Oh, What Could've Been ...

[bdm860]

I wonder....how good would we have been with Duncan?

Guaranteed Playoff spot? Sure..

But no David Robinson to pair with him...probably no Paul Pierce, either I'd guess...

Would our infrastructure, at the time - been good enough to build a great team around him?

Got to wonder how Duncan and Antoine would get along.  I love Toine, but clearly the man had his flaws.  Maybe, just maybe, Pitino would have been able to swing a decent trade to get a young Antoine out of town to find a piece that better compliments Duncan.  Antoine's value was probably never higher than in '98, and Pitino liked to make deals. 

Maybe Antoine fresh off his All-Star sophomore season in '98 for rookie Vince Carter? Antoine for Vince and TMac (maybe if Isaiah was still GM)?  Antoine for rookie Dirk?  Any young stud + pick(s)?

(Edit - of course have to wonder if Antoine is still even an All-Star in '98 playing with Duncan)

Stackhouse, Sprewell, Joe Smith, Damon Stoudamire, Mitch Richmond, Chris Webber, Jim Jackson, Van Exel, Nash, Camby, Laettner, Glen Rice, Eddie Jones, Marbury, Terrell Brandon, etc. were some of the big names/young players traded around that time, obviously some of those would have worked out better than others in Boston.

Pitino probably would have tried to go the over the hill vet route though.  Would have tried for first Pippen (from Houston, not Chicago), after trying to trade #3 and #6 for Pippen in '98.


Every scenario I run through though involves Pitino screwing it up somehow, even if he nails the picks, and a big trade.

[GreenFaith1819]

Bias and Reggie Lewis would've been a DEVASTATING SG-SF combo going into the late 80s - 90s.....



And YES - I think those two would've brought Mike a few tears....

[GreenFaith1819]

I wonder....how good would we have been with Duncan?

Guaranteed Playoff spot? Sure..

But no David Robinson to pair with him...probably no Paul Pierce, either I'd guess...

Would our infrastructure, at the time - been good enough to build a great team around him?

Got to wonder how Duncan and Antoine would get along.  I love Toine, but clearly the man had his flaws.  Maybe, just maybe, Pitino would have been able to swing a decent trade to get a young Antoine out of town to find a piece that better compliments Duncan.  Antoine's value was probably never higher than in '98, and Pitino liked to make deals. 

Maybe Antoine fresh off his All-Star sophomore season in '98 for rookie Vince Carter? Antoine for Vince and TMac (maybe if Isaiah was still GM)?  Antoine for rookie Dirk?  Any young stud + pick(s)?

Stackhouse, Sprewell, Joe Smith, Damon Stoudamire, Mitch Richmond, Chris Webber, Jim Jackson, Van Exel, Nash, Camby, Laettner, Glen Rice, Eddie Jones, Marbury, Terrell Brandon, etc. were some of the big names/young players traded around that time, obviously some of those would have worked out better than others in Boston.

Pitino probably would have tried to go the over the hill vet route though.  Would have tried for first Pippen (from Houston, not Chicago), after trying to trade #3 and #6 for Pippen in '98.


Every scenario I run through though involves Pitino screwing it up somehow, even if he nails the picks, and a big trade.

Loved 'Toine, but I think he would've only benefited from someone like brad Stevens...someone to make him a bit more efficient....

Too bad Brad was still in middle school then I think lol.

[GreenFaith1819]

First bias.. then Lewis... and in the end pitino...

The CRAZY thing is that this could've happened...should've happened...

We got Reggie with the 22th pick of the 87 draft...would've already had Bias in tow.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni7t4swtdYw

Reggie and Lenny would've hounded Michael in the 90s........

[GreenFaith1819]

Am I crazy to think Reggie would've been somewhere between Klay Thompson and Tracy McGrady?

Long, great defensively, can score in bunches....maybe not as prolific a scorer as Klay but close....

I'd guess Reggie was better athletically than Klay but not quite as good athletically as T-Mac...but close to T-Mac..

