#DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)

[knuckleballer]

So the NFL...cough...I mean ESPN is really going to dredge up something from 8 years ago that the organization was punished for?

Oh, and it comes up less than a week since the NFL got defeated in court involving a member from that same team in a different high profile controversy?  C'mon.......

This just reeks of trying to save face or, even worse, a simple smear job. 

No question it does that, but it also might answer the question as to why the NFL came down so hard on the Patriots for some deflated footballs.  I mean that is a pretty common theme throughout this thread, why punish the Patriots so harshly for something that other teams get a slap on the wrist for?  Well now you have your answer, those other teams weren't undergoing widespread cheating for years.

The Patriots have always played fast and loose with the rules, so any rule violation, no matter how minor, is going to be looked at differently with the Patriots than any other organization.  It is the whole live by the sword die by the sword mentality.  when you skirt the line, you had better [dang] well make sure you don't cross it.

You are completely ignoring the fact that Bill Cowler, coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers during the period all of this time during which video taping occurred, says that every team was doing this.  Why don't you acknoweledge this? What does Cowler have to gain by making his observation?  And certainly he is quailifed to make it, he coached one of our biggest competitiors vying for Super Bowls during that era.

stealing signals and illegally videotaping aren't the same thing.  The Steelers never illegally videotaped.

Every team was video taping signals from 2001 through 2006.  Every team. That is what Cowler said. The ESPN article (and you) mislead others by saying only the Patriots were doing this. This widespread practice caused the NFL sent out a memo to teams saying that they must stop it.  Belichick disingenuously interpreted the memo by claiming it only applied to real time usage, and in so doing, was reprimanded (I would argue, severely) for this in 2007.  Do you really want to continue to claim that other teams were not video taping other team's signal calling during 2001-06?

This was common practice league wide since the mid 80s.  And they weren't being sneaky about it.  The guy had a large camera and was in full view of the refs, league officials, and opposing players and coaches.  Belichick was arrogant and ignored the memo as he felt he had a better understanding of the rule than the commissioner.  All he had to do was move the cameraman off the sidelines to a designated area for filming.  Belichick should have been punished and he was, but it's much ado about nothing.  The Patriots went on to win 17 straight games after stopping the practice.

You actually were not allowed to video tape signals.  Doesn't matter where the camera was, you weren't allowed to do it.  Period.  That is why the punishment was fairly severe, if it has just been a case where a guy was in the wrong spot, you don't see that punishment.

"Videotaping opposing coaches is not illegal in the NFL but there are designated areas allowed by the league to do such taping."  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_England_Patriots_videotaping_controversy


"COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT SPYGATE

YOU'RE WRONG IF YOU THINK: Filming you opponents' signals is prohibited by the league and is therefore a serious cheating infraction.

REALITY: Filming your opponents' signals is -- and always has been -- completely legal, even today. After a league memo to all clubs in 2006, however, you can't do it from a location where the team could potentially use it during the same game.

As Coach Bill Belichick noted in 2015, 80,000 people can see his team's defensive signals: millions more if a TV camera pans by them. The signals are not meant to be hidden, just as in baseball a third-base coach's signals are not meant to be hidden. They should, however, be properly encrypted, but that is the signaling team's responsibility.

Every single NFL team films every single game they play from multiple angles. As they do this, are they supposed to locate and black out the one part of the stadium where the defensive coach is? Should it be a roaming dot if he moves? Obviously not, because the sidelines are just another part of the larger football field and game."
http://yourteamcheats.com/what-is-spygate

This is from the league directive sent in 2006.

"Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.''

So you can't tape signals from anywhere in the stadium during the game, which is basically what I said.  You should never rely on Wikipedia for your information.

You are not reading closely enough.  It is not allowed where it can be accessed by the team to use in the game which is what you quoted says.  There are, however, designated locations for filming where it is allowed. 

This has been sitting on Wikipedia's website for nearly 8 years and the NFL has never attempted to correct it and that is because it is correct. 

[footey]

So the NFL...cough...I mean ESPN is really going to dredge up something from 8 years ago that the organization was punished for?

Oh, and it comes up less than a week since the NFL got defeated in court involving a member from that same team in a different high profile controversy?  C'mon.......

This just reeks of trying to save face or, even worse, a simple smear job. 

No question it does that, but it also might answer the question as to why the NFL came down so hard on the Patriots for some deflated footballs.  I mean that is a pretty common theme throughout this thread, why punish the Patriots so harshly for something that other teams get a slap on the wrist for?  Well now you have your answer, those other teams weren't undergoing widespread cheating for years.

The Patriots have always played fast and loose with the rules, so any rule violation, no matter how minor, is going to be looked at differently with the Patriots than any other organization.  It is the whole live by the sword die by the sword mentality.  when you skirt the line, you had better [dang] well make sure you don't cross it.

You are completely ignoring the fact that Bill Cowler, coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers during the period all of this time during which video taping occurred, says that every team was doing this.  Why don't you acknoweledge this? What does Cowler have to gain by making his observation?  And certainly he is quailifed to make it, he coached one of our biggest competitiors vying for Super Bowls during that era.

stealing signals and illegally videotaping aren't the same thing.  The Steelers never illegally videotaped.

Every team was video taping signals from 2001 through 2006.  Every team. That is what Cowler said. The ESPN article (and you) mislead others by saying only the Patriots were doing this. This widespread practice caused the NFL sent out a memo to teams saying that they must stop it.  Belichick disingenuously interpreted the memo by claiming it only applied to real time usage, and in so doing, was reprimanded (I would argue, severely) for this in 2007.  Do you really want to continue to claim that other teams were not video taping other team's signal calling during 2001-06?

except Cowher didn't actually say that.  He said

“The only thing they got caught (was) doing it with a camera,” Cowher said, referring to the Patriots. “We had people that always tried to steal signals. Stealing someone’s signals was a part of the game, and everyone attempted to do that.”

According to Cowher, his team used wristbands to try to identify opponents’ verbal signals that were being yelled out on the field.

But hey, let's not let facts get in the way.

