counts against the cap and prevents you from signing a new free agent with that cap space.   It's probably to prevent that exact scenario you're mentioning.   However, if you renounce the rights to that player you now suddenly have 20 million in cap room that you can spend freely.   I'll give you an example from the game I played yesterday:

It's the year 2013.   I'm in charge of Memphis.  I have Gilbert Arenas on my team who had a contract that was progressively getting higher every year.  The last year of his contract he was making like 25 million.   He's now a free agent.   I think the game factors in what his first year salary on an extension would be... so it's now showing a figure for Gilbert of 28 million counting against my cap... placing me something like 5 million over the cap.  But I have done my research and found out that in this game simulation shockingly in 2013 no other teams really have cap room.  Kinda a crappy market.   So there is no reason for me to give Gilbert a massive extension starting at 28 million.   So I take a chance and renounce his bird rights.   Now suddenly with his 28 million figure gone (putting me 5 mil over the cap), it is now showing that I have 23 million dollars in cap room.  That's a ton of cap room.   But just because I don't own Gilbert's bird rights doesn't mean I can't still sign him to a big contract... nobody else has money to pay the aging star.   So i wait out several weeks and sign him to a more reasonable salary starting at 8 mil.  The difference is that without his bird rights I can only offer him 5 years instead of 6... and the percentage increase from year to year is less than it would have been had I owned his Bird rights.   With the remaining 15 million in cap room I sign another free agent to a near max deal.    

Now, that's just an example from a video game ( http://www.wolverinestudios.com/ddspb/ if you guys are interested in checking out the demo), but I'm pretty sure it actually works pretty similar to that.   That's the reason why a guy like Keith Van Horn can stick around for so long without even playing.  Since they owned his bird rights, his figure was still counting against the Mav's cap even though they weren't paying him.  Since the Mavs weren't close to having cap room it didn't really matter to them if they renounced the rights to Van Horn or not.    

[Big Ticket]

I think the Clippers are the front runners for Baron.

Someone who knows cap rules better than me,
    Can the Clippers now sign Baron Davis to a large contract because they are under the cap do to Brand opting out, but then go and sign Brand afterwards based on Bird rights? Or do they have to lose rights to Brand (whatever the term is) in order to sign Davis? I don't believe they have enough cap space to sign both outright.

I am mostly guessing here, but:

With Livingston, Maggette, and Brand all opting out, the Clippers only have some $28 mil on the books for next year.  I read if the Clips make a run at Baron, it almost guarantees that Maggette is gone.  I also read that Brand would probably sign a new contract that started out at fewer than the $16.4 mil he opted out of.  So say Brand gets on the books for $12-14 mil and Baron for the same, then they'd be at around $54 mil in total payroll, which I believe is still under the cap.

[Big Ticket]

Here is basketball-brilliant Kelly Dwyer's take (makes me happy that it is pretty much in line with my previous post - the Clips COULD do it, but they'd be pushing the cap threshold with several spots still to fill).  Includes some mention of trying to create a team in the mold of the Celtics.  Full article here.

Immediately, whispers started swirling about a potential hook-up with the Los Angeles Clippers, as the team is not looking to rebuild, Davis is from El Lay, he's a known dabbler in movie production, and went to school at UCLA. That's the selling point. The real reason most assumed that Davis already has a destination in mind came basically because, in opting out, Davis did something you just don't do unless you know you're about to recoup your money.

The Clippers do have cap space, Shaun Livingston has already been renounced (pity; understandable but sad), Elton Brand also opted out of the final year of his contract (leaving 16 million on the table, swearing up and down that he'll return to Los Angeles), and Corey Maggette refused to put a kink in the Clipper plans by opting out of the final year (seven million) of his moderately-sized deal.

The Maggette situation looms large, because though the swingman is rumored to be on his way to Philadelphia for a substantial raise, there's a very real possibility that had the dominoes fallen in another direction, Maggette could have missed out on the 76er signing, and found himself with no team to get a raise from. That could still happen, actually. Even with that in place, Corey took the plunge, which leaves Los Angeles with about 29.6 million dollars in salary in place for next year, with the NBA's salary cap expected to be a shade over 58 million dollars in 2008-09.