Reggie had already made an All-Star game in his short career as well.

[Moranis]

Duncan probably would've bounced after his rookie deal.

Coincidentally, this is apparently trending again now, but legend goes Duncan was very close to leaving the Spurs for Orlando to team up with Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady in 2000.

Per Doc (who was head coach of the Magic at the time):

“Tim Duncan looked at me and said, ‘I’m pretty sure I’m coming to the Magic. I just need to go back to San Antonio because I love Pop and want to have my last meeting with Pop’. ”

I 100% believe that conversation goes, "I'm coming to the Magic, I just need to go back to Boston because I love Pitino and want to have my last meeting with Pitino, where do I sign?" if Duncan ended up here with Pitino.

If Duncan was close to leaving a contender that he already won a championship with and who had one of the greatest NBA coaches at the helm, think how easily and quickly he would have left Boston.

San Antonio was not really a contender when he thought about leaving (other than what Duncan made them).  It was after the 00 season when the Spurs were very old and no real great future assets.  Of the top 9, no one was below 31 except Duncan and the rest of the starting 5 were 34, 34, 36, and 32.  Duncan missed the post season and the Spurs got obliterated by the Suns in the 1st round.  So if you are Duncan, you see a very old team that lacked any real great young or future pieces.  In other words, if the Spurs were a contender it was solely because of Duncan, so anywhere Duncan went he would have had that effect.  They ended up signing Derek Anderson as a free agent that summer and he instantly became their 2nd best player and they did make the WCF only to get swept by LA.  Next year lost in 5 to LA.  Not really a contender again until Manu and Parker panned out as a late 1st and 2nd round pick (and Stephen Jackson some how hit after bouncing around league), so a great deal of luck for the Spurs. 

I think in this alternate reality where Boston ends up with Duncan, the C's would have had a much younger team with a much brighter looking future after the 00 season.  Antoine alone would have been a vastly superior player to anyone that you could reasonably project the Spurs to land.  And given how weak the East was during that period, the C's may have already been in the Finals at that point. 

[bdm860]

Duncan probably would've bounced after his rookie deal.

Coincidentally, this is apparently trending again now, but legend goes Duncan was very close to leaving the Spurs for Orlando to team up with Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady in 2000.

Per Doc (who was head coach of the Magic at the time):

“Tim Duncan looked at me and said, ‘I’m pretty sure I’m coming to the Magic. I just need to go back to San Antonio because I love Pop and want to have my last meeting with Pop’. ”

I 100% believe that conversation goes, "I'm coming to the Magic, I just need to go back to Boston because I love Pitino and want to have my last meeting with Pitino, where do I sign?" if Duncan ended up here with Pitino.

If Duncan was close to leaving a contender that he already won a championship with and who had one of the greatest NBA coaches at the helm, think how easily and quickly he would have left Boston.

San Antonio was not really a contender when he thought about leaving (other than what Duncan made them).  It was after the 00 season when the Spurs were very old and no real great future assets.  Of the top 9, no one was below 31 except Duncan and the rest of the starting 5 were 34, 34, 36, and 32.  Duncan missed the post season and the Spurs got obliterated by the Suns in the 1st round.  So if you are Duncan, you see a very old team that lacked any real great young or future pieces.  In other words, if the Spurs were a contender it was solely because of Duncan, so anywhere Duncan went he would have had that effect.  They ended up signing Derek Anderson as a free agent that summer and he instantly became their 2nd best player and they did make the WCF only to get swept by LA.  Next year lost in 5 to LA.  Not really a contender again until Manu and Parker panned out as a late 1st and 2nd round pick (and Stephen Jackson some how hit after bouncing around league), so a great deal of luck for the Spurs. 

I think in this alternate reality where Boston ends up with Duncan, the C's would have had a much younger team with a much brighter looking future after the 00 season.  Antoine alone would have been a vastly superior player to anyone that you could reasonably project the Spurs to land.  And given how weak the East was during that period, the C's may have already been in the Finals at that point.

