Author Topic: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer  (Read 39586 times)

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Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #225 on: July 29, 2015, 04:53:53 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I've made a point of saying the same things, though I'll concede that perhaps it gets lost in longer posts that I have a tendency of making.

In general, I tend towards verbosity that is unnecessary.

I agree that this can make my posts seem more aggressive than they are intended to be.  I have a way of making agreement seem like argument.

I don't think exaggeration is quite right, but sometimes these arguments can go on for longer than makes any sense.  I do think some people are determined not to agree with me, no matter how hard I try to state things with equanimity.

One of the things I miss about being paid by the word is how much more thought goes into making sure everything is elaborated upon appropriately.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #226 on: July 29, 2015, 04:54:00 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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At no point did I feel like the games were winnable. 

Apparently, many people did, so at this point trying to have a reasoned argument about it is rather like discussing our feelings on whether God exists.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #227 on: July 29, 2015, 04:54:38 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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One of the things I miss about being paid by the word is how much more thought goes into making sure everything is elaborated upon appropriately.

See, my job entails precision of language and being more effective with fewer words.  So yeah, I've got a ways to go.  :)

The "close" semantics battle can't be any worse than the whole ".500 winning percentage" nonsense from last week.   :P

We gave it our best shot, though.   ;)
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #228 on: July 29, 2015, 04:57:43 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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At no point did I feel like the games were winnable. 

Apparently, many people did, so at this point trying to have a reasoned argument about it is rather like discussing our feelings on whether God exists.
I agree.   I imagine there is at least some correlation between those who felt those games were winnable... and those who think it's plausible that a below .500 team could sneak into the playoffs and shock their way to a championship.   You can't really argue against it.  Some people believe in miracles.

2012 Philly 76ers are the best-case scenario for that.   They didnt' make the playoffs the next year.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #229 on: July 29, 2015, 04:59:21 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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At no point did I feel like the games were winnable. 

Apparently, many people did, so at this point trying to have a reasoned argument about it is rather like discussing our feelings on whether God exists.
I agree.   I imagine there is at least some correlation between those who felt those games were winnable... and those who think it's plausible that a below .500 team could sneak into the playoffs and shock their way to a championship.   You can't really argue against it.  Some people believe in miracles.

I want to try to avoid putting words in people's mouths or feelings in their hearts, but the sense I get is that people feel that suggesting the games weren't close is part and parcel with saying the team shouldn't have made the playoffs and that the guys on the team are not very good.

The battle lines are drawn pretty similarly on all three of those debates.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #230 on: July 29, 2015, 05:03:34 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Good to see that Danny pegged a guy he liked (Winslow) and was willing to trade the farm for him.

That's really a good point.

As disappointed as I was that it didn't work, and as bemused as I am by the way the rest of the off-season has unfolded, I was glad to hear that Ainge was willing to make a large offer for a player he felt could be a difference maker.  That's a big risk, but one worth taking.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #231 on: July 29, 2015, 05:05:55 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I would just like to point out that by your definition, teams that lose are hardly ever "close".  Even in the playoffs, the number of games that end with one team being ahead by at least three points for the last two minutes and the other team never having to make a "game winning play" is likely VERY high.

By this standard, for example, there were only two close games in the Finals.

Mike

Ahead by at least four points.  Important difference, since four point plays almost never happen.

In any case, yes, I agree.  Many, many playoff games are not particularly close.

I think what gets people riled up about that is they feel calling a game "not close" is the same as saying it was a blowout.  I'm saying nothing of the sort.

But to my mind, a playoff series being "close" requires that both teams win at least one game.  Failing that, I'd expect to see the team that got swept actually threaten to win one of the games at the end of the fourth.