Ethically speaking, I don't see any difference. Either way, you're "stealing" signals—which, for the record, I think is fine; I don't think there should be some "unwritten rule" (as there seems to be in baseball, too) where teams can openly give signals but opponents are supposed to, what? Look away? It's stupid. Of course teams are going to try to figure out the opposition, and they should be able to try to do that.

I'm guessing that Belichick looks at some of these rules, sees the lack of logic behind them, and figures, "Ah, what the heck, let's give this a shot." And I completely agree. There's no ethical difference between seeing signals and taping them. Both are examples of "stealing" signals. But if you're going to rely on signals that opponents can see, it's your own dang fault if they get "stolen." Similarly, what's the logic of the NFL's psi range of 12.5 to 13.5 (or whatever it is precisely)? Why not 12.4? Or 13.7? Or 12, or 14? Is there science behind that? Seems arbitrary to me.

Besides all this, if Belichick and/or the Patriots weren't punished severely enough for some folks' liking, that's Goodell's fault. And when are people going to realize that NE was just as successful (maybe more so) after Spygate as before? Just like they were more successful against the Colts in the second half with "legit" footballs.

There is a fairly big difference between taping signals and just observing signals.  One allows you to watch it over and over again to learn patterns, one does not.  That is why the rule is in place and that is why "stealing signals" is a lot different than "taping signals".  One is against the rules and one is not.

This is an excerpt from article going into history of video-taping of signals. (Why do you keep insisting that only the Patriots did this??)

"It’s not known when someone first filmed coaching signals. It goes back at least to 1990 when Marty Schottenheimer coached Kansas City. Both on a Fox pregame show and on WFAN, a New York radio station, Jimmy Johnson, who coached the Dallas Cowboys to two Super Bowl Championships, said he also had staffers tape opposing coaches.
 
Johnson said teams could tape signals from the press box, but sometimes the press box was on the wrong side of the field. In that case, the cameraman filmed from the sidelines. Johnson, who also had interns search other teams’ trash for discarded notes and game plans, said taping coaches wasn’t worth the effort and abandoned it.
 
Johnson learned the procedure in 1990 from Mark Hatley, a Kansas Cityscout, who taught him how Marty Schottenheimer’s Chiefs did it. Johnson praised one Schottenheimer assistant, Howard Mudd, as “the best in the entire league at stealing signals.”  During much of the current decade, including their Super Bowl year, Mudd worked for the Indianapolis Colts.
 
One of Belichick’s fiercest Spygate critics and Mudd’s boss from 2002-2008 with the Colts, Tony Dungy, also served on Schottenheimer’s Kansas City staff. Other notable Schottenheimer assistants in Kansas City include Herm Edwards, who later served as the Jets' head coach before returning to the Chiefs in that capacity.
 
Edwards was so familiar with taping tactics that he waved to the Patriots' camera recording him. Long time Steelers' coach Bill Cowher also worked for Schottenheimer in Kansas City. During his career,Schottenheimer also coached the Cleveland Browns, Washington Redskins, and San Diego Chargers.
 
During Schottenheimer’s first few seasons in Kansas City, offenses still used hand signals too, meaning his defense also benefited from deciphering signals.
 
The media reports as if filming opposing coaches is a violation of NFL rules. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell shares this belief and apparently based his punishment on it."

[Roy H.]

Even more evidence that ESPN is simply a shill for the NFL

I'm not sure this is even it.  That article was as hard on Goodell as it was the Patriots - it painted him as a power-hungry, incompetent snake who cares more about perception than truth. 

This article was put out there by owners unhappy with the fact that the Patriots haven't gotten their "comeuppance."  Equally frustrated by Goodell's inability to truly punish the Pats as they are with the Pats' ability to "get away with" cheating.

Yeah, I can buy that theory.  I'd be very surprised if this was put out there by Goddell, because as mentioned, it makes him look like he completely bungled the Spygate investigation.  (ESPN isn't being particularly kind to Goddell about his role in the first investigation, either.)

If it wasn't Goddell, and it obviously wasn't the Patriots, it's got to be opposing teams / owners.  I'd guess AFC rivals.

[Donoghus]

Even more evidence that ESPN is simply a shill for the NFL

I'm not sure this is even it.  That article was as hard on Goodell as it was the Patriots - it painted him as a power-hungry, incompetent snake who cares more about perception than truth. 

This article was put out there by owners unhappy with the fact that the Patriots haven't gotten their "comeuppance."  Equally frustrated by Goodell's inability to truly punish the Pats as they are with the Pats' ability to "get away with" cheating.

Yeah, I can buy that theory.  I'd be very surprised if this was put out there by Goddell, because as mentioned, it makes him look like he completely bungled the Spygate investigation.  (ESPN isn't being particularly kind to Goddell about his role in the first investigation, either.)

If it wasn't Goddell, and it obviously wasn't the Patriots, it's got to be opposing teams / owners.  I'd guess AFC rivals.

I tend to agree.  I just wonder, what the heck do they plan to accomplish here? 

Try to spin things to appease Ravens/Colts fans from a PR standpoint?  Basically say that justice tried to be served but the Commissioner screwed it up?  A "don't look at us, we tried" thing?

[Moranis]

So the NFL...cough...I mean ESPN is really going to dredge up something from 8 years ago that the organization was punished for?

Oh, and it comes up less than a week since the NFL got defeated in court involving a member from that same team in a different high profile controversy?  C'mon.......

This just reeks of trying to save face or, even worse, a simple smear job. 

No question it does that, but it also might answer the question as to why the NFL came down so hard on the Patriots for some deflated footballs.  I mean that is a pretty common theme throughout this thread, why punish the Patriots so harshly for something that other teams get a slap on the wrist for?  Well now you have your answer, those other teams weren't undergoing widespread cheating for years.

The Patriots have always played fast and loose with the rules, so any rule violation, no matter how minor, is going to be looked at differently with the Patriots than any other organization.  It is the whole live by the sword die by the sword mentality.  when you skirt the line, you had better [dang] well make sure you don't cross it.

You are completely ignoring the fact that Bill Cowler, coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers during the period all of this time during which video taping occurred, says that every team was doing this.  Why don't you acknoweledge this? What does Cowler have to gain by making his observation?  And certainly he is quailifed to make it, he coached one of our biggest competitiors vying for Super Bowls during that era.

stealing signals and illegally videotaping aren't the same thing.  The Steelers never illegally videotaped.

