Author Topic: Useless bench players  (Read 7282 times)

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Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2021, 07:27:21 AM »

Kiorrik

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https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&PlayerPosition=F

Grant's not scoring very high, defence-wise, within our team.

He's about middle-of-the-pack in the league at his position, when it comes to defence.

He's no.21 out of 56 Sophomores.

So count him a bit above middle of the pack.

Checked his +- as well. 0. Middle of the pack.

He's a perfectly average player.

Fair point.  However, if you look at his last 15 games (the most you can filter), he effectively leads the team.  (Fournier and Thompson are ahead of him, but they’ve only played in 4 and 6 games over that period due to Covid).  Grant stunk earlier this year, I’ll readily admit it, and Stevens benched him several games.  But he’s really picked up his play of late.  I don’t think Defensive Win Shares is a perfect stat, but I also think it’s no accident that Grant is performing so well in it during the same period he’s regained a prominent place in the rotation, and also during which the Celtics have played better basketball.

No you stunk earlier.

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Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2021, 07:58:19 AM »

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I think the "problem" with Grant and Semi plus a few others from our deep bench is that due injuries and roster weaknesses, they have been being used in roles that are above their pay grade so to speak.

Right now, we have an elite star (Tatum), a star (Brown), a group of starter level players (Walker, Smart, Fournier, Thompson), one new fringe starter (Parker), and a couple of good rotation bench players (Pritchard, RWilliams).  All of these nine are the core rotation.  They will see regular minutes in the regular season and playoffs.

To me, the next tier that is outside the core rotation can maybe be called long bench.  This includes Langford, GWilliams, and Ojeleye.  These are players that are proven as legitimate NBA players and can fill in when needed but aren't quite in that core rotation.  These are not useless players.  In fact they are very useful and every good team needs this type of player.  The trick is to have the personnel that allows you to use these players correctly.

Then there is the deep bench.  We have a few of these (Nesmith, Edwards, Kornet) as does every team.  Ideally, these players are developmental, like Nesmith.  You don't expect them to play that much but the hope is they turn into something.  Our group, for what they are, is really not that bad.  Two-way players are by definition fringe NBA players.  They have one foot in the G-League.  You can't expect them to be more than that.

With Fournier and Parker added, everything lines up much better.  All players can be used at their proper level or below (below meaning having a starter level player like Fournier being used off the bench).  No one has to be used above.


Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2021, 08:42:49 AM »

Offline Sophomore

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I think the "problem" with Grant and Semi plus a few others from our deep bench is that due injuries and roster weaknesses, they have been being used in roles that are above their pay grade so to speak.

Right now, we have an elite star (Tatum), a star (Brown), a group of starter level players (Walker, Smart, Fournier, Thompson), one new fringe starter (Parker), and a couple of good rotation bench players (Pritchard, RWilliams).  All of these nine are the core rotation.  They will see regular minutes in the regular season and playoffs.

To me, the next tier that is outside the core rotation can maybe be called long bench.  This includes Langford, GWilliams, and Ojeleye.  These are players that are proven as legitimate NBA players and can fill in when needed but aren't quite in that core rotation.  These are not useless players.  In fact they are very useful and every good team needs this type of player.  The trick is to have the personnel that allows you to use these players correctly.

Then there is the deep bench.  We have a few of these (Nesmith, Edwards, Kornet) as does every team.  Ideally, these players are developmental, like Nesmith.  You don't expect them to play that much but the hope is they turn into something.  Our group, for what they are, is really not that bad.  Two-way players are by definition fringe NBA players.  They have one foot in the G-League.  You can't expect them to be more than that.

With Fournier and Parker added, everything lines up much better.  All players can be used at their proper level or below (below meaning having a starter level player like Fournier being used off the bench).  No one has to be used above.

TP. This is the right take. People are angry that end of bench players aren’t playing like playoff rotation players. That’s extremely rare - for any team.