The team Duncan went back to won 58 games, finishing 1st in the entire league, went to the WCF, and had the 2nd best preseason odds to win a championship (according to what's listed on bball-ref).  That's a contender (though obviously Duncan played a big part of that, and would make most teams a contender).  Though it's not a hard argument to make that San Antonio's window might be closed very soon, they were still a contender at that immediate time (plus had a Center that allowed Duncan to play PF most of the time).

Also I don't know if losing by 2, 7 (in a game that was tied with 90 seconds left), and 11, while winning one by 15, without your best player, in the 4/5 match-up against the team with the same record as you in '00 is really considered obliterated.


But don't forget about trader Pitino.  He signed guys and traded them before they ever played a game (Massenburg, Mills), was quick to trade young guys (Billups after half a season, Mercer after 2, Eric Williams before he ever even coached him), and was quick to trade just about everyone else he either signed or traded for (signed DeClerq, Knight, Chaney and traded them after 1 year, traded for Fortson then traded him after 1 injury hampered season, traded for Roy Rogers and John Thomas, traded after less than half a season).

There's no trades I look back at and say Pitino clearly won that trade, and there's one clearly horrible trade (DeClerq + pick that would be Andre Miller for Potapenko).

Now maybe Pitino made so many trades because the team was bad and he was trying to make them better/find something that worked, but I have my doubts he'd behave differently with Duncan leading the team to the playoffs.

[bdm860]

Also Moranis, since I mentioned him in my last post, would love to hear any thoughts you (or anybody) have on Fortson, if any.  Pretty sure you're a Cincy guy, so may have some stronger opinions than most on him.

I was a big fan, who thought didn't get a fair shake in Boston (IIRC he started off the year injured, and when he came back was in Pitino's dog house because he thought he was out of shape).  I thought Fortson was a beast, who was a hard worker, and every interview I heard from him Pre-Seattle days I thought he seemed like an extremely classy guy.  Then something seemed to switch in him later in his career and he seemed to become an ornery jerk.

Any thoughts on him one way or the other?

[Roy H.]

There's no trades I look back at and say Pitino clearly won that trade,

Knight for Battie?

Mercer for Fortson and a future #1 that we could roll over year to year (and could have been Carmelo)?

Fortson for a future #1, that should have been Tony Parker?

[bdm860]

There's no trades I look back at and say Pitino clearly won that trade,

Knight for Battie?

Mercer for Fortson and a future #1 that we could roll over year to year (and could have been Carmelo)?

Fortson for a future #1, that should have been Tony Parker?

Okay, I'll take that part back.

He was able to win some trades.

And if it was Danny, I'd probably be praising him for getting those picks in the deal, and trading Mercer at his peak, what foresight! 

I'm still bitter about dumping Eric Williams for a couple of 2nds,  trading away the pick that would be Andre Miller (who would have been perfect for the C's!) for Potapenkio, and giving up on Fortson, Billups, Mercer too early.   Too blinded by my hate and bitteness I guess lol.

And Fortson for a late 1st was a loss!!!  Fortson didn't get a fair shake here and was better than most guys normally drafted outside of the lottery.   He averaged a double double after leaving Boston. I will die on this hill!!!! 

[Roy H.]

There's no trades I look back at and say Pitino clearly won that trade,

Knight for Battie?

Mercer for Fortson and a future #1 that we could roll over year to year (and could have been Carmelo)?

Fortson for a future #1, that should have been Tony Parker?

Okay, I'll take that part back.

He was able to win some trades.

And if it was Danny, I'd probably be praising him for getting those picks in the deal, and trading Mercer at his peak, what foresight! 

I'm still bitter about dumping Eric Williams for a couple of 2nds,  trading away the pick that would be Andre Miller (who would have been perfect for the C's!) for Potapenkio, and giving up on Fortson, Billups, Mercer too early.   Too blinded by my hate and bitteness I guess lol.