Every team was video taping signals from 2001 through 2006.  Every team. That is what Cowler said. The ESPN article (and you) mislead others by saying only the Patriots were doing this. This widespread practice caused the NFL sent out a memo to teams saying that they must stop it.  Belichick disingenuously interpreted the memo by claiming it only applied to real time usage, and in so doing, was reprimanded (I would argue, severely) for this in 2007.  Do you really want to continue to claim that other teams were not video taping other team's signal calling during 2001-06?

except Cowher didn't actually say that.  He said

“The only thing they got caught (was) doing it with a camera,” Cowher said, referring to the Patriots. “We had people that always tried to steal signals. Stealing someone’s signals was a part of the game, and everyone attempted to do that.”

According to Cowher, his team used wristbands to try to identify opponents’ verbal signals that were being yelled out on the field.

But hey, let's not let facts get in the way.

Ethically speaking, I don't see any difference. Either way, you're "stealing" signals—which, for the record, I think is fine; I don't think there should be some "unwritten rule" (as there seems to be in baseball, too) where teams can openly give signals but opponents are supposed to, what? Look away? It's stupid. Of course teams are going to try to figure out the opposition, and they should be able to try to do that.

I'm guessing that Belichick looks at some of these rules, sees the lack of logic behind them, and figures, "Ah, what the heck, let's give this a shot." And I completely agree. There's no ethical difference between seeing signals and taping them. Both are examples of "stealing" signals. But if you're going to rely on signals that opponents can see, it's your own dang fault if they get "stolen." Similarly, what's the logic of the NFL's psi range of 12.5 to 13.5 (or whatever it is precisely)? Why not 12.4? Or 13.7? Or 12, or 14? Is there science behind that? Seems arbitrary to me.

Besides all this, if Belichick and/or the Patriots weren't punished severely enough for some folks' liking, that's Goodell's fault. And when are people going to realize that NE was just as successful (maybe more so) after Spygate as before? Just like they were more successful against the Colts in the second half with "legit" footballs.

There is a fairly big difference between taping signals and just observing signals.  One allows you to watch it over and over again to learn patterns, one does not.  That is why the rule is in place and that is why "stealing signals" is a lot different than "taping signals".  One is against the rules and one is not.

This is an excerpt from article going into history of video-taping of signals. (Why do you keep insisting that only the Patriots did this??)

"It’s not known when someone first filmed coaching signals. It goes back at least to 1990 when Marty Schottenheimer coached Kansas City. Both on a Fox pregame show and on WFAN, a New York radio station, Jimmy Johnson, who coached the Dallas Cowboys to two Super Bowl Championships, said he also had staffers tape opposing coaches.
 
Johnson said teams could tape signals from the press box, but sometimes the press box was on the wrong side of the field. In that case, the cameraman filmed from the sidelines. Johnson, who also had interns search other teams’ trash for discarded notes and game plans, said taping coaches wasn’t worth the effort and abandoned it.
 
Johnson learned the procedure in 1990 from Mark Hatley, a Kansas Cityscout, who taught him how Marty Schottenheimer’s Chiefs did it. Johnson praised one Schottenheimer assistant, Howard Mudd, as “the best in the entire league at stealing signals.”  During much of the current decade, including their Super Bowl year, Mudd worked for the Indianapolis Colts.
 
One of Belichick’s fiercest Spygate critics and Mudd’s boss from 2002-2008 with the Colts, Tony Dungy, also served on Schottenheimer’s Kansas City staff. Other notable Schottenheimer assistants in Kansas City include Herm Edwards, who later served as the Jets' head coach before returning to the Chiefs in that capacity.
 
Edwards was so familiar with taping tactics that he waved to the Patriots' camera recording him. Long time Steelers' coach Bill Cowher also worked for Schottenheimer in Kansas City. During his career,Schottenheimer also coached the Cleveland Browns, Washington Redskins, and San Diego Chargers.
 
During Schottenheimer’s first few seasons in Kansas City, offenses still used hand signals too, meaning his defense also benefited from deciphering signals.
 
The media reports as if filming opposing coaches is a violation of NFL rules. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell shares this belief and apparently based his punishment on it."

But that is why the NFL cracked down on it and issued the mandate in 2006 which the Patriots clearly violated. 

[Moranis]

So the NFL...cough...I mean ESPN is really going to dredge up something from 8 years ago that the organization was punished for?

Oh, and it comes up less than a week since the NFL got defeated in court involving a member from that same team in a different high profile controversy?  C'mon.......

This just reeks of trying to save face or, even worse, a simple smear job. 

No question it does that, but it also might answer the question as to why the NFL came down so hard on the Patriots for some deflated footballs.  I mean that is a pretty common theme throughout this thread, why punish the Patriots so harshly for something that other teams get a slap on the wrist for?  Well now you have your answer, those other teams weren't undergoing widespread cheating for years.

The Patriots have always played fast and loose with the rules, so any rule violation, no matter how minor, is going to be looked at differently with the Patriots than any other organization.  It is the whole live by the sword die by the sword mentality.  when you skirt the line, you had better [dang] well make sure you don't cross it.

You are completely ignoring the fact that Bill Cowler, coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers during the period all of this time during which video taping occurred, says that every team was doing this.  Why don't you acknoweledge this? What does Cowler have to gain by making his observation?  And certainly he is quailifed to make it, he coached one of our biggest competitiors vying for Super Bowls during that era.

stealing signals and illegally videotaping aren't the same thing.  The Steelers never illegally videotaped.

Every team was video taping signals from 2001 through 2006.  Every team. That is what Cowler said. The ESPN article (and you) mislead others by saying only the Patriots were doing this. This widespread practice caused the NFL sent out a memo to teams saying that they must stop it.  Belichick disingenuously interpreted the memo by claiming it only applied to real time usage, and in so doing, was reprimanded (I would argue, severely) for this in 2007.  Do you really want to continue to claim that other teams were not video taping other team's signal calling during 2001-06?