Two quibbles. I’m not sure Parker is a fringe starter. If he is it’s a great development but I’m skeptical. I think this year a reasonable but optimistic projection is he’s a good scorer who can be hidden on defense. If we are very lucky his health will hold and his defense will tick up a little as he keeps building back.

While we can’t ask too much of this deep bench, it’s tantalizing to think of how much better our bench would look if the picks landed a little differently. We might have had Bane or Bey instead of Nesmith and we would look better if that had happened. Or if we’d taken Brandon Clarke last year. Hindsight’s perfect of course, but I know there were people who wanted those guys. Nesmith and Langford could still become good rotation players - way too early to give up on them - but I get why people wish we could have that production right now!

Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2021, 09:49:16 AM »

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I think the "problem" with Grant and Semi plus a few others from our deep bench is that due injuries and roster weaknesses, they have been being used in roles that are above their pay grade so to speak.

Right now, we have an elite star (Tatum), a star (Brown), a group of starter level players (Walker, Smart, Fournier, Thompson), one new fringe starter (Parker), and a couple of good rotation bench players (Pritchard, RWilliams).  All of these nine are the core rotation.  They will see regular minutes in the regular season and playoffs.

To me, the next tier that is outside the core rotation can maybe be called long bench.  This includes Langford, GWilliams, and Ojeleye.  These are players that are proven as legitimate NBA players and can fill in when needed but aren't quite in that core rotation.  These are not useless players.  In fact they are very useful and every good team needs this type of player.  The trick is to have the personnel that allows you to use these players correctly.

Then there is the deep bench.  We have a few of these (Nesmith, Edwards, Kornet) as does every team.  Ideally, these players are developmental, like Nesmith.  You don't expect them to play that much but the hope is they turn into something.  Our group, for what they are, is really not that bad.  Two-way players are by definition fringe NBA players.  They have one foot in the G-League.  You can't expect them to be more than that.

With Fournier and Parker added, everything lines up much better.  All players can be used at their proper level or below (below meaning having a starter level player like Fournier being used off the bench).  No one has to be used above.

TP. This is the right take. People are angry that end of bench players aren’t playing like playoff rotation players. That’s extremely rare - for any team.

Two quibbles. I’m not sure Parker is a fringe starter. If he is it’s a great development but I’m skeptical. I think this year a reasonable but optimistic projection is he’s a good scorer who can be hidden on defense. If we are very lucky his health will hold and his defense will tick up a little as he keeps building back.

While we can’t ask too much of this deep bench, it’s tantalizing to think of how much better our bench would look if the picks landed a little differently. We might have had Bane or Bey instead of Nesmith and we would look better if that had happened. Or if we’d taken Brandon Clarke last year. Hindsight’s perfect of course, but I know there were people who wanted those guys. Nesmith and Langford could still become good rotation players - way too early to give up on them - but I get why people wish we could have that production right now!

That is a fair quibble.  In his career, he has started 190 games out of 289 with a career average of about 15 pts/6 rebs.  Last season, he started 23 of 32 games for Atlanta and in his time as a starter for ATL, he played very well, consistent with his career averages (until he hurt his shoulder).  The "if healthy" applies to all players and admittedly more so to a player with the injury history of Parker.

Everyone will apply these qualitative terms differently of course but the main point for me is that he is not Grant Williams.  I feel when he has been on the court, Parker has been a fringe starter.  If he gets hurt, it doesn't matter what he is.  He isn't hurt right now so right now, he is a fringe starter to me.  He certainly played like one in his first game.  If you want to have him as rotation bench instead of fringe starter, I won't quibble back at you.

Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2021, 12:57:10 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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As fun as it is to watch you guys play preschool ...

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&PlayerPosition=F

Grant's not scoring very high, defence-wise, within our team.

He's about middle-of-the-pack in the league at his position, when it comes to defence.

He's no.21 out of 56 Sophomores.

So count him a bit above middle of the pack.

Checked his +- as well. 0. Middle of the pack.

He's a perfectly average player.