If the game is decided before we even get to crunch time, it's not a close game.  If you have a seven game series in which every game is decided by single digits, you could call that a close series even if none of the games meets my definition of "close."  But when it's a sweep, I think that leaves little doubt.
I don't really see the point in debating about whether Zach Lowe is right in his suggestion that we "got demolished by a Cavs team in chill mode".   I saw the same thing as it was happening.  At no point did I feel like the games were winnable.  Any time there was any doubt, the Cavs would flip a switch and turn it into a multi-possession lead.   They kept a buffer for most of the games that was insurmountable.  If it makes people feel better to believe we had a chance, so be it.  We'll see how the team plays this year.  Hopefully they can improve.  As-is, I could see them winning a max of 45 games, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them win less than 40.  We aren't going contend without pulling off a significant move or two.  It's nice to hear that Danny is willing to swing for the fences by packing lots of middling assets for a potential game-changer.  That's obviously the kind of mentality we'll need to have any hope of becoming a relevant team again.  Good to see that Danny pegged a guy he liked (Winslow) and was willing to trade the farm for him.

While I knew that we were never going to get more than a 5 game series, I was pleasantly surprised in the first two games to see us have double digit leads over the Cavs, as opposed to it being the other way around.  We attacked, they fought back and took the lead, we came back and could have won both of those games, imo.  Only being down 5 points with 2-3 minutes to go, on the road, against the team favored to at least make it out of the eastern conference, was nice to see.  At least we didn't quit, and we kept scrapping until the end.  I still think that making the playoffs was a waste of time, though, and we would have been better served to have gotten Winslow, and Vonleh (via trade, perhaps), etc., for next year.  At that point, you can start trying to make the playoffs, imo, but to do so without first getting the talent does more harm than good.  The only way the situation could have produced anything that might have been able to entice a team like Charlotte to trade the 9th pick, imo, was if Sully and/or KO (who looked great in the first half of game one, and then he started thinking again, not to mention the fact that his defense was so poor that he couldn't even stay out there.  Ugh.) had the postseason of their lives, driving their value up in the process, and enabling us to get something/someone good for them, but it was a sim hope, at best.  Sigh.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #232 on: July 29, 2015, 05:06:42 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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At no point did I feel like the games were winnable. 

Apparently, many people did, so at this point trying to have a reasoned argument about it is rather like discussing our feelings on whether God exists.
I agree.   I imagine there is at least some correlation between those who felt those games were winnable... and those who think it's plausible that a below .500 team could sneak into the playoffs and shock their way to a championship.   You can't really argue against it.  Some people believe in miracles.

I want to try to avoid putting words in people's mouths or feelings in their hearts, but the sense I get is that people feel that suggesting the games weren't close is part and parcel with saying the team shouldn't have made the playoffs and that the guys on the team are not very good.

The battle lines are drawn pretty similarly on all three of those debates.

This is why I linked to the thread I created in March (weeks before the end of the season).

It was obvious we didn't have the talent to compete with the Cavs.   We were predictably swept in a series that several basketball experts admit the Cavs sleepwalked through.  Jokes about Amir aside, it seems that the playoff push had no tangible impact on our ability to acquire free agents.

Despite this, I was on board with the playoff push and I still think it was the best move. 

I'm not going to pretend like we had a chance in that series, though.  We clearly didn't.   I'm not going to pretend like there isn't an incredible gap between the value of pick #16 and pick #9, we have proof that there is.     But still... I'm ok with the team playing hard for Brad.  It was more about defining culture and giving Brad some momentum.  Hopefully it carries over into next season. 

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #233 on: July 29, 2015, 05:12:58 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I just want to reiterate that saying it wasn't a close series is not suggesting that the Celts didn't try hard, or that they should be embarrassed by how they performed.

They gave it their all.  Brad Stevens got the very most he could out of a team that resembled the cast of characters from the Island of Misfit Toys.

Sadly, it was the Aztecs vs Cortez.

If I make a big deal about underlining that point, it's because I think it'd be folly to expect to go into the playoffs with spears again and expect a different result against the muskets and armored horsemen.

While I agree, I do think that the 'accuracy' of a musket is the perfect metaphor for Lebron's jumper in the postseason ;D.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #234 on: July 29, 2015, 05:14:02 PM »

Offline footey

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Good to see that Danny pegged a guy he liked (Winslow) and was willing to trade the farm for him.

That's really a good point.

As disappointed as I was that it didn't work, and as bemused as I am by the way the rest of the off-season has unfolded, I was glad to hear that Ainge was willing to make a large offer for a player he felt could be a difference maker.  That's a big risk, but one worth taking.