This was common practice league wide since the mid 80s.  And they weren't being sneaky about it.  The guy had a large camera and was in full view of the refs, league officials, and opposing players and coaches.  Belichick was arrogant and ignored the memo as he felt he had a better understanding of the rule than the commissioner.  All he had to do was move the cameraman off the sidelines to a designated area for filming.  Belichick should have been punished and he was, but it's much ado about nothing.  The Patriots went on to win 17 straight games after stopping the practice.

You actually were not allowed to video tape signals.  Doesn't matter where the camera was, you weren't allowed to do it.  Period.  That is why the punishment was fairly severe, if it has just been a case where a guy was in the wrong spot, you don't see that punishment.

"Videotaping opposing coaches is not illegal in the NFL but there are designated areas allowed by the league to do such taping."  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_England_Patriots_videotaping_controversy


"COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT SPYGATE

YOU'RE WRONG IF YOU THINK: Filming you opponents' signals is prohibited by the league and is therefore a serious cheating infraction.

REALITY: Filming your opponents' signals is -- and always has been -- completely legal, even today. After a league memo to all clubs in 2006, however, you can't do it from a location where the team could potentially use it during the same game.

As Coach Bill Belichick noted in 2015, 80,000 people can see his team's defensive signals: millions more if a TV camera pans by them. The signals are not meant to be hidden, just as in baseball a third-base coach's signals are not meant to be hidden. They should, however, be properly encrypted, but that is the signaling team's responsibility.

Every single NFL team films every single game they play from multiple angles. As they do this, are they supposed to locate and black out the one part of the stadium where the defensive coach is? Should it be a roaming dot if he moves? Obviously not, because the sidelines are just another part of the larger football field and game."
http://yourteamcheats.com/what-is-spygate

This is from the league directive sent in 2006.

"Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.''

So you can't tape signals from anywhere in the stadium during the game, which is basically what I said.  You should never rely on Wikipedia for your information.

You are not reading closely enough.  It is not allowed where it can be accessed by the team to use in the game which is what you quoted says.  There are, however, designated locations for filming where it is allowed. 

This has been sitting on Wikipedia's website for nearly 8 years and the NFL has never attempted to correct it and that is because it is correct.

Here is a 2008 article on it http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=chadiha_jeffri&id=3017423 

a quote pertinent to this point

Added one NFC personnel director: "What the Patriots did is extremely rare because it's against the rules. It's one of those things that if it's not Bill Belichick involved, you wonder if the coach survives something like that. What is more normal is something like a guy sitting in a press box trying to steal signs by looking at the coaches. That's why the home team usually has its back to the press box when they're in their own stadium."

and another

"This is the first time I've heard of somebody doing what New England did," one AFC personnel director said. "It wouldn't surprise me if somebody else has tried it in the past but the bottom line is that it's illegal. We all get the same memos from the league each season telling us what we can't do."

And let's also remember that with the increase of technology you can record something from anywhere it be on the field in a matter of seconds.  So you basically can't video tape the opposing sideline during the game you are playing anymore.   

The Patriots violated the rules, they got caught, they got punished, but the punishment was fairly light by most accounts.  Some believe Goodell even went to Kraft and told him, look if you get caught cheating again, I'm dropping the hammer.  That was deflategate.  That is why the penalty for some deflated footballs seems so harsh.  When you are dealing with an organization that is known to skirt the rules and walk the line between legal and illegal, and when you catch them in the act, you drop the hammer on them.  That is the only way they learn.

[Roy H.]

Even more evidence that ESPN is simply a shill for the NFL

I'm not sure this is even it.  That article was as hard on Goodell as it was the Patriots - it painted him as a power-hungry, incompetent snake who cares more about perception than truth. 

This article was put out there by owners unhappy with the fact that the Patriots haven't gotten their "comeuppance."  Equally frustrated by Goodell's inability to truly punish the Pats as they are with the Pats' ability to "get away with" cheating.

Yeah, I can buy that theory.  I'd be very surprised if this was put out there by Goddell, because as mentioned, it makes him look like he completely bungled the Spygate investigation.  (ESPN isn't being particularly kind to Goddell about his role in the first investigation, either.)

If it wasn't Goddell, and it obviously wasn't the Patriots, it's got to be opposing teams / owners.  I'd guess AFC rivals.

I tend to agree.  I just wonder, what the heck do they plan to accomplish here? 

Try to spin things to appease Ravens/Colts fans from a PR standpoint?  Basically say that justice tried to be served but the Commissioner screwed it up?  A "don't look at us, we tried" thing?

I think that's right.  Also, if you're the Jets / Dolphins / Bills, it's easier for fans to excuse your failures if you've got a scapegoat to point to.  A lot of fanbases will lap up the "the reason we can't win is because the Pats have been cheating, and the NFL / courts have let them get away with it" argument.

[Roy H.]

Regarding the allegations...  the DeflateGate stuff didn't bother me, and Spygate was relatively minor. 

The only allegation that really disgusts me, if true, is sending personnel into the locker room to steal play sheets.  To me, the opposing locker room should be off-limits, and stealing play calls ahead of time is just blatant cheating.  IF this actually happened, and IF Goddell overlooked it, I think it's a serious breach of the best interests of the game.  Much like the St. Louis Cardinals hacking thing, I think espionage like this is a step too far, and should have had severe consequences (again, if proven).

[GratefulCs]

So the NFL...cough...I mean ESPN is really going to dredge up something from 8 years ago that the organization was punished for?

Oh, and it comes up less than a week since the NFL got defeated in court involving a member from that same team in a different high profile controversy?  C'mon.......

This just reeks of trying to save face or, even worse, a simple smear job. 

No question it does that, but it also might answer the question as to why the NFL came down so hard on the Patriots for some deflated footballs.  I mean that is a pretty common theme throughout this thread, why punish the Patriots so harshly for something that other teams get a slap on the wrist for?  Well now you have your answer, those other teams weren't undergoing widespread cheating for years.

The Patriots have always played fast and loose with the rules, so any rule violation, no matter how minor, is going to be looked at differently with the Patriots than any other organization.  It is the whole live by the sword die by the sword mentality.  when you skirt the line, you had better [dang] well make sure you don't cross it.

