Stein:whispers getting louder c's could trade smart to move up to high lottery

[Jonny CC]

We have the worst fans in the league. I'm disgusted to call some of you my fellow fans.

I think you're seriously overestimating the fandom of other teams.

Heck, the fact that people care enough to create and post on a forum like this is evidence enough that the Celts have a much, much more engaged fanbase than three quarters of the other teams, at least.

Now that's what I call a "sh!t stirrer". 

[aingeforthree]

We have the worst fans in the league. I'm disgusted to call some of you my fellow fans.

Please come closer so I can kiss your feet.

But in seriousness, unreasonable fans are prevalent among the fanbase of any sports franchise.  Don't let the outspoken few miscolor your perception of a fanbase as a whole.  They're certainly not exclusive to the Celtics, like your post seems to suggest.

I think he might be talking about our willingness to trade Smart away.

I'm not seeing why this is surprising. I said in another thread that Smart is our only true asset. No one is coveting our other "assets," with the exception of picks that are necessary sweeteners with Smart.

Understand even less peoples' dismay with trading Smart, especially for the potential at Okafor. Smart has given us a good indication of who he will become. He will flirt with all NBA-teams his career, and he lacks offensive abilities at this level. He passes well, may be a better shooter than we thought, but will never shoot it well and can't get to the rack like he did in college.

I like Smart a lot. The thought of the trade makes my stomach drop. But Okafor's skill set is as sure as any in this draft - he's Tim Duncan super lite without defense. Bigger picture, he may give us a legitimate opportunity to continue chasing Boogie, and worse case we have a very solid scoring C. People will argue he doesn't fit into Stevens' "system," and I'll ask if that "system" was him employing a common scheme at this level that fit the personnel he was given.

Regardless, I doubt this happens. LAL seems to covet Russell, and they aren't nearly as desperate as we are to chase Boogie. They won't strike out in FA, and FA doesn't exist in Boston.

Only true asset ?  That's discrediting a lot of talent on the current roster, especially guys like IT4 and James Young.  BTW, had Young stayed in school, he's right up there with the Winslow's of the world in this draft.

How do you know who covets who ?

It's not terribly difficult to discern the relative value of players around the league using some deductive reasoning.

Is that the same reasoning you used when you debunked the Garnett to the Celtics rumors back in the day ?

"No way, the Celtics don't have enough to land Garnett.  No real assets to get there"

No, because I didn't debunk any of those rumors, nor am I debunking any rumors here. In fact I actively discourage people from debunking rumors off of knee-jerk reactions. I am much more in favor of taking everything with a grain of salt, as I think my posting history would suggest.

Your post is revisionist history, by the way -- Al Jefferson was definitely considered a "real asset" in 2007, particularly since draft picks were not nearly as valued as they are today. Something which is easily understood, and lends credence to my initial point.

QED. Nice stab at using a straw man, by the way, it's always good to see people trying to expound their intellectual faculties.

Of course you didn't debunk those

[PhoSita]

Why the insistence on not at least entertaining the idea that Smart's ankle could have prohibited his driving ability?

I'm definitely willing to entertain that.  I'm really hoping it's true, actually.  Just don't know how much importance I should place on that.  It's not as if he was aggressively driving a bunch before the ankle injury.  We saw a little bit of it in Summer League, I suppose.

I also think it's fair to point out that Smart made a net positive impact as a rookie guard, which is not easy to do.  He helped his team to a playoff berth, which is more than Tyreke Evans can say.

That fits in with the idea, though, that Smart was an NBA-ready defensive role player.  I think what has disappointed people is that there weren't too many signs of star potential in Smart's rookie season.  Most guys who go on to become stars of some description at least show some flashes of it, even if they're inconsistent or have trouble earning regular playing time.

[D.o.s.]

We have the worst fans in the league. I'm disgusted to call some of you my fellow fans.

Please come closer so I can kiss your feet.

But in seriousness, unreasonable fans are prevalent among the fanbase of any sports franchise.  Don't let the outspoken few miscolor your perception of a fanbase as a whole.  They're certainly not exclusive to the Celtics, like your post seems to suggest.

I think he might be talking about our willingness to trade Smart away.