And Fortson for a late 1st was a loss!!!  Fortson didn't get a fair shake here and was better than most guys normally drafted outside of the lottery.   He averaged a double double after leaving Boston. I will die on this hill!!!! 

Fortson for Forte was a loss for sure.  I blame the organization for throwing Red a bone at that point. Everybody in the world had us either taking Tony Parker or Jamaal Tinsley.

And yeah, the Potapenko trade looked bad at the time and has aged even worse.  Andre Miller was taken with that pick, and Shawn Marion was next off the board.

The conventional wisdom at the time was Joe Johnson, Troy Murphy and Tony Parker. Even ignoring Duncan and McGrady, we should have come out of that draft with a Murphy / Antoine / Pierce / Johnson / Parker team.

[Moranis]

Duncan probably would've bounced after his rookie deal.

Coincidentally, this is apparently trending again now, but legend goes Duncan was very close to leaving the Spurs for Orlando to team up with Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady in 2000.

Per Doc (who was head coach of the Magic at the time):

“Tim Duncan looked at me and said, ‘I’m pretty sure I’m coming to the Magic. I just need to go back to San Antonio because I love Pop and want to have my last meeting with Pop’. ”

I 100% believe that conversation goes, "I'm coming to the Magic, I just need to go back to Boston because I love Pitino and want to have my last meeting with Pitino, where do I sign?" if Duncan ended up here with Pitino.

If Duncan was close to leaving a contender that he already won a championship with and who had one of the greatest NBA coaches at the helm, think how easily and quickly he would have left Boston.

San Antonio was not really a contender when he thought about leaving (other than what Duncan made them).  It was after the 00 season when the Spurs were very old and no real great future assets.  Of the top 9, no one was below 31 except Duncan and the rest of the starting 5 were 34, 34, 36, and 32.  Duncan missed the post season and the Spurs got obliterated by the Suns in the 1st round.  So if you are Duncan, you see a very old team that lacked any real great young or future pieces.  In other words, if the Spurs were a contender it was solely because of Duncan, so anywhere Duncan went he would have had that effect.  They ended up signing Derek Anderson as a free agent that summer and he instantly became their 2nd best player and they did make the WCF only to get swept by LA.  Next year lost in 5 to LA.  Not really a contender again until Manu and Parker panned out as a late 1st and 2nd round pick (and Stephen Jackson some how hit after bouncing around league), so a great deal of luck for the Spurs. 

I think in this alternate reality where Boston ends up with Duncan, the C's would have had a much younger team with a much brighter looking future after the 00 season.  Antoine alone would have been a vastly superior player to anyone that you could reasonably project the Spurs to land.  And given how weak the East was during that period, the C's may have already been in the Finals at that point.

The team Duncan went back to won 58 games, finishing 1st in the entire league, went to the WCF, and had the 2nd best preseason odds to win a championship (according to what's listed on bball-ref).  That's a contender (though obviously Duncan played a big part of that, and would make most teams a contender).  Though it's not a hard argument to make that San Antonio's window might be closed very soon, they were still a contender at that immediate time (plus had a Center that allowed Duncan to play PF most of the time).

Also I don't know if losing by 2, 7 (in a game that was tied with 90 seconds left), and 11, while winning one by 15, without your best player, in the 4/5 match-up against the team with the same record as you in '00 is really considered obliterated.


But don't forget about trader Pitino.  He signed guys and traded them before they ever played a game (Massenburg, Mills), was quick to trade young guys (Billups after half a season, Mercer after 2, Eric Williams before he ever even coached him), and was quick to trade just about everyone else he either signed or traded for (signed DeClerq, Knight, Chaney and traded them after 1 year, traded for Fortson then traded him after 1 injury hampered season, traded for Roy Rogers and John Thomas, traded after less than half a season).