You are completely ignoring the fact that Bill Cowler, coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers during the period all of this time during which video taping occurred, says that every team was doing this.  Why don't you acknoweledge this? What does Cowler have to gain by making his observation?  And certainly he is quailifed to make it, he coached one of our biggest competitiors vying for Super Bowls during that era.

stealing signals and illegally videotaping aren't the same thing.  The Steelers never illegally videotaped.

Every team was video taping signals from 2001 through 2006.  Every team. That is what Cowler said. The ESPN article (and you) mislead others by saying only the Patriots were doing this. This widespread practice caused the NFL sent out a memo to teams saying that they must stop it.  Belichick disingenuously interpreted the memo by claiming it only applied to real time usage, and in so doing, was reprimanded (I would argue, severely) for this in 2007.  Do you really want to continue to claim that other teams were not video taping other team's signal calling during 2001-06?

This was common practice league wide since the mid 80s.  And they weren't being sneaky about it.  The guy had a large camera and was in full view of the refs, league officials, and opposing players and coaches.  Belichick was arrogant and ignored the memo as he felt he had a better understanding of the rule than the commissioner.  All he had to do was move the cameraman off the sidelines to a designated area for filming.  Belichick should have been punished and he was, but it's much ado about nothing.  The Patriots went on to win 17 straight games after stopping the practice.

You actually were not allowed to video tape signals.  Doesn't matter where the camera was, you weren't allowed to do it.  Period.  That is why the punishment was fairly severe, if it has just been a case where a guy was in the wrong spot, you don't see that punishment.

"Videotaping opposing coaches is not illegal in the NFL but there are designated areas allowed by the league to do such taping."  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_England_Patriots_videotaping_controversy


"COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT SPYGATE

YOU'RE WRONG IF YOU THINK: Filming you opponents' signals is prohibited by the league and is therefore a serious cheating infraction.

REALITY: Filming your opponents' signals is -- and always has been -- completely legal, even today. After a league memo to all clubs in 2006, however, you can't do it from a location where the team could potentially use it during the same game.

As Coach Bill Belichick noted in 2015, 80,000 people can see his team's defensive signals: millions more if a TV camera pans by them. The signals are not meant to be hidden, just as in baseball a third-base coach's signals are not meant to be hidden. They should, however, be properly encrypted, but that is the signaling team's responsibility.

Every single NFL team films every single game they play from multiple angles. As they do this, are they supposed to locate and black out the one part of the stadium where the defensive coach is? Should it be a roaming dot if he moves? Obviously not, because the sidelines are just another part of the larger football field and game."
http://yourteamcheats.com/what-is-spygate

This is from the league directive sent in 2006.

"Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.''

So you can't tape signals from anywhere in the stadium during the game, which is basically what I said.  You should never rely on Wikipedia for your information.

You are not reading closely enough.  It is not allowed where it can be accessed by the team to use in the game which is what you quoted says.  There are, however, designated locations for filming where it is allowed. 

This has been sitting on Wikipedia's website for nearly 8 years and the NFL has never attempted to correct it and that is because it is correct.

Here is a 2008 article on it http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=chadiha_jeffri&id=3017423 

a quote pertinent to this point

Added one NFC personnel director: "What the Patriots did is extremely rare because it's against the rules. It's one of those things that if it's not Bill Belichick involved, you wonder if the coach survives something like that. What is more normal is something like a guy sitting in a press box trying to steal signs by looking at the coaches. That's why the home team usually has its back to the press box when they're in their own stadium."

and another

"This is the first time I've heard of somebody doing what New England did," one AFC personnel director said. "It wouldn't surprise me if somebody else has tried it in the past but the bottom line is that it's illegal. We all get the same memos from the league each season telling us what we can't do."

And let's also remember that with the increase of technology you can record something from anywhere it be on the field in a matter of seconds.  So you basically can't video tape the opposing sideline during the game you are playing anymore.   

The Patriots violated the rules, they got caught, they got punished, but the punishment was fairly light by most accounts.  Some believe Goodell even went to Kraft and told him, look if you get caught cheating again, I'm dropping the hammer.  That was deflategate.  That is why the penalty for some deflated footballs seems so harsh.  When you are dealing with an organization that is known to skirt the rules and walk the line between legal and illegal, and when you catch them in the act, you drop the hammer on them.  That is the only way they learn.

the only way they learn..

They still find ways around rules



And i LOVE it


Bend it til it breaks

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

So the NFL...cough...I mean ESPN is really going to dredge up something from 8 years ago that the organization was punished for?

Oh, and it comes up less than a week since the NFL got defeated in court involving a member from that same team in a different high profile controversy?  C'mon.......

This just reeks of trying to save face or, even worse, a simple smear job. 

No question it does that, but it also might answer the question as to why the NFL came down so hard on the Patriots for some deflated footballs.  I mean that is a pretty common theme throughout this thread, why punish the Patriots so harshly for something that other teams get a slap on the wrist for?  Well now you have your answer, those other teams weren't undergoing widespread cheating for years.

The Patriots have always played fast and loose with the rules, so any rule violation, no matter how minor, is going to be looked at differently with the Patriots than any other organization.  It is the whole live by the sword die by the sword mentality.  when you skirt the line, you had better [dang] well make sure you don't cross it.

You are completely ignoring the fact that Bill Cowler, coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers during the period all of this time during which video taping occurred, says that every team was doing this.  Why don't you acknoweledge this? What does Cowler have to gain by making his observation?  And certainly he is quailifed to make it, he coached one of our biggest competitiors vying for Super Bowls during that era.

stealing signals and illegally videotaping aren't the same thing.  The Steelers never illegally videotaped.

Every team was video taping signals from 2001 through 2006.  Every team. That is what Cowler said. The ESPN article (and you) mislead others by saying only the Patriots were doing this. This widespread practice caused the NFL sent out a memo to teams saying that they must stop it.  Belichick disingenuously interpreted the memo by claiming it only applied to real time usage, and in so doing, was reprimanded (I would argue, severely) for this in 2007.  Do you really want to continue to claim that other teams were not video taping other team's signal calling during 2001-06?

except Cowher didn't actually say that.  He said

“The only thing they got caught (was) doing it with a camera,” Cowher said, referring to the Patriots. “We had people that always tried to steal signals. Stealing someone’s signals was a part of the game, and everyone attempted to do that.”