Fair point.  However, if you look at his last 15 games (the most you can filter), he effectively leads the team.  (Fournier and Thompson are ahead of him, but they’ve only played in 4 and 6 games over that period due to Covid).  Grant stunk earlier this year, I’ll readily admit it, and Stevens benched him several games.  But he’s really picked up his play of late. I don’t think Defensive Win Shares is a perfect stat, but I also think it’s no accident that Grant is performing so well in it during the same period he’s regained a prominent place in the rotation, and also during which the Celtics have played better basketball.


His defense is passable but this is not....Over the last 10 games Grant is shooting 18% from 3pt and on the season he’s down to 37%.  He’s been averaging 2pts and 2rebs over the last 10. Not acceptable.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2021, 01:22:37 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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As fun as it is to watch you guys play preschool ...

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&PlayerPosition=F

Grant's not scoring very high, defence-wise, within our team.

He's about middle-of-the-pack in the league at his position, when it comes to defence.

He's no.21 out of 56 Sophomores.

So count him a bit above middle of the pack.

Checked his +- as well. 0. Middle of the pack.

He's a perfectly average player.

Fair point.  However, if you look at his last 15 games (the most you can filter), he effectively leads the team.  (Fournier and Thompson are ahead of him, but they’ve only played in 4 and 6 games over that period due to Covid).  Grant stunk earlier this year, I’ll readily admit it, and Stevens benched him several games.  But he’s really picked up his play of late. I don’t think Defensive Win Shares is a perfect stat, but I also think it’s no accident that Grant is performing so well in it during the same period he’s regained a prominent place in the rotation, and also during which the Celtics have played better basketball.


His defense is passable but this is not....Over the last 10 games Grant is shooting 18% from 3pt and on the season he’s down to 37%.  He’s been averaging 2pts and 2rebs over the last 10. Not acceptable.

its not his role to score (except open 3s or offensive rebound tips etc)

He plays a poor man version of Draymond Green  (as we recently saw,  does no scoring)

Grant has dialed up is defense.  But I also feel like he was the victim of "playoff effort" ... which is considered aggressive at the beginning of the season where the refs are trying to establish habits

This is a good time of the year for him.  Can be more physical/get away with more. 


Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2021, 01:25:28 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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As fun as it is to watch you guys play preschool ...

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&PlayerPosition=F

Grant's not scoring very high, defence-wise, within our team.

He's about middle-of-the-pack in the league at his position, when it comes to defence.

He's no.21 out of 56 Sophomores.

So count him a bit above middle of the pack.

Checked his +- as well. 0. Middle of the pack.

He's a perfectly average player.

Fair point.  However, if you look at his last 15 games (the most you can filter), he effectively leads the team.  (Fournier and Thompson are ahead of him, but they’ve only played in 4 and 6 games over that period due to Covid).  Grant stunk earlier this year, I’ll readily admit it, and Stevens benched him several games.  But he’s really picked up his play of late. I don’t think Defensive Win Shares is a perfect stat, but I also think it’s no accident that Grant is performing so well in it during the same period he’s regained a prominent place in the rotation, and also during which the Celtics have played better basketball.


His defense is passable but this is not....Over the last 10 games Grant is shooting 18% from 3pt and on the season he’s down to 37%.  He’s been averaging 2pts and 2rebs over the last 10. Not acceptable.

I agree that his offensive production has sucked.  as bad as the beginning of his rookie year and we all recall how bad that was. 

this is where I'd like to see Danny do something in the offseason to upgrade our backup PF.  Semi and GWill can play passable D usually but they bring essentially nothing on offense and it causes real in-game struggles for the team.  On those rare nights when either one hits even just 2-3 buckets in a half it opens up the floor significantly and our offense struggles so much less.  Semi is who he is at this point and GWill has shown flashes of having a decent shot but next season we really need someone who can come off the bench and be counted on to provide a decent outside shot (18+ footers) that has to be guarded and can score around the bucket without constantly getting stuffed.

Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2021, 01:40:00 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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As fun as it is to watch you guys play preschool ...