Was it ever disclosed that it was Winslow the Celtics targeted?  And not, for example, Myles Turner?  I know that was everyone's assumption, but never recall reading the Celtics mention this. 

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #235 on: July 29, 2015, 05:17:25 PM »

Offline Emmette Bryant

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I think we can all agree that making the playoffs hurt us in the long run.


Dude.  Speak for yourself.  I don't agree with this at all.

Why don't you agree? What is the benefit of getting swept in the playoffs? If Sullinger and Olynk were the one's contributing to our success, then I would agree, but they aren't. It was role players like Jerebko, turner, and sixth man Thomas that led us.

Well I guess we could tank and get a high draft pick every year like Charlotte or Sacramento.  Last time I checked, though, those teams weren't getting to the playoffs.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #236 on: July 29, 2015, 05:18:31 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I watched those games and noted many times the cavs looked bored.  We were never at risk of beating them.  They flipped a switch whenever they wanted.  They were in control.  That serious was basically a tune-up for them.

This is the highlight of Zach lowes comments: 

Quote
The talent gap between no. 9 and no. 15 is real; ask Boston how it felt to squeeze into the playoffs, get demolished by a Cavs team in chill mode, and watch Justise Winslow fall right where it could have picked had it won three fewer games.

Best basketball writer out there these days. He gets it.

Echoes what I wrote in March when we were basically tied for the 9th worst record:  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=77156.0

In it I sum up two camps:

Quote
Some would argue that there's not a ton of difference between #9 and #15.

Others will argue that #15 + #26 wouldn't get you a Top 10 pick in this draft... and that having the #9 pick, based on the draft tiers, would be far more valuable than having the #15... so much so that it outweighs a pointless playoff exercise. 

Guess we found out which side was right.

You're mixing up a couple of things here.  Honestly, I'm not too concerned that Charlotte wouldn't trade us the ninth pick for what Danny was offering.

Whether or not, we would have been better off with Justise Winslow than the slew of draft picks Danny reportedly offered is far from determined.

Mind you, most people seem to think that Charlotte were the ones who were foolish for not accepting the offer. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #237 on: July 29, 2015, 05:20:47 PM »

Offline Beat LA

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I think we can all agree that making the playoffs hurt us in the long run.


Dude.  Speak for yourself.  I don't agree with this at all.

Why don't you agree? What is the benefit of getting swept in the playoffs? If Sullinger and Olynk were the one's contributing to our success, then I would agree, but they aren't. It was role players like Jerebko, turner, and sixth man Thomas that led us.

Well I guess we could tank and get a high draft pick every year like Charlotte or Sacramento.  Last time I checked, though, those teams weren't getting to the playoffs.

Yeah, but Sacramento plays out west, for one thing, and at least they have Demarcus Cousins to show for their trouble.

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #238 on: July 29, 2015, 05:21:36 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Good to see that Danny pegged a guy he liked (Winslow) and was willing to trade the farm for him.

That's really a good point.

As disappointed as I was that it didn't work, and as bemused as I am by the way the rest of the off-season has unfolded, I was glad to hear that Ainge was willing to make a large offer for a player he felt could be a difference maker.  That's a big risk, but one worth taking.

Was it ever disclosed that it was Winslow the Celtics targeted?  And not, for example, Myles Turner?  I know that was everyone's assumption, but never recall reading the Celtics mention this.

The Celtics have never talked about it in such specific terms.  I don't know if they're allowed to do so.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Lowe - Excerpt from Hornets article on Celtics' draft day offer
« Reply #239 on: July 29, 2015, 05:25:10 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I think we can all agree that making the playoffs hurt us in the long run.

Then again, I'm not sure what more we could have done to avoid it. When people talk about how much making the playoffs hurt us they seem to be implying that the organization made a conscious choice that ended up badly, but our front office did just about everything short of dumping actual players with actual trade value for nothing in order to get a lottery pick. We were just better than expected, that's all.

Also, it was the most fun I've had watching the Celtics in ages, so there's that.

Nope.
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson