Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Big333223]

Even for Joe, two straight games of poor end-game decision-making is impressive.

Not sure what was worse - the awful end-game plays in regulation or the lack of adjustment with KP getting killed all fourth and OT on the mismatches.

Lots of blame to go around, but another masterpiece from Joe.

Joe specifically said afterwards that they were experimenting with 1-5 switches. Probably because that's what killed us in the 22 Finals? Obviously he went away from it after Murray burned KP three times in a row.

Deciding to experiment in OT in a game in which you've played your starters 40+ minutes is weird, no?

Even with the loss, the Celtics have a 6 game lead on the #2 team in the NBA. Now is absolutely the time to experiment.

The Celtics are 9-2 in their last 11 games and 20-4 in their last 24 games. The irrational hatred for Mazzulla is an ugly look.

[Roy H.]

Even for Joe, two straight games of poor end-game decision-making is impressive.

Not sure what was worse - the awful end-game plays in regulation or the lack of adjustment with KP getting killed all fourth and OT on the mismatches.

Lots of blame to go around, but another masterpiece from Joe.

Joe specifically said afterwards that they were experimenting with 1-5 switches. Probably because that's what killed us in the 22 Finals? Obviously he went away from it after Murray burned KP three times in a row.

Deciding to experiment in OT in a game in which you've played your starters 40+ minutes is weird, no?

Even with the loss, the Celtics have a 6 game lead on the #2 team in the NBA. Now is absolutely the time to experiment.

The Celtics are 9-2 in their last 11 games and 20-4 in their last 24 games. The irrational hatred for Mazzulla is an ugly look.

Or you could go into the playoffs in a good rhythm, refining the things that have gotten the team to the best record.

[ozgod]

Even for Joe, two straight games of poor end-game decision-making is impressive.

Not sure what was worse - the awful end-game plays in regulation or the lack of adjustment with KP getting killed all fourth and OT on the mismatches.

Lots of blame to go around, but another masterpiece from Joe.

Joe specifically said afterwards that they were experimenting with 1-5 switches. Probably because that's what killed us in the 22 Finals? Obviously he went away from it after Murray burned KP three times in a row.

Deciding to experiment in OT in a game in which you've played your starters 40+ minutes is weird, no?

Definitely unconventional, but there's relatively little downside to experimentation when they destroyed everyone this regular season. They locked up the #1 seed. The results don't matter anymore. The regular season results are in- he was an awesome coach this year.

I do agree that we need to watch the playoffs this year to see how good of a coach he is. He's at least average, and has a chance to be better than that given more playoff success.

I was impressed with their comeback against Philly last year, but was bummed out that they lost to Miami.

I don't think it's so much experimenting for the sake of experimenting as Joe wanting his team to experience certain things that will happen in the playoffs. Like a guard getting switched on to KP, that's definitely going to happen, so I feel like he wants KP to keep experiencing that so they can work out when to call for help, or how quickly to call for help, or if they have a two big lineup have someone on the baseline in the Timelord free safety role. They probably wanted to see how KP would handle it and if he could. The problem is we're watching the game as fans, some of us a few sheets to the wind, and we're in the moment, and we want to win, and we see KP getting roasted over and over again and costing us the win and why the eff isn't Joe doing anything about it? Fire him! If you're already negatively disposed towards Joe then it's just another nail in his coffin, if not you're still wondering why he's sitting on his hands not doing anything.

When I've been watching these last few games, I've tried to keep that in mind whenever I see things that don't seem to make sense - not that Joe and the team don't want to win, I'm sure every single one of them wanted to win, and it's always better to be successful at the things you're testing than not...but I think he is more interested in seeing how the players respond to certain situations and scenarios. I'm sure we will see more of it - like not calling timeouts to give them the chance to keep experiencing another team putting up a run against them, or switching every screen even if it means mismatches happen. Force the players out of their comfort zone. Right now their comfort zone is blowing teams out, shooting 50% from 3 and leading by 20+.

In a way he probably wasn't that dissatisfied with the 2 point loss the other day where the Hawks came back, because he probably saw it as a teaching opportunity on what can happen when you let go of the rope, like they did against Cleveland. Do it twice, and you get the same result twice. Again, sucks for us as viewers following on the game thread. Same as last night, where it was a tight game throughout, 40 lead changes, and we lost in OT. We've not been challenged like that that often this season as we've blown teams out and I feel like that's a big weakness of the team - other teams may be battle hardened more than us because they've had to fight hard for every win while we've blown teams out.

