Author Topic: We should draft with the future in mind  (Read 14715 times)

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Re: We should draft with the future in mind
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2008, 07:28:04 PM »

Offline scndtony

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We need a shooting guard either through the draft or via free agency.  Need to cut back on Ray Allen's minutes next year to keep him fresher and more productive.  Do not know who will be available in the draft or FA, but I think this is our number one priority. 

Re: We should draft with the future in mind
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2008, 07:38:31 PM »

Offline 2008champs

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We need a shooting guard either through the draft or via free agency.  Need to cut back on Ray Allen's minutes next year to keep him fresher and more productive.  Do not know who will be available in the draft or FA, but I think this is our number one priority. 

I prefer a long and athletic SF who can shoot, slash, and defend.  I wouldn't mind getting Shawn Marion, but he'd be an overpriced 6th man.

Re: We should draft with the future in mind
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2008, 09:19:28 PM »

Offline Chris

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We need a shooting guard either through the draft or via free agency.  Need to cut back on Ray Allen's minutes next year to keep him fresher and more productive.  Do not know who will be available in the draft or FA, but I think this is our number one priority. 

I prefer a long and athletic SF who can shoot, slash, and defend.  I wouldn't mind getting Shawn Marion, but he'd be an overpriced 6th man.

Ummm yeah, I don't think we are getting Marion (who BTW would not be a 6th man, he would start over Allen or Perkins).

As far as the SG vs. SF debate though, I think either would help, but ideally you would be able to find a legit 2/3 guy, rather than a 3/4 guy (providing Posey returns).  We really need to find another guy who can guard the SG position, and still give something offensively, but it wouldn't hurt if they are long enough to check SF's as well.

This is why Rush, Walker, and CDR should be the top targets in the draft.

Re: We should draft with the future in mind
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2008, 09:45:14 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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We need a shooting guard either through the draft or via free agency.  Need to cut back on Ray Allen's minutes next year to keep him fresher and more productive.  Do not know who will be available in the draft or FA, but I think this is our number one priority. 

I prefer a long and athletic SF who can shoot, slash, and defend.  I wouldn't mind getting Shawn Marion, but he'd be an overpriced 6th man.

Ummm yeah, I don't think we are getting Marion (who BTW would not be a 6th man, he would start over Allen or Perkins).

As far as the SG vs. SF debate though, I think either would help, but ideally you would be able to find a legit 2/3 guy, rather than a 3/4 guy (providing Posey returns).  We really need to find another guy who can guard the SG position, and still give something offensively, but it wouldn't hurt if they are long enough to check SF's as well.

This is why Rush, Walker, and CDR should be the top targets in the draft.

Sorry. Marion would not start over Perkins.

That's like saying if we signed Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Deron Williams, Kobe, and Michael Redd they would start. You can't play without a center. KG is no center. Be serious.

Re: We should draft with the future in mind
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2008, 09:57:22 PM »

Offline soap07

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Sorry. Marion would not start over Perkins.

That's like saying if we signed Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Deron Williams, Kobe, and Michael Redd they would start. You can't play without a center. KG is no center. Be serious.


If Marion got signed, he would absolutely start over Perkins. This is nonsense. You would bench Marion, who is literally  better at every single thing on the court than Perkins, in favor of Kendrick Perkins? The combination of Marion and KG in the frontcourt would be loads better than the combination of Perkins and KG.

For the record, if Paul, Parker or Williams were signed, they would start. Rondo would go to the bench.

Re: We should draft with the future in mind
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2008, 10:35:26 PM »

Offline OriginalODb

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no offense but whats the point of even bothering to argue about whether or not Marion would start. There is no way in hell he is on this team unless we get rid of one of the boston three party.

Besides that the guy didn't want to play with Steve Nash anymore why would we want him on this team

Re: We should draft with the future in mind
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2008, 10:39:10 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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no offense but whats the point of even bothering to argue about whether or not Marion would start. There is no way in hell he is on this team unless we get rid of one of the boston three party.

Besides that the guy didn't want to play with Steve Nash anymore why would we want him on this team

TP -- this is crucial, and it's been my problem with the Matrix for a few years now.  He may be a nice guy away from the floor, but from everything I understand about him -- as detailed particularly well in Jack McCallum's excellent 7 Seconds or Less -- he is a complete and utter basket case.  I want no part of him in green.