There's no trades I look back at and say Pitino clearly won that trade, and there's one clearly horrible trade (DeClerq + pick that would be Andre Miller for Potapenko).

Now maybe Pitino made so many trades because the team was bad and he was trying to make them better/find something that worked, but I have my doubts he'd behave differently with Duncan leading the team to the playoffs.

That team won 58 games because of Duncan.  I mean take Duncan off that team and they probably don't even make the playoffs.  Derek Anderson, Antonio Daniels, Malik Rose, Samaki Walker, and well past their primes David Robinson, Sean Elliot, Avery Johnson, Danny Ferry, and Terry Porter is not a good team.  No where near a contender.  That team was as good as it was pretty much solely because of Duncan (Pop being an excellent coach doesn't hurt either).  If Manu and Parker hadn't hit, I do wonder how Duncan and Pop would be viewed.  They got that one title, but they weren't going to win any more without hitting the jackpot on those picks.  Even in that 2nd title in Parker's 2nd year (and Manu as a rookie), Parker was already the 2nd best player on that team.

So when I say the Spurs weren't a contender, that is what I mean.  Duncan was so good he would elevate any team, but even that year they got blitzed (with Duncan) when they played the Lakers.  That was a real contender, the Spurs were not.  That team reminds me a lot of the Cavs during Lebron's 1st run.  Lebron, like Duncan, could really elevate an otherwise bad team into something so much more, but without the star the team was just bad. 

[Moranis]

There's no trades I look back at and say Pitino clearly won that trade,

Knight for Battie?

Mercer for Fortson and a future #1 that we could roll over year to year (and could have been Carmelo)?

Fortson for a future #1, that should have been Tony Parker?

Pitino's trades actually weren't that bad.  He made several excellent trades.  His constant need for change brought on by an immense pressure to win really caused his downfall.  I think Pitino the coach or Pitino the GM would have been fine, he just couldn't effectively do both jobs and caused both to suffer as a result (which we've seen time and time again when people try to do both jobs). 

[bdm860]

There's no trades I look back at and say Pitino clearly won that trade,

Knight for Battie?

Mercer for Fortson and a future #1 that we could roll over year to year (and could have been Carmelo)?

Fortson for a future #1, that should have been Tony Parker?

Pitino's trades actually weren't that bad.  He made several excellent trades.  His constant need for change brought on by an immense pressure to win really caused his downfall.  I think Pitino the coach or Pitino the GM would have been fine, he just couldn't effectively do both jobs and caused both to suffer as a result (which we've seen time and time again when people try to do both jobs).

Tell me where we disagree.  I count 6 bad trades (all of which were hasty), 2 good trades, an irrelevant trade, and whatever you want to classify Chaney for Stith as.

August 21, 1997: Traded Eric Williams to the Denver Nuggets for a 1999 2nd round draft pick (Kris Clack was later selected) and a 2001 2nd round draft pick (Earl Watson was later selected).

Bad because he dumped a young rotational player for 2nds (and maybe for cap room to sign Mills?)

October 22, 1997: Traded Chris Mills, a 1998 2nd round draft pick (DeMarco Johnson was later selected) and a 2000 2nd round draft pick (Lavor Postell was later selected) to the New York Knicks for Scott Brooks, Dontae' Jones, Walter McCarty and John Thomas.

Bad because he just signed Mills and Mills was the best player involved

October 28, 1997: Traded Tony Massenburg and a 1999 2nd round draft pick (Obinna Ekezie was later selected) to the Vancouver Grizzlies for Roy Rogers.

Bad because he just signed Massenburg who was better than Rogers

February 18, 1998: Traded Chauncey Billups, Dee Brown, Roy Rogers and John Thomas to the Toronto Raptors for Kenny Anderson, Popeye Jones and Žan Tabak.

Bad because he dumped Billups for a vet whose best days were behind him (moves I think he he may have repeated with Walker and whoever the Pierce pick ended up as, trying to build a contender around Duncan)

January 21, 1999: Traded Travis Knight to the Los Angeles Lakers for Tony Battie.