According to Cowher, his team used wristbands to try to identify opponents’ verbal signals that were being yelled out on the field.

But hey, let's not let facts get in the way.

Ethically speaking, I don't see any difference. Either way, you're "stealing" signals—which, for the record, I think is fine; I don't think there should be some "unwritten rule" (as there seems to be in baseball, too) where teams can openly give signals but opponents are supposed to, what? Look away? It's stupid. Of course teams are going to try to figure out the opposition, and they should be able to try to do that.

I'm guessing that Belichick looks at some of these rules, sees the lack of logic behind them, and figures, "Ah, what the heck, let's give this a shot." And I completely agree. There's no ethical difference between seeing signals and taping them. Both are examples of "stealing" signals. But if you're going to rely on signals that opponents can see, it's your own dang fault if they get "stolen." Similarly, what's the logic of the NFL's psi range of 12.5 to 13.5 (or whatever it is precisely)? Why not 12.4? Or 13.7? Or 12, or 14? Is there science behind that? Seems arbitrary to me.

Besides all this, if Belichick and/or the Patriots weren't punished severely enough for some folks' liking, that's Goodell's fault. And when are people going to realize that NE was just as successful (maybe more so) after Spygate as before? Just like they were more successful against the Colts in the second half with "legit" footballs.

There is a fairly big difference between taping signals and just observing signals.  One allows you to watch it over and over again to learn patterns, one does not.  That is why the rule is in place and that is why "stealing signals" is a lot different than "taping signals".  One is against the rules and one is not.

In practical terms, yes, there's a difference. But ethically? No, there's no difference—if you're trying to steal signals, you're trying to steal signals. Period. But as I've said before, if you're doing things out in the open, where anyone can see it ...

[footey]

So the NFL...cough...I mean ESPN is really going to dredge up something from 8 years ago that the organization was punished for?

Oh, and it comes up less than a week since the NFL got defeated in court involving a member from that same team in a different high profile controversy?  C'mon.......

This just reeks of trying to save face or, even worse, a simple smear job. 

No question it does that, but it also might answer the question as to why the NFL came down so hard on the Patriots for some deflated footballs.  I mean that is a pretty common theme throughout this thread, why punish the Patriots so harshly for something that other teams get a slap on the wrist for?  Well now you have your answer, those other teams weren't undergoing widespread cheating for years.

The Patriots have always played fast and loose with the rules, so any rule violation, no matter how minor, is going to be looked at differently with the Patriots than any other organization.  It is the whole live by the sword die by the sword mentality.  when you skirt the line, you had better [dang] well make sure you don't cross it.

You are completely ignoring the fact that Bill Cowler, coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers during the period all of this time during which video taping occurred, says that every team was doing this.  Why don't you acknoweledge this? What does Cowler have to gain by making his observation?  And certainly he is quailifed to make it, he coached one of our biggest competitiors vying for Super Bowls during that era.

stealing signals and illegally videotaping aren't the same thing.  The Steelers never illegally videotaped.

Every team was video taping signals from 2001 through 2006.  Every team. That is what Cowler said. The ESPN article (and you) mislead others by saying only the Patriots were doing this. This widespread practice caused the NFL sent out a memo to teams saying that they must stop it.  Belichick disingenuously interpreted the memo by claiming it only applied to real time usage, and in so doing, was reprimanded (I would argue, severely) for this in 2007.  Do you really want to continue to claim that other teams were not video taping other team's signal calling during 2001-06?

except Cowher didn't actually say that.  He said

“The only thing they got caught (was) doing it with a camera,” Cowher said, referring to the Patriots. “We had people that always tried to steal signals. Stealing someone’s signals was a part of the game, and everyone attempted to do that.”

According to Cowher, his team used wristbands to try to identify opponents’ verbal signals that were being yelled out on the field.

But hey, let's not let facts get in the way.

Ethically speaking, I don't see any difference. Either way, you're "stealing" signals—which, for the record, I think is fine; I don't think there should be some "unwritten rule" (as there seems to be in baseball, too) where teams can openly give signals but opponents are supposed to, what? Look away? It's stupid. Of course teams are going to try to figure out the opposition, and they should be able to try to do that.

I'm guessing that Belichick looks at some of these rules, sees the lack of logic behind them, and figures, "Ah, what the heck, let's give this a shot." And I completely agree. There's no ethical difference between seeing signals and taping them. Both are examples of "stealing" signals. But if you're going to rely on signals that opponents can see, it's your own dang fault if they get "stolen." Similarly, what's the logic of the NFL's psi range of 12.5 to 13.5 (or whatever it is precisely)? Why not 12.4? Or 13.7? Or 12, or 14? Is there science behind that? Seems arbitrary to me.

Besides all this, if Belichick and/or the Patriots weren't punished severely enough for some folks' liking, that's Goodell's fault. And when are people going to realize that NE was just as successful (maybe more so) after Spygate as before? Just like they were more successful against the Colts in the second half with "legit" footballs.

There is a fairly big difference between taping signals and just observing signals.  One allows you to watch it over and over again to learn patterns, one does not.  That is why the rule is in place and that is why "stealing signals" is a lot different than "taping signals".  One is against the rules and one is not.

This is an excerpt from article going into history of video-taping of signals. (Why do you keep insisting that only the Patriots did this??)

"It’s not known when someone first filmed coaching signals. It goes back at least to 1990 when Marty Schottenheimer coached Kansas City. Both on a Fox pregame show and on WFAN, a New York radio station, Jimmy Johnson, who coached the Dallas Cowboys to two Super Bowl Championships, said he also had staffers tape opposing coaches.
 
Johnson said teams could tape signals from the press box, but sometimes the press box was on the wrong side of the field. In that case, the cameraman filmed from the sidelines. Johnson, who also had interns search other teams’ trash for discarded notes and game plans, said taping coaches wasn’t worth the effort and abandoned it.
 
Johnson learned the procedure in 1990 from Mark Hatley, a Kansas Cityscout, who taught him how Marty Schottenheimer’s Chiefs did it. Johnson praised one Schottenheimer assistant, Howard Mudd, as “the best in the entire league at stealing signals.”  During much of the current decade, including their Super Bowl year, Mudd worked for the Indianapolis Colts.
 
One of Belichick’s fiercest Spygate critics and Mudd’s boss from 2002-2008 with the Colts, Tony Dungy, also served on Schottenheimer’s Kansas City staff. Other notable Schottenheimer assistants in Kansas City include Herm Edwards, who later served as the Jets' head coach before returning to the Chiefs in that capacity.
 
Edwards was so familiar with taping tactics that he waved to the Patriots' camera recording him. Long time Steelers' coach Bill Cowher also worked for Schottenheimer in Kansas City. During his career,Schottenheimer also coached the Cleveland Browns, Washington Redskins, and San Diego Chargers.
 
During Schottenheimer’s first few seasons in Kansas City, offenses still used hand signals too, meaning his defense also benefited from deciphering signals.
 
The media reports as if filming opposing coaches is a violation of NFL rules. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell shares this belief and apparently based his punishment on it."

But that is why the NFL cracked down on it and issued the mandate in 2006 which the Patriots clearly violated.

OK, but my original point, I think it got lost, is that many, if not all, teams, were video taping the opponent's signals for many years until 2006. Today's ESPN article states that the Patriots were found to have done this, but neglects to mention that other teams did this as well, at least until 2006.

[Moranis]

So the NFL...cough...I mean ESPN is really going to dredge up something from 8 years ago that the organization was punished for?

Oh, and it comes up less than a week since the NFL got defeated in court involving a member from that same team in a different high profile controversy?  C'mon.......

This just reeks of trying to save face or, even worse, a simple smear job. 

No question it does that, but it also might answer the question as to why the NFL came down so hard on the Patriots for some deflated footballs.  I mean that is a pretty common theme throughout this thread, why punish the Patriots so harshly for something that other teams get a slap on the wrist for?  Well now you have your answer, those other teams weren't undergoing widespread cheating for years.

The Patriots have always played fast and loose with the rules, so any rule violation, no matter how minor, is going to be looked at differently with the Patriots than any other organization.  It is the whole live by the sword die by the sword mentality.  when you skirt the line, you had better [dang] well make sure you don't cross it.

You are completely ignoring the fact that Bill Cowler, coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers during the period all of this time during which video taping occurred, says that every team was doing this.  Why don't you acknoweledge this? What does Cowler have to gain by making his observation?  And certainly he is quailifed to make it, he coached one of our biggest competitiors vying for Super Bowls during that era.

stealing signals and illegally videotaping aren't the same thing.  The Steelers never illegally videotaped.

Every team was video taping signals from 2001 through 2006.  Every team. That is what Cowler said. The ESPN article (and you) mislead others by saying only the Patriots were doing this. This widespread practice caused the NFL sent out a memo to teams saying that they must stop it.  Belichick disingenuously interpreted the memo by claiming it only applied to real time usage, and in so doing, was reprimanded (I would argue, severely) for this in 2007.  Do you really want to continue to claim that other teams were not video taping other team's signal calling during 2001-06?

except Cowher didn't actually say that.  He said

“The only thing they got caught (was) doing it with a camera,” Cowher said, referring to the Patriots. “We had people that always tried to steal signals. Stealing someone’s signals was a part of the game, and everyone attempted to do that.”

According to Cowher, his team used wristbands to try to identify opponents’ verbal signals that were being yelled out on the field.

But hey, let's not let facts get in the way.

Ethically speaking, I don't see any difference. Either way, you're "stealing" signals—which, for the record, I think is fine; I don't think there should be some "unwritten rule" (as there seems to be in baseball, too) where teams can openly give signals but opponents are supposed to, what? Look away? It's stupid. Of course teams are going to try to figure out the opposition, and they should be able to try to do that.

I'm guessing that Belichick looks at some of these rules, sees the lack of logic behind them, and figures, "Ah, what the heck, let's give this a shot." And I completely agree. There's no ethical difference between seeing signals and taping them. Both are examples of "stealing" signals. But if you're going to rely on signals that opponents can see, it's your own dang fault if they get "stolen." Similarly, what's the logic of the NFL's psi range of 12.5 to 13.5 (or whatever it is precisely)? Why not 12.4? Or 13.7? Or 12, or 14? Is there science behind that? Seems arbitrary to me.

Besides all this, if Belichick and/or the Patriots weren't punished severely enough for some folks' liking, that's Goodell's fault. And when are people going to realize that NE was just as successful (maybe more so) after Spygate as before? Just like they were more successful against the Colts in the second half with "legit" footballs.

There is a fairly big difference between taping signals and just observing signals.  One allows you to watch it over and over again to learn patterns, one does not.  That is why the rule is in place and that is why "stealing signals" is a lot different than "taping signals".  One is against the rules and one is not.

This is an excerpt from article going into history of video-taping of signals. (Why do you keep insisting that only the Patriots did this??)

"It’s not known when someone first filmed coaching signals. It goes back at least to 1990 when Marty Schottenheimer coached Kansas City. Both on a Fox pregame show and on WFAN, a New York radio station, Jimmy Johnson, who coached the Dallas Cowboys to two Super Bowl Championships, said he also had staffers tape opposing coaches.
 
Johnson said teams could tape signals from the press box, but sometimes the press box was on the wrong side of the field. In that case, the cameraman filmed from the sidelines. Johnson, who also had interns search other teams’ trash for discarded notes and game plans, said taping coaches wasn’t worth the effort and abandoned it.
 
Johnson learned the procedure in 1990 from Mark Hatley, a Kansas Cityscout, who taught him how Marty Schottenheimer’s Chiefs did it. Johnson praised one Schottenheimer assistant, Howard Mudd, as “the best in the entire league at stealing signals.”  During much of the current decade, including their Super Bowl year, Mudd worked for the Indianapolis Colts.
 
One of Belichick’s fiercest Spygate critics and Mudd’s boss from 2002-2008 with the Colts, Tony Dungy, also served on Schottenheimer’s Kansas City staff. Other notable Schottenheimer assistants in Kansas City include Herm Edwards, who later served as the Jets' head coach before returning to the Chiefs in that capacity.
 