That said, in the event that this would come to fruition, I stand completely behind Soap's commentary about starters.

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Re: We should draft with the future in mind
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2008, 10:41:13 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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We need a shooting guard either through the draft or via free agency.  Need to cut back on Ray Allen's minutes next year to keep him fresher and more productive.  Do not know who will be available in the draft or FA, but I think this is our number one priority. 

I prefer a long and athletic SF who can shoot, slash, and defend.  I wouldn't mind getting Shawn Marion, but he'd be an overpriced 6th man.

Further, "overpriced" would be about the tip of the iceberg.  The guy made $16 mil this year and was the 12th highest paid player in basketball.  And he wasn't thrilled about that.

-sw


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Re: We must retool
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2008, 10:43:07 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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sorry, not a fan of your name, nor the topic of this thread pre-the finals even beginning.

besides
Quote
I am a fan who thinks Tony Allen is a keeper

I saw this and stopped reading.  Sorry to trivialize your post.

Well, not really.

God bless and good night.

No problem, BrickJames.  There aren't many Tony Allen fans left  :)  I think he's flying under everyone's radar right now because he's been buried behind of Pierce, Ray, Posey and House (and now Cassell).  Think back to last year before his tragic knee injury--remember how he was making believers out of his naysayers?  He's still got that type of game.  He does need to sharpen his ball handling and rework his form on his jumper, and with a good offseason workout regimen, I think we'll see Tony Allen turn heads again.



2008champs -- since you mention being a TA fan, I'd recommend taking a look back in the thread archives for a thread Bahku started called "Tony Allen...What's the answer?"  Got a lot of good discussion, both on your pro-TA side and the somewhat more pessimistic view that Brick, CoachBo and many others (self included) espouse.  I believe this also stemmed from the back end of the comments section of my column after Game 2 of the Detroit series entitled "A Truly Thoughtless Loss" in which I got into it toward the end of the comments section with an admissions evaluator from OK State.  Just thought it would be discussion that might interest you.

Brick, I'm absolutely with you about not being thrilled to see the retool discussion at the forefront before we've even got to the most exciting part of this go-around...but that said, I'll mention that CDR, Chalmers and Rush would all be at or near the top of my list at 30.  The last two are particularly odd given my Mizzou background, but I was a Celts diehard long before my Mizzou days, and they've always come well ahead in my heart than the Tigers.  We're headed to the finals largely on the back of a Jayhawk, and while I'll never root for them while at Kansas, guys like Chalmers and Rush are solid ball players who could become contributors sooner rather than later.

-sw

Good thoughts, Steve, and a tp on the Chalmers-Rush duo. I like CDR as well.

I do think that we're going to have to empty some roster spots. At least one comes from a retirement, I suspect. And I think that we're going to unload a couple of current roster players as well.

But with that said, I'm not at all convinced that the true improvements we need to make come from the draft. I certainly wouldn't be afraid to trade out of this draft, either for immediate help or for picks in coming seasons.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: We must retool
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2008, 10:46:13 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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sorry, not a fan of your name, nor the topic of this thread pre-the finals even beginning.

besides
Quote
I am a fan who thinks Tony Allen is a keeper

I saw this and stopped reading.  Sorry to trivialize your post.

Well, not really.

God bless and good night.

No problem, BrickJames.  There aren't many Tony Allen fans left  :)  I think he's flying under everyone's radar right now because he's been buried behind of Pierce, Ray, Posey and House (and now Cassell).  Think back to last year before his tragic knee injury--remember how he was making believers out of his naysayers?  He's still got that type of game.  He does need to sharpen his ball handling and rework his form on his jumper, and with a good offseason workout regimen, I think we'll see Tony Allen turn heads again.



2008champs -- since you mention being a TA fan, I'd recommend taking a look back in the thread archives for a thread Bahku started called "Tony Allen...What's the answer?"  Got a lot of good discussion, both on your pro-TA side and the somewhat more pessimistic view that Brick, CoachBo and many others (self included) espouse.  I believe this also stemmed from the back end of the comments section of my column after Game 2 of the Detroit series entitled "A Truly Thoughtless Loss" in which I got into it toward the end of the comments section with an admissions evaluator from OK State.  Just thought it would be discussion that might interest you.