Does all of that get earmarked for Brand and Davis? I'm not going to give you one of those "they're the Clippers" speeches, because even if you don't agree with the team's personnel moves, you can't call this outfit cheap anymore, not since it matched contract offers for Brand and Maggette back in 2003 and the flurry of signings/extensions in the years following. That said, filling out the rest of the cap with these two leaves Los Angeles with eight players under contract, and nothing more than a pretty solid team.

Even if Brand and Davis evenly split that nearly 30 million starting next year, both players will be playing for less money than they were due to make originally. Creating a sign and trade with Golden State doesn't make sense because there is nobody on that roster that the Warriors would want to give Baron Davis-sized money to, and that would leave Brand with the short end of the stick starting salary-wise.

Someone, if not both Davis and Brand, will be getting the stick in this situation. And for what? The Clippers would have those two; center Chris Kaman, emerging forward Al Thornton, rookie Eric Gordon, with veteran shooters Tim Thomas and Cuttino Mobley hanging around. That's a good team, even if Davis misses some time, but not an overwhelming team. The Clippers will have more cap space coming down the pike years later when Mobley and Thomas' contracts expire, but not a ton.

It looks as if Davis and Brand are trying to have their cake and eat it too, frankly, pulling in as much money as legally possible while still talking up a Celtics-style melding of the beleaguered superstars. The problem there is that the Celtics didn't sign any of their stars outright, but traded big salary for big salary while pairing the two new stars with incumbent Paul Pierce. The Clippers would only be adding one new star, really, in Davis.

[cordobes]

I think the Clippers are the front runners for Baron.

Someone who knows cap rules better than me,
    Can the Clippers now sign Baron Davis to a large contract because they are under the cap do to Brand opting out, but then go and sign Brand afterwards based on Bird rights? Or do they have to lose rights to Brand (whatever the term is) in order to sign Davis? I don't believe they have enough cap space to sign both outright.

No, unless they renounce Brand's bird rights (something they aren't going to do). If they don't do that, Brand's salary still counts against their cap space.

What they can do is renounce to Maggette and Livingston. Then, resign Brand with a 6 year backloaded contract, starting somewhere near $14M. If they do that, I think they'll have enough cap space ($14M maybe) to sign Davis to a 5 year contract with max annual increases. They can do it.

The only problem I see is that they'll have a very thin roster. Thomas, Mobley and Knight coming off the bench. They'd need to sign at least 4 min salary players. But they'd be in a great position next season, if Gordon pans out. A 3-4 years winning window.

[LarBrd33]

I think the Clippers are the front runners for Baron.

Someone who knows cap rules better than me,
    Can the Clippers now sign Baron Davis to a large contract because they are under the cap do to Brand opting out, but then go and sign Brand afterwards based on Bird rights? Or do they have to lose rights to Brand (whatever the term is) in order to sign Davis? I don't believe they have enough cap space to sign both outright.

No, unless they renounce Brand's bird rights (something they aren't going to do). If they don't do that, Brand's salary still counts against their cap space.

What they can do is renounce to Maggette and Livingston. Then, resign Brand with a 6 year backloaded contract, starting somewhere near $14M. If they do that, I think they'll have enough cap space ($14M maybe) to sign Davis to a 5 year contract with max annual increases. They can do it.

The only problem I see is that they'll have a very thin roster. Thomas, Mobley and Knight coming off the bench. They'd need to sign at least 4 min salary players. But they'd be in a great position next season, if Gordon pans out. A 3-4 years winning window.

Sounds a lot like the Celtics after the KG trade.  They would need to sign some role players.

[cordobes]

I think the Clippers are the front runners for Baron.

Someone who knows cap rules better than me,
    Can the Clippers now sign Baron Davis to a large contract because they are under the cap do to Brand opting out, but then go and sign Brand afterwards based on Bird rights? Or do they have to lose rights to Brand (whatever the term is) in order to sign Davis? I don't believe they have enough cap space to sign both outright.