Edwards was so familiar with taping tactics that he waved to the Patriots' camera recording him. Long time Steelers' coach Bill Cowher also worked for Schottenheimer in Kansas City. During his career,Schottenheimer also coached the Cleveland Browns, Washington Redskins, and San Diego Chargers.
 
During Schottenheimer’s first few seasons in Kansas City, offenses still used hand signals too, meaning his defense also benefited from deciphering signals.
 
The media reports as if filming opposing coaches is a violation of NFL rules. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell shares this belief and apparently based his punishment on it."

But that is why the NFL cracked down on it and issued the mandate in 2006 which the Patriots clearly violated.

OK, but my original point, I think it got lost, is that many, if not all, teams, were video taping the opponent's signals for many years until 2006. Today's ESPN article states that the Patriots were found to have done this, but neglects to mention that other teams did this as well, at least until 2006.

the article you have there talks about the 90's, not the 00's.  The league in fact started cracking down on it at the end of the 90's, they just reiterated the policy in 2006

[Moranis]

So the NFL...cough...I mean ESPN is really going to dredge up something from 8 years ago that the organization was punished for?

Oh, and it comes up less than a week since the NFL got defeated in court involving a member from that same team in a different high profile controversy?  C'mon.......

This just reeks of trying to save face or, even worse, a simple smear job. 

No question it does that, but it also might answer the question as to why the NFL came down so hard on the Patriots for some deflated footballs.  I mean that is a pretty common theme throughout this thread, why punish the Patriots so harshly for something that other teams get a slap on the wrist for?  Well now you have your answer, those other teams weren't undergoing widespread cheating for years.

The Patriots have always played fast and loose with the rules, so any rule violation, no matter how minor, is going to be looked at differently with the Patriots than any other organization.  It is the whole live by the sword die by the sword mentality.  when you skirt the line, you had better [dang] well make sure you don't cross it.

You are completely ignoring the fact that Bill Cowler, coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers during the period all of this time during which video taping occurred, says that every team was doing this.  Why don't you acknoweledge this? What does Cowler have to gain by making his observation?  And certainly he is quailifed to make it, he coached one of our biggest competitiors vying for Super Bowls during that era.

stealing signals and illegally videotaping aren't the same thing.  The Steelers never illegally videotaped.

Every team was video taping signals from 2001 through 2006.  Every team. That is what Cowler said. The ESPN article (and you) mislead others by saying only the Patriots were doing this. This widespread practice caused the NFL sent out a memo to teams saying that they must stop it.  Belichick disingenuously interpreted the memo by claiming it only applied to real time usage, and in so doing, was reprimanded (I would argue, severely) for this in 2007.  Do you really want to continue to claim that other teams were not video taping other team's signal calling during 2001-06?

except Cowher didn't actually say that.  He said

“The only thing they got caught (was) doing it with a camera,” Cowher said, referring to the Patriots. “We had people that always tried to steal signals. Stealing someone’s signals was a part of the game, and everyone attempted to do that.”

According to Cowher, his team used wristbands to try to identify opponents’ verbal signals that were being yelled out on the field.

But hey, let's not let facts get in the way.

Ethically speaking, I don't see any difference. Either way, you're "stealing" signals—which, for the record, I think is fine; I don't think there should be some "unwritten rule" (as there seems to be in baseball, too) where teams can openly give signals but opponents are supposed to, what? Look away? It's stupid. Of course teams are going to try to figure out the opposition, and they should be able to try to do that.

I'm guessing that Belichick looks at some of these rules, sees the lack of logic behind them, and figures, "Ah, what the heck, let's give this a shot." And I completely agree. There's no ethical difference between seeing signals and taping them. Both are examples of "stealing" signals. But if you're going to rely on signals that opponents can see, it's your own dang fault if they get "stolen." Similarly, what's the logic of the NFL's psi range of 12.5 to 13.5 (or whatever it is precisely)? Why not 12.4? Or 13.7? Or 12, or 14? Is there science behind that? Seems arbitrary to me.

Besides all this, if Belichick and/or the Patriots weren't punished severely enough for some folks' liking, that's Goodell's fault. And when are people going to realize that NE was just as successful (maybe more so) after Spygate as before? Just like they were more successful against the Colts in the second half with "legit" footballs.

There is a fairly big difference between taping signals and just observing signals.  One allows you to watch it over and over again to learn patterns, one does not.  That is why the rule is in place and that is why "stealing signals" is a lot different than "taping signals".  One is against the rules and one is not.

In practical terms, yes, there's a difference. But ethically? No, there's no difference—if you're trying to steal signals, you're trying to steal signals. Period. But as I've said before, if you're doing things out in the open, where anyone can see it ...

except you could argue that you aren't really stealing signals if you see them live because everyone can see them.  The stealing comes from taping and then analyzing over and over again to actually learn what each signal means. 

Or you know stealing playbooks like has also been alleged.  Or by bugging the opposing locker-room (like the Patriots have been rumored to have done and that the Saints were punished for doing). 

[Csfan1984]

   Spygate being brought up as reason for coming down hard is silly. The real reason they came down is jealousy and the desire to hurt the Patriots. Why werent the Jets and the other teams that violated taping rules hit like Patriots? Why werent Jags or Colts investigated for deflated footballs? Patriots are being hit because they are not suppose to be possible. The league is supposed to have parity and Pats smack parity in the face.

   Now in spygate the Patriots got in trouble for violating a rule the one year the memo was put out that the rule was going to start being enforced. Not for 7 years as ESPN and NFL is trying to imply. Spygate was a problem because the "taping angle" allowed for signals and the play to be filmed at the same time in one frame. Not filming the signals alone or the plays but the fact you taped them together in the same frame. Think about that. It's a silly rule because any novice video editor even in 1990 could piece a side by side frame anyways.

 As far as the low level employee going into locker that is overstated to say it was practice. That was not routine and it was joked about within the organization not something they try to do but simply happened. Every team has a story like that of some team leaving something out or dropping a play book in the hallway.

It's all more slander and excuses by the NFL and ESPN to hide the hate the league has for the Pats. It's becoming more obvious the more they continue to push these non-stories.

[rondohondo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_NT2LdlIkM&feature=youtu.be