I'm not seeing why this is surprising. I said in another thread that Smart is our only true asset. No one is coveting our other "assets," with the exception of picks that are necessary sweeteners with Smart.

Understand even less peoples' dismay with trading Smart, especially for the potential at Okafor. Smart has given us a good indication of who he will become. He will flirt with all NBA-teams his career, and he lacks offensive abilities at this level. He passes well, may be a better shooter than we thought, but will never shoot it well and can't get to the rack like he did in college.

I like Smart a lot. The thought of the trade makes my stomach drop. But Okafor's skill set is as sure as any in this draft - he's Tim Duncan super lite without defense. Bigger picture, he may give us a legitimate opportunity to continue chasing Boogie, and worse case we have a very solid scoring C. People will argue he doesn't fit into Stevens' "system," and I'll ask if that "system" was him employing a common scheme at this level that fit the personnel he was given.

Regardless, I doubt this happens. LAL seems to covet Russell, and they aren't nearly as desperate as we are to chase Boogie. They won't strike out in FA, and FA doesn't exist in Boston.

Only true asset ?  That's discrediting a lot of talent on the current roster, especially guys like IT4 and James Young.  BTW, had Young stayed in school, he's right up there with the Winslow's of the world in this draft.

How do you know who covets who ?

It's not terribly difficult to discern the relative value of players around the league using some deductive reasoning.

Is that the same reasoning you used when you debunked the Garnett to the Celtics rumors back in the day ?

"No way, the Celtics don't have enough to land Garnett.  No real assets to get there"

No, because I didn't debunk any of those rumors, nor am I debunking any rumors here. In fact I actively discourage people from debunking rumors off of knee-jerk reactions. I am much more in favor of taking everything with a grain of salt, as I think my posting history would suggest.

Your post is revisionist history, by the way -- Al Jefferson was definitely considered a "real asset" in 2007, particularly since draft picks were not nearly as valued as they are today. Something which is easily understood, and lends credence to my initial point.

QED. Nice stab at using a straw man, by the way, it's always good to see people trying to expound their intellectual faculties.

Of course you didn't debunk those

adorable.

[LarBrd33]

Boston desperately need a franchise prospect ... That's not smart. I like smart though

So we should just hurriedly deal guys who aren't going to be franchise guys but could very well make an All-Star team for a guy that might have the potential to be a franchise guy?

Edit: ... but probably won't ever be, like Smart?

I had smart 8th on my board last year and he ended up worse than I thought he'd be. I like him a lot, but I give him up if we can get a franchise prospect.

You're the only one in the world who thinks any of that. And tell me this, if you had him 8th on your board (ha!) and he ended up 6th in All-Rookie voting, how in the hell did he end worse than you thought he'd be? Ridiculousness.

Heh... If you wouldn't trade smart for embiid or Jabari Parker right now, you're cray.  So spare me his "6th in rookie voting" thing.  I had him 8th on my board.  I sAw him as an NBA ready guy who would average 15, 5 and 5 out of the gate, be a top 4 rookie, but long term others would surpass him.  I was disappointed with his rookie campaign.  Great defensive player though.  I'd move him for someone with star potential.

You're so wrong, it's funny. Yes, he finished 6th in voting. Yes, Embiid and Parker were injured. However, Mirotic and Noel, two players that were not part of the 2014 draft, finished ahead of him!

TP. I've given up. He's never really given me a legit answer.

It's all good Larry Legend. You can like some Celtics now and again.

I like Smart.  I hope we keep him.  I think it's safe to say he'll develop into a Tony Allen type at worse.  Maybe he'll be better.  But if you're asking me if I'd move Tony Allen for the next Steph Curry or LaMarcus Aldridge, my answer is a resounding yes.

And what if you picked up the next Jonny Flynn or Tyrus Thomas?

Not all that keen on moving Smart for a guy his age unless we were to package him with a James Young or Kelly Olynyk for a stud like Jabari.

Look, I get that people here disagree with me, because Smart's our boy.  But he averaged 7 points on 36% shooting and all the pre-draft hype was that the kid was one of the 3 most "NBA ready prospects" in the draft.   All the stat projections I read about Smart suggested he'd be able to average at least 15 points on a depleated roster like Boston.   He lacks explosiveness and speed.  He's not a good shooter.  He's not great with the ball.  He's not much of a distributor.   For a guy who most expected to be a NBA-ready leader, he proved to be an excepitonal defender, a mediocre 3-point shooter... and not much else.   Who knows what he'll develop into, but it's not very encouraging.  And with Thomas on board, it might make sense to move Smart if you're getting a better prospect... preferably a shooting guard with size who can shoot (I'd trade Smart for Russell) or, obviously... an elite big man prospect.

There were guys in the draft last year that were far more raw, but with potentially a higher ceiling (Gordon, Exum, Vonleh).   All I've read about the Celtics was that they tried very hard to trade up to get Embiid... And that Smart vs Randle was a debate they agonized over.  They saw Randle as having more skill.  They liked Smart's attitude in spite of his lack of skill.  They took Smart, because they thought he'd put in a lot of work and because he's a tough guy.   He could get a lot better over time.  But to say I wasn't disappointed in his lack of ability as a supposedly "NBA-Ready" player would be lying.   He was exceptional on one end of the court and the other end was concerning. 

Where the heck are you getting those projections from. O.o

15 points a game? Depleted (we were always deep at the guard rotations)

His NBA readiness had all to do with defense, nothing to do with offense... which he delivered on.

So, I think you might just have had a tad bit of the unrealistic expectations dosage.

I love that people around here like to pretend like I pull my "LarBrdisms" out of my butt.  Like I just fabricate it for drama.   If only I had a time machine, I could point out the people around here who thought Smart was going to be an impact offensive player immediately.

Luckily, Google is helpful in these situations.   Google "Marcus Smart statistic projections", and you'll see several people who said that if Smart got the minutes (which he did after Rondo was traded), he had the capacity to be "the man" from day 1. 

One such article:  http://www.rotowire.com/blog/marcus-smart-2014-rookie-projection/

Not surprisingly, it brings up the Tyreke Evans thing I thought.

Evans and Smart are similar in size, build, and athleticism. Their statistical production in college was also very similar. According to Hickory High Similarity Scores, Evans was the second most similar player to Smart in their database.

It suggests Smart's best-case scenario would him averaging similar stats to Evans in year 1:  20.1 points, 5.8 assists, 5.3 rebounds, 1.5 steals, 46%/26%/75%

Worst-case scenario, it brings up Dion Waiters.  Waiters averaged 15 points, 3 assists, 2.4 rebounds and 1 steal on 41%/31%/75% shooting

This isn't a "LarBrdism"... 

It is a LarBrdism because Tyreke averaged 37 minutes a game for a Kings team that won 25 games and Waiters put up his numbers on a Cavs team that won 24 games.

Going deeper, Waiters as a rookie put up a PER of 13.7, an offensive rating of 99 pts per 100 possession and a defensive rating of 111 pts per 100 possessions.  Tyreke Evans as a rookie put up a PER of 18.2, an offensive rating of 107 pts per 100 possessions and a defensive rating of 110 pts per 100 possessions.

Marcus Smart as a rookie put up a PER of 11 with an offensive rating of 101 points per 100 possessions and a defensive rating of 104 pts per 100 possessions.  Certainly nothing to set the world on fire but a lot more comparable to Evans and Waiters than you're making out.

And I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.  You just choose to ignore it.

Mike

Lots of people here figured he would be Tyreke Evans.  Thread:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=73449.0

SOmeone suggests that he could be a lesser Iman Shumpert... to which Roy HObbs responds, "I'll be pretty disappointed if he ends up a lesser Iman Shumpert"

Shumpert rookie stats:  9.5 points, 2.8 assists, 3.2 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 40%/31%/80% in 28.9mpg

Smart's rookie stats:   7.8 points, 3.1 assists, 3.3 rebounds, 1.5 steals, 36%/33%/64% in 27mpg

So why am I defending myself for saying I was disappointed in Smart's rookie campaign?   I'm just playin by the rules ya'll set.

I like Smart.   His rookie campaign was underwhelming.   If it takes moving him to get an impact star or a player with legit franchise potential, do it.  You don't pass up a potential star big man, because of potentially the next Iman Shumpert.