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&PlayerPosition=F

Grant's not scoring very high, defence-wise, within our team.

He's about middle-of-the-pack in the league at his position, when it comes to defence.

He's no.21 out of 56 Sophomores.

So count him a bit above middle of the pack.

Checked his +- as well. 0. Middle of the pack.

He's a perfectly average player.

Fair point.  However, if you look at his last 15 games (the most you can filter), he effectively leads the team.  (Fournier and Thompson are ahead of him, but they’ve only played in 4 and 6 games over that period due to Covid).  Grant stunk earlier this year, I’ll readily admit it, and Stevens benched him several games.  But he’s really picked up his play of late. I don’t think Defensive Win Shares is a perfect stat, but I also think it’s no accident that Grant is performing so well in it during the same period he’s regained a prominent place in the rotation, and also during which the Celtics have played better basketball.


His defense is passable but this is not....Over the last 10 games Grant is shooting 18% from 3pt and on the season he’s down to 37%.  He’s been averaging 2pts and 2rebs over the last 10. Not acceptable.

I agree that his offensive production has sucked.  as bad as the beginning of his rookie year and we all recall how bad that was. 

this is where I'd like to see Danny do something in the offseason to upgrade our backup PF.  Semi and GWill can play passable D usually but they bring essentially nothing on offense and it causes real in-game struggles for the team.  On those rare nights when either one hits even just 2-3 buckets in a half it opens up the floor significantly and our offense struggles so much less.  Semi is who he is at this point and GWill has shown flashes of having a decent shot but next season we really need someone who can come off the bench and be counted on to provide a decent outside shot (18+ footers) that has to be guarded and can score around the bucket without constantly getting stuffed.

It’s not just his offensive production. Grant plays nearly 20mpg and has been averaging 2 rebounds per game over 10 games. as a PF... ???

He plays marginal defense and now he’s not shooting the 3 ball well. Semi is at least a versatile defender and can cover the 2,3, 4 positions. He’s more athletic, a better 3pt shooter and occasionally
gets to the rim.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2021, 04:54:47 PM »

Online liam

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Has anyone seen what Jared Sullinger looks like? I hear he's trying to make a comeback. We could always use another rebounder if he can still play.... I don't think this needs its own thread or anything. I'm just wondering....

I can't find any recent footage of him or if he's been playing anywhere....
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 05:05:36 PM by liam »

Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2021, 05:20:15 PM »

Offline Scottiej23

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Even if you disregard the PER is doesn’t change the fact that G-Will is not very good at scoring, rebounding or passing, and his defense is average at best due to his lack of height, athleticism and poor lateral quickness.

If you think he’s a quality bench player, that’s fine. I just don’t think that he is.
Wrong

You're wrong.
Prove it

You first...

Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2021, 05:54:53 PM »

Online liam

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Even if you disregard the PER is doesn’t change the fact that G-Will is not very good at scoring, rebounding or passing, and his defense is average at best due to his lack of height, athleticism and poor lateral quickness.

If you think he’s a quality bench player, that’s fine. I just don’t think that he is.
Wrong

You're wrong.
Prove it

You first...

Classic!
 8)

Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2021, 06:16:44 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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Has anyone seen what Jared Sullinger looks like? I hear he's trying to make a comeback. We could always use another rebounder if he can still play.... I don't think this needs its own thread or anything. I'm just wondering....

I can't find any recent footage of him or if he's been playing anywhere....

Apparently he was playing in South Korea in February, dominating some pretty weak competition. https://buckeyeswire.usatoday.com/2021/03/27/ohio-state-basketball-jared-sullinger-drops-41-points-in-south-korea/

Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2021, 06:26:20 PM »

Offline gouki88

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As fun as it is to watch you guys play preschool ...

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&PlayerPosition=F

Grant's not scoring very high, defence-wise, within our team.

He's about middle-of-the-pack in the league at his position, when it comes to defence.

He's no.21 out of 56 Sophomores.

So count him a bit above middle of the pack.

Checked his +- as well. 0. Middle of the pack.

He's a perfectly average player.

Fair point.  However, if you look at his last 15 games (the most you can filter), he effectively leads the team.  (Fournier and Thompson are ahead of him, but they’ve only played in 4 and 6 games over that period due to Covid).  Grant stunk earlier this year, I’ll readily admit it, and Stevens benched him several games.  But he’s really picked up his play of late.  I don’t think Defensive Win Shares is a perfect stat, but I also think it’s no accident that Grant is performing so well in it during the same period he’s regained a prominent place in the rotation, and also during which the Celtics have played better basketball.
Exactly! It was a similar story in his rookie year with his 3 point shot. Couldn't hit the side of the barn, then flipped the switch and became a strong shooter
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2021, 06:26:51 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Has anyone seen what Jared Sullinger looks like? I hear he's trying to make a comeback. We could always use another rebounder if he can still play.... I don't think this needs its own thread or anything. I'm just wondering....

I can't find any recent footage of him or if he's been playing anywhere....

Apparently he was playing in South Korea in February, dominating some pretty weak competition. https://buckeyeswire.usatoday.com/2021/03/27/ohio-state-basketball-jared-sullinger-drops-41-points-in-south-korea/
https://twitter.com/thetournament/status/1375177412762333187

Here's some footage. He does look a lot slimmer than he did in the NBA
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Useless bench players
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2021, 03:28:36 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Grant stunk earlier this year, I’ll readily admit it, and Stevens benched him several games.  But he’s really picked up his play of late.

He still stinks.

Quote
But he’s really picked up his play of late.  I don’t think Defensive Win Shares is a perfect stat, but I also think it’s no accident that Grant is performing so well in it during the same period he’s regained a prominent place in the rotation, and also during which the Celtics have played better basketball.

This is absurd.  He adds very little when on the court statistically and benefits who he plays with.   Do you realize that last night he was:

22 min last night 2 rebounds, 5 points on 1-6 shooting and a - 9 and that is good?   We clearly have different definitions of well.

Even Ainge during the broadcast showed some angst towards him with his "move the ball" comment.   With him his prominent position we are a little better than a .500 team.   A guy playing 20 min a game for a team has to be better at least Romeo has the excuse of being out and can really defend.

Grant seems to be playing a lot harder due to Parker too.   I think he is a smart guy and can see the writing on the wall.   Parker is out producing him at times with no experience in the system.  As for his defensive faults, you must be blind to Grant's because he has the same problems and ever game gives a ton of easy buckets and gets blown by his man and fails to help or rim protect.   He does make an occasional good hustle play but his flopping fooled no one. 

Quote
Has anyone seen what Jared Sullinger looks like? I hear he's trying to make a comeback. We could always use another rebounder if he can still play.... I don't think this needs its own thread or anything. I'm just wondering...

I think you forgot the "can play" part of the equation.  I'd rather have Rob back.   I laughed out of my chair when Cedric said he would add toughness.   We are talking about a guy who ate himself out the league and that is tough.   That shows zero mental toughness and accountability.   Horrible defender, mediocre shooter but a solid rebounder.   There is a reason he is overseas folks and no one took a flyer on him.  The competition over there is very poor.    He does have the one elite specialist skill in that he has great hands and can rebound but that is literally all he brings to the table. 

He is slimmer but he would still have the slow twitch fibers and he could not stay in front of defenders and was routinely targeted by other teams.  I am sure he is older and more mature.   But there are GMs every year with their jobs on the line.   If these guys thought he would help they would have reached out to him.   No one has, I think people love the nostalgia of the idea, but it is clouding people's judgment.

Quote
TP. This is the right take. People are angry that end of bench players aren’t playing like playoff rotation players. That’s extremely rare - for any team.

That is not the problem.  The problem is these guys should not be playing the minutes they are getting.   The roster was flawed and Ainge made some corrections.   Hopefully, they help but we've yet to see fruits of his labor do to this or that.