So in a way Joe's fortunate because he has these so-called meaningless games to be able to do this stuff - but the risk is that no game is truly meaningless, the result might be but momentum and process are important. The last thing they want is to get themselves out of rhythm and not be able to get back in and end up limping into the playoffs.

Then again I could be totally wrong, there is no 4D chess being played, no master plan underpinning it all, and Joe is just incompetent 

[celticinorlando]

"I think they're 4-11 when they've trailed in the final minute by one possession, and that just shows me that they get a little tight... it's something they gotta get better at"

@ChrisForsberg_  reacts to the Celtics' 'concerning' struggles late in close games 👀

[Roy H.]

Then again I could be totally wrong, there is no 4D chess being played, no master plan underpinning it all, and Joe is just incompetent

Last year's playoffs are a data point cutting against the 4D chess argument, haha.

[Yuckabuck33]

Mazzulla said the #Celtics purposely went to switching where Porzingis guarded Murray in OT. He yielded three consecutive Murray jumpers. "It was good reps for us. We went to that on purpose. It was an opportunity to practice stuff that we're gonna need to get to.

Just fire him now.

KP held Murray to 4 of 10. It seemed worse because of the 3 in a row in the 4th quarter. I guess the question comes down to if you agree with a coach experimenting in a game at the end of a season (as opposed to the beginning when all coaches experiment).

[green_bballers13]

Even for Joe, two straight games of poor end-game decision-making is impressive.

Not sure what was worse - the awful end-game plays in regulation or the lack of adjustment with KP getting killed all fourth and OT on the mismatches.

Lots of blame to go around, but another masterpiece from Joe.

Joe specifically said afterwards that they were experimenting with 1-5 switches. Probably because that's what killed us in the 22 Finals? Obviously he went away from it after Murray burned KP three times in a row.

Deciding to experiment in OT in a game in which you've played your starters 40+ minutes is weird, no?

Even with the loss, the Celtics have a 6 game lead on the #2 team in the NBA. Now is absolutely the time to experiment.

The Celtics are 9-2 in their last 11 games and 20-4 in their last 24 games. The irrational hatred for Mazzulla is an ugly look.

Or you could go into the playoffs in a good rhythm, refining the things that have gotten the team to the best record.

Or you could show that team that there are still challenges left. Winning the last 30 games doesn't matter that much if there are still ways that other teams can attack them in the playoffs.

I actually think the 18-0 Patriots may have been better served to have been 17-1 going into that Super Bowl with the Giants.

But hey, these are all opinions. No one has the right answer. That's why we can debate about things that we don't really know about with little recourse. Joe can't pick his nose without 13 different people critiquing how he did it.

[Indocelts]

"I think they're 4-11 when they've trailed in the final minute by one possession, and that just shows me that they get a little tight... it's something they gotta get better at"

@ChrisForsberg_  reacts to the Celtics' 'concerning' struggles late in close games 👀

And what coincidence that Tatum has missed 7-8 last shots this season.

Maybe Joe purposely  wants to restore  Tatum's confidence by letting him take last shot after last shot so eventually he will make it, at  the expense of the game. Sort of a practice session.

Or he just does it to return the favor as Tatum was his big supporter as a HC last year.

[Surferdad]

"I think they're 4-11 when they've trailed in the final minute by one possession, and that just shows me that they get a little tight... it's something they gotta get better at"

@ChrisForsberg_  reacts to the Celtics' 'concerning' struggles late in close games 👀

And what coincidence that Tatum has missed 7-8 last shots this season.

Maybe Joe purposely  wants to restore  Tatum's confidence by letting him take last shot after last shot so eventually he will make it, at  the expense of the game. Sort of a practice session.

Or he just does it to return the favor as Tatum was his big supporter as a HC last year.

Yup, that's what I heard Joe say after the last game.

[ozgod]

"I think they're 4-11 when they've trailed in the final minute by one possession, and that just shows me that they get a little tight... it's something they gotta get better at"

@ChrisForsberg_  reacts to the Celtics' 'concerning' struggles late in close games 👀

And what coincidence that Tatum has missed 7-8 last shots this season.

Maybe Joe purposely  wants to restore  Tatum's confidence by letting him take last shot after last shot so eventually he will make it, at  the expense of the game. Sort of a practice session.

Or he just does it to return the favor as Tatum was his big supporter as a HC last year.

Yup, that's what I heard Joe say after the last game.

Joe clearly sees that as the cost of learning, because you don't often have situations where you have to take a last second shot to win. You can't replicate that experience and level of pressure in practice. Clearly he wants Tatum to learn to take better options end of game without being told, so it becomes instinctual, and if he picks a bad one it's the cost of learning. And he's in a situation where even if he does lose these games, they "don't matter", at least in terms of playoff seeding.