I've read a couple of your posts on this matter, it's apparent you are simply uneducated about smarts health situation.

About a month ago he was quoted saying that he could barely walk after games due to his ankle never having a chance to properly heal.

He also stated that he didn't want to say anything during the season because he didn't want to sound like he was making excuses.

Its a joke to even post stat projections when you take all of this into considerstion. That's why most of your assessments on the subject come off as noise.

Lol.  Are you the one who keeps blaming Smart's underwhelming rookie campaign on his ankles?  I keep ignoring that, but it's a silly excuse.  Kid wasn't even driving to the hoop in Summer league.  He doesn't have the explosiveness and size to do what he did in College. 

[LooseCannon]

Google suggests to me that a lot of the talk about Smart being "NBA-ready" revolved around him being physically ready to step into the NBA right away without a need to lose/gain weight or put on more muscle.  He needed to improve his shooting, but he wasn't so raw that he needed to be sent to the D-League to learn fundamentals.

In comparing Smart to other guards as rookies, I'd suggest looking at eFG% and TS% numbers in addition to FG%/3P%/FT%.

I also think Smart was asked to focus on defense and play off the ball more.  Another team might have just put the ball in his hands and told him to go out there and play.  He might have scored 12-16 points per game in that scenario.  I'd take Smart's rookie season over MCW's.

[jpotter33]

Google suggests to me that a lot of the talk about Smart being "NBA-ready" revolved around him being physically ready to step into the NBA right away without a need to lose/gain weight or put on more muscle.  He needed to improve his shooting, but he wasn't so raw that he needed to be sent to the D-League to learn fundamentals.

In comparing Smart to other guards as rookies, I'd suggest looking at eFG% and TS% numbers in addition to FG%/3P%/FT%.

I also think Smart was asked to focus on defense and play off the ball more.  Another team might have just put the ball in his hands and told him to go out there and play.  He might have scored 12-16 points per game in that scenario.  I'd take Smart's rookie season over MCW's.

I.E, context matters, which is what many of us have been preaching regarding Smart's rookie year. Put him on Philly where he had the freedom to "get his" more often and his stat line would look much different.

[Ilikesports17]

Take the last 2 drafts:
Id prefer Wiggins Parker Embiid Towns Okafor to Smart. I think Mudiay Winslow and Payton are comparable to Smart and have no idea what to make of the Euros (including Saric). Id take Smart over everyone else and yes that is a very emotional statement.

[LarBrd33]

fwiw, I don't think we are moving Smart.  I think we'll pick someone at #16, maybe trade down from #28 into the 2nd round, and try our luck on free agency.

[Ilikesports17]

Google suggests to me that a lot of the talk about Smart being "NBA-ready" revolved around him being physically ready to step into the NBA right away without a need to lose/gain weight or put on more muscle.  He needed to improve his shooting, but he wasn't so raw that he needed to be sent to the D-League to learn fundamentals.

In comparing Smart to other guards as rookies, I'd suggest looking at eFG% and TS% numbers in addition to FG%/3P%/FT%.

I also think Smart was asked to focus on defense and play off the ball more.  Another team might have just put the ball in his hands and told him to go out there and play.  He might have scored 12-16 points per game in that scenario.  I'd take Smart's rookie season over MCW's.

I.E, context matters, which is what many of us have been preaching regarding Smart's rookie year. Put him on Philly where he had the freedom to "get his" more often and his stat line would look much different.

I also think Smarts numbers dont come close to representing his impact. I mean he made countless big-time plays for us. Hit plenty of big shots at the end of games and you really saw him be a bit more explosive/aggresive at the end of the year (huge dunks against Toronto & posting up against Cle)

[tarheelsxxiii]

fwiw, I don't think we are moving Smart.  I think we'll pick someone at #16, maybe trade down from #28 into the 2nd round, and try our luck on free agency.

This reality is the most depressing part of it all.

[jpotter33]

fwiw, I don't think we are moving Smart.  I think we'll pick someone at #16, maybe trade down from #28 into the 2nd round, and try our luck on free agency.

Unfortunately, I see this happening, too.