Good

March 11, 1999: Traded Andrew DeClercq and a 1999 1st round draft pick (Andre Miller was later selected) to the Cleveland Cavaliers for Vitaly Potapenko.

Bad because he gave up a top 10 pick for a marginal upgrade

August 3, 1999: Traded Popeye Jones, Ron Mercer and Dwayne Schintzius to the Denver  Nuggets for Danny Fortson, Eric Washington, Eric Williams and a 2001 1st round draft pick (Kedrick Brown was later selected).

Good

June 28, 2000: Traded a 2001 2nd round draft pick (Earl Watson was later selected) and a 2001 2nd round draft pick (Michael Wright was later selected) to the Seattle SuperSonics for Josip Sesar.

Irrelevant

August 16, 2000: As part of a 4-team trade, the Boston Celtics traded Danny Fortson to the Golden State Warriors; the Boston Celtics traded Dana Barros to the Dallas Mavericks; the Dallas Mavericks traded Robert Pack, Hot Rod Williams and cash to the Boston Celtics; the Dallas Mavericks traded Bruno Šundov to the Utah Jazz; the Golden State Warriors traded Bill Curley to the Dallas Mavericks; the Golden State Warriors traded Donyell Marshall to the Utah Jazz; the Utah Jazz traded a 2001 1st round draft pick (Joseph Forte was later selected) to the Boston Celtics; the Utah Jazz traded Howard Eisley to the Dallas Mavericks; and the Utah Jazz traded Adam Keefe to the Golden State Warriors.

Bad because he tanked Fortson's value and dumped him for a late 1st pick, losing most of the value he got from the Mercer trade

October 16, 2000: Traded Calbert Cheaney and Robert Pack to the Denver Nuggets for Chris Herren and Bryant Stith.

Good I guess, maybe a wash.  Marginal upgrade?  Technically a win because Chaney underperformed in Boston and was injured the next year, and Stith was an expiring (though I don't think cap room was an issue), and slightly better player?  But I view Stith and Chaney as very similar (going by Chaney's later stops in DEN, UTA, and GS).  Honestly don't remember much about either one's time in Boston.

[Moranis]

There's no trades I look back at and say Pitino clearly won that trade,

Knight for Battie?

Mercer for Fortson and a future #1 that we could roll over year to year (and could have been Carmelo)?

Fortson for a future #1, that should have been Tony Parker?

Pitino's trades actually weren't that bad.  He made several excellent trades.  His constant need for change brought on by an immense pressure to win really caused his downfall.  I think Pitino the coach or Pitino the GM would have been fine, he just couldn't effectively do both jobs and caused both to suffer as a result (which we've seen time and time again when people try to do both jobs).

Tell me where we disagree.  I count 6 bad trades (all of which were hasty), 2 good trades, an irrelevant trade, and whatever you want to classify Chaney for Stith as.

August 21, 1997: Traded Eric Williams to the Denver Nuggets for a 1999 2nd round draft pick (Kris Clack was later selected) and a 2001 2nd round draft pick (Earl Watson was later selected).

Bad because he dumped a young rotational player for 2nds (and maybe for cap room to sign Mills?)

He definitely dumped Williams to sign Mills.  Given Mills was better than Williams, I think that is a good trade.

October 22, 1997: Traded Chris Mills, a 1998 2nd round draft pick (DeMarco Johnson was later selected) and a 2000 2nd round draft pick (Lavor Postell was later selected) to the New York Knicks for Scott Brooks, Dontae' Jones, Walter McCarty and John Thomas.

Bad because he just signed Mills and Mills was the best player involved

Agreed, however Mills apparently hated playing in Pitino's system in the preseason and had basically asked to be traded.  It was a poor return even knowing how Mills and McCarty turned out.  That said, Mills had a terrible contract and he definitely wasn't worth it especially seeing how he turned out.