The problem is, for us fans there are no meaningless games, we want to win every single one of them and we want perfect execution every time, which Tatum hasn't really given us. Even if the games don't count in terms of seeding or anything else, we fans live in the moment, we're in the game thread and we want them to win, [dang it]...as Kernewek said, for fans the equation is very simple - if the ball goes in the hoop we are happy, if it doesn't we are sad 

[moiso]

"I think they're 4-11 when they've trailed in the final minute by one possession, and that just shows me that they get a little tight... it's something they gotta get better at"

@ChrisForsberg_  reacts to the Celtics' 'concerning' struggles late in close games 👀

And what coincidence that Tatum has missed 7-8 last shots this season.

Maybe Joe purposely  wants to restore  Tatum's confidence by letting him take last shot after last shot so eventually he will make it, at  the expense of the game. Sort of a practice session.

Or he just does it to return the favor as Tatum was his big supporter as a HC last year.

Yup, that's what I heard Joe say after the last game.

Maybe Joe should try to restore Tatum's confidence by calling an actual play to get Tatum a clean look.  Joe takes all the pressure off himself by acting like it's all Tatum's responsiblitly to create a decent shot.  Tatum routinely settles for ridiculous shot attempts in these situations and Mazzulla keeps acting like Tatum is some kind of closer/playmaker, which so far he definitely is not.

[libermaniac]

"I think they're 4-11 when they've trailed in the final minute by one possession, and that just shows me that they get a little tight... it's something they gotta get better at"

@ChrisForsberg_  reacts to the Celtics' 'concerning' struggles late in close games 👀

Or could it be randomness? Think about it, on average if you are down to a team in the final minute, then, for that game at least it’s a pretty even match. Then, given that you are down, on average, you’d expect to win less than half. So perhaps on average you’d be 6-9. More people should read this book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Drunkard%27s_Walk

I’m not saying they play perfectly in close games, but I do know we all expect them to be perfect.

[ozgod]

The win against the Pelicans has Joe clinging to his job by his fingernails...surely he will be given his marching orders after our next loss, so we can get the coach we deserve. Stan Van Gundy is available isn't he? Maybe he and his brother can do a co-coach thing with us 

[cman88]

thats my only concern with the celtics. when things get close they tend to lose who they are and get tight. tatum iso, brown iso. they do it when up big too.

why not keep with the offense that brought you the big lead? why does it go down the toilet?

everything else, rebounding, defense people worried about after atlanta can see vs pelicans they just seemd to be getting end of season "lack of effort"

[ozgod]

thats my only concern with the celtics. when things get close they tend to lose who they are and get tight. tatum iso, brown iso. they do it when up big too.

why not keep with the offense that brought you the big lead? why does it go down the toilet?

everything else, rebounding, defense people worried about after atlanta can see vs pelicans they just seemd to be getting end of season "lack of effort"

And this is what I'm worried about too, because this team hasn't had that many really close games. I looked at our game logs on Basketball-Reference.com and grouped or win/loss margins into different categories:



We've had 12 games that have come down to one possession and we actually have a losing record, 5-7. The biggest category are games where we won by a margin of 4-10 points with 21, followed by Gino Time games where we won by 20 or more, where we had 17. Then we had 15 wins of between 11-20 points.

So by and large, despite this thread up to 128 pages now, those of us who participate in the Game Threads haven't actually had that many heart attack games to deal with this year...they haven't really been the Cardiac Celtics of old. Nearly a quarter of the games have been Gino Time wins. But the games that have been nailbiters we've not had a winning record. Here are those games, along with the dates and whether they were at home or away:



So though it sucks for those of us following along on game threads, I can see why Joe keeps saying he's ok with close games, whether it's because the other team played really well or we sucked, because I suspect the fact that this team hasn't been put under pressure all that often this regular season, that it's largely swept all before it, is a source of concern to him. He keeps talking about wanting our team to be put under pressure to see how it responds. Can they figure things out without him having to constantly micromanage things for them? Can they - especially the Jays who will usually be making the last shot - make the right reads under that pressure? On the occasions that we have been put under pressure where the games have been decided by one possession, we haven't exactly excelled.

Now I could be being unfair to them since we did win 21 games of 4-10 points...I could always change the formula to make it "games won or lost by less than 4 points" but I wanted to keep it to one possession or less. But I do think it's our possible Achilles heel - I don't think this team has been tested enough in those crunch time minutes when every action matters.

(BTW if anyone wants me to change my formula to look at those win/loss margins in more detail, maybe split out 4-6 pts and 7-10 pts I can do that.)