No, unless they renounce Brand's bird rights (something they aren't going to do). If they don't do that, Brand's salary still counts against their cap space.

What they can do is renounce to Maggette and Livingston. Then, resign Brand with a 6 year backloaded contract, starting somewhere near $14M. If they do that, I think they'll have enough cap space ($14M maybe) to sign Davis to a 5 year contract with max annual increases. They can do it.

The only problem I see is that they'll have a very thin roster. Thomas, Mobley and Knight coming off the bench. They'd need to sign at least 4 min salary players. But they'd be in a great position next season, if Gordon pans out. A 3-4 years winning window.

Sounds a lot like the Celtics after the KG trade.  They would need to sign some role players.

Hehe, good call. But there's a difference: we were able to spend the MLE in Posey and House and Pierce/KG/Allen are way better than Brand/Davis/Kaman.

p.s. - When I said they'd be in a great position next season I meant the 2009/2010 season.

[wdleehi]

One too many 20 point scorers. 

[winsomme]

I'd say he'd take less to play for Miami.

Davis
Wade
Marion
Beasley
Blount 

reserves

Banks
Cook
Wright
Haslem


I'd be nervous to play them.

i actually think that Miami needs Brand more than they need Baron.

how about trading Brand and Gordon for Beasley, Wright, picks and salary?

[winsomme]

I'd say he'd take less to play for Miami.

Davis
Wade
Marion
Beasley
Blount 

reserves

Banks
Cook
Wright
Haslem


I'd be nervous to play them.

i actually think that Miami needs Brand more than they need Baron.

how about trading Brand and Gordon for Beasley, Wright, picks and salary?

or simpler, Brand and Gordon for Marion and Beasley

[houlana]

i think Baron would sign with a good team for less money. but he wouldn't go from 17 mil to 5.
i would love to have him on the team, know rondo is the point, but baron is one of my favorite players in the leage.
but there is no way i see him taking that big of a pay cut

[paintitgreen]

EEI said the Clippers offered Davis 5 years and $101 million. With annual raises of 8% of the first year number, that comes out to a starting salary of $17.4 million. That would put them close to $46 million, meaning they could offer Brand a longterm deal starting at $12 million a year. Interesting that they'd give Davis so much more money than Brand. Maybe there's cap room though. I heard renouncing Maggette's rights would clear up $10 mil in cap space. I think they had some money before hand. It's possible (though I don't know) they can resign Brand to go over the cap if and when they renounce Maggette.

Word is the Warriors offered Arenas huge money (but Washington offered him the max), so I think Davis to the Clippers is as good as done. On a side note, I liked the Wizards a lot more without Arenas, so I'm happy to see them tie all their money to him.

How bout the Clippers taking a shot? With Davis, Gordon, THornton, Brand and Kaman, with Mobley, Tim Thomas, Brevin Knight, Josh Powell and some FAs with the exception, that's a good team. But the Warriors, if they lose Davis and can't get Arenas, are pretty much cooked. They didn't make the playoffs last year and now the Clippers and Blazers already look better than them to take over a playoff spot. Too bad, I love watching that team.

[cordobes]

I'd say he'd take less to play for Miami.

Davis
Wade
Marion
Beasley
Blount 

reserves

Banks
Cook
Wright
Haslem


I'd be nervous to play them.

i actually think that Miami needs Brand more than they need Baron.

how about trading Brand and Gordon for Beasley, Wright, picks and salary?

or simpler, Brand and Gordon for Marion and Beasley

Miami doesn't really need Gordon. I don't think they'd do that. A lineup of Chalmers/Wade/Hasleem/Brand/MLE center isn't going nowhere. I don't think it'll be easy to see Brand in Miami.

[cordobes]

EEI said the Clippers offered Davis 5 years and $101 million. With annual raises of 8% of the first year number, that comes out to a starting salary of $17.4 million. That would put them close to $46 million, meaning they could offer Brand a longterm deal starting at $12 million a year. 

I said it first: http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=64&topic=20651.msg321578#msg321578

It always looked like the more logic and feasible outcome to me.