October 28, 1997: Traded Tony Massenburg and a 1999 2nd round draft pick (Obinna Ekezie was later selected) to the Vancouver Grizzlies for Roy Rogers.

Bad because he just signed Massenburg who was better than Rogers

agreed, though on some level getting out from Massenburg's contract wasn't the end of the world either.

February 18, 1998: Traded Chauncey Billups, Dee Brown, Roy Rogers and John Thomas to the Toronto Raptors for Kenny Anderson, Popeye Jones and Žan Tabak.

Bad because he dumped Billups for a vet whose best days were behind him (moves I think he he may have repeated with Walker and whoever the Pierce pick ended up as, trying to build a contender around Duncan)

disagree.  Kenny Anderson was 27 at the time of the trade and was Boston's starting PG for 4.5 seasons including the ECF run.  He was by far the best player in that trade at the time it happened. Billups bounced around the league a long time before looking decent in year 2 in Minnesota and before eventually becoming the all star in Detroit.  Sure in retrospect Billups ended up better, but that took a long time to happen.

January 21, 1999: Traded Travis Knight to the Los Angeles Lakers for Tony Battie.

Good

agreed

March 11, 1999: Traded Andrew DeClercq and a 1999 1st round draft pick (Andre Miller was later selected) to the Cleveland Cavaliers for Vitaly Potapenko.

Bad because he gave up a top 10 pick for a marginal upgrade

Potapenko was more than a marginal upgrade, but not worth what became a top 10 pick.   That said at the time of the trade Boston was 7-10 and it was early in the lockout shortened season.  Had Boston made the playoffs (which was obviously the intent) I think that trade looks a bit better.  Bad trade because Boston didn't make the playoffs though.

August 3, 1999: Traded Popeye Jones, Ron Mercer and Dwayne Schintzius to the Denver  Nuggets for Danny Fortson, Eric Washington, Eric Williams and a 2001 1st round draft pick (Kedrick Brown was later selected).

Good

this was an excellent trade

June 28, 2000: Traded a 2001 2nd round draft pick (Earl Watson was later selected) and a 2001 2nd round draft pick (Michael Wright was later selected) to the Seattle SuperSonics for Josip Sesar.

Irrelevant

agreed

August 16, 2000: As part of a 4-team trade, the Boston Celtics traded Danny Fortson to the Golden State Warriors; the Boston Celtics traded Dana Barros to the Dallas Mavericks; the Dallas Mavericks traded Robert Pack, Hot Rod Williams and cash to the Boston Celtics; the Dallas Mavericks traded Bruno Šundov to the Utah Jazz; the Golden State Warriors traded Bill Curley to the Dallas Mavericks; the Golden State Warriors traded Donyell Marshall to the Utah Jazz; the Utah Jazz traded a 2001 1st round draft pick (Joseph Forte was later selected) to the Boston Celtics; the Utah Jazz traded Howard Eisley to the Dallas Mavericks; and the Utah Jazz traded Adam Keefe to the Golden State Warriors.

Bad because he tanked Fortson's value and dumped him for a late 1st pick, losing most of the value he got from the Mercer trade

disagree. Fortson's value was tanked because he couldn't stay healthy and was out of shape.  His career bore this out.  I think Pack, Hot Rod Williams, and a 1st (plus cash, but that doesn't matter for this discussion) for Fortson and Barros was a fine trade.  Not great, but not bad either. 

October 16, 2000: Traded Calbert Cheaney and Robert Pack to the Denver Nuggets for Chris Herren and Bryant Stith.

Good I guess, maybe a wash.  Marginal upgrade?  Technically a win because Chaney underperformed in Boston and was injured the next year, and Stith was an expiring (though I don't think cap room was an issue), and slightly better player?  But I view Stith and Chaney as very similar (going by Chaney's later stops in DEN, UTA, and GS).  Honestly don't remember much about either one's time in Boston.

Marginal upgrade is probably correct here. Stith did start 74 of his 78 games and played 32 mpg