Brick, I'm absolutely with you about not being thrilled to see the retool discussion at the forefront before we've even got to the most exciting part of this go-around...but that said, I'll mention that CDR, Chalmers and Rush would all be at or near the top of my list at 30.  The last two are particularly odd given my Mizzou background, but I was a Celts diehard long before my Mizzou days, and they've always come well ahead in my heart than the Tigers.  We're headed to the finals largely on the back of a Jayhawk, and while I'll never root for them while at Kansas, guys like Chalmers and Rush are solid ball players who could become contributors sooner rather than later.

-sw

Good thoughts, Steve, and a tp on the Chalmers-Rush duo. I like CDR as well.

I do think that we're going to have to empty some roster spots. At least one comes from a retirement, I suspect. And I think that we're going to unload a couple of current roster players as well.

But with that said, I'm not at all convinced that the true improvements we need to make come from the draft. I certainly wouldn't be afraid to trade out of this draft, either for immediate help or for picks in coming seasons.

Thanks, CoachBo.  I'm not averse to dealing picks, but I wouldn't want it done Robert Sarver-style in Phoenix -- just for the sake of selling them off.  I haven't done much looking at the free agent class this year yet (call me crazy, but I've been a tad wrapped up in the playoff run) or thought too much about who is going to look to be moved this summer -- do you have any thoughts on the direction you would like to go in as far as acquiring experienced players?  If there are more Poseys and PJs out there for the taking, absolutely.  That said, I like a lot of the talent toward the bottom of the first round, and as we've both agreed, I don't think it's a value-less pick.  Any thoughts on the ways to go here?

-sw


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Re: We should draft with the future in mind
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2008, 11:03:09 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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I really think Rush will be there at 30, and he provides us a smarter version of Tony Allen, which enables us to cut him loose. I suspect that he won't be the only roster player we won't invite back. That's the best option, in my view, although I am not at all in favor of drafting a European to stash. If the pick can't be used for a contributor next year, then move it with an eye toward the next year or two.

As for trades, there are a couple of situations I'd like to monitor: Kirk Hinrich?Ben Gordon in Chicago and Marcus Camby in Denver, the latter being a bit of a reach and the former tied pretty clearly to whether Chicago goes for Rose with the first pick. I'm a little bit more of a strategy wonk than a salary capologist, but I'm assuming neither would be particularly cheap. I'm a little cloudier on the possible bigs out there because like you, I'm not focusing quite yet on the off-season.

I do think there's one major on-roster priority: to resign Posey. I recognize that we're probably going to have to pinch the roster a little bit from the back end to make it happen.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 11:11:42 PM by CoachBo »
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Re: We should draft with the future in mind
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2008, 11:45:42 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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I really think Rush will be there at 30, and he provides us a smarter version of Tony Allen, which enables us to cut him loose. I suspect that he won't be the only roster player we won't invite back. That's the best option, in my view, although I am not at all in favor of drafting a European to stash. If the pick can't be used for a contributor next year, then move it with an eye toward the next year or two.

As for trades, there are a couple of situations I'd like to monitor: Kirk Hinrich?Ben Gordon in Chicago and Marcus Camby in Denver, the latter being a bit of a reach and the former tied pretty clearly to whether Chicago goes for Rose with the first pick. I'm a little bit more of a strategy wonk than a salary capologist, but I'm assuming neither would be particularly cheap. I'm a little cloudier on the possible bigs out there because like you, I'm not focusing quite yet on the off-season.

I do think there's one major on-roster priority: to resign Posey. I recognize that we're probably going to have to pinch the roster a little bit from the back end to make it happen.

I love Camby, and despite the age (and former injury) concerns, at a reasonable price, it would be nice to see him in green.  But I don't see the reasonable price happening too quickly -- and ultimately, for the first time ever, I almost feel bad talking about potential centers when Perk is in the midst of the best stretch of his career at the perfect time.  Go Perk, go!  ;D

I'm not sure I see the utility in a guy like Hinrich, if only because his contract makes him quite pricey as a back-up, and I'm in no rush to yank Rondo.  Perhaps I'm seeing things in green-colored glasses, but particularly in light of Hinrich's poor campaign this year, he doesn't really hold much allure to me.  The only possible way I'll be a booster of Gordon is as a sixth man "instant offense" type guy.  I've always believed Chicago has over-valued him, largely because he is a two-guard who is undersized, doesn't handle or pass the ball particularly well and doesn't guard anyone.  In any other words, he's a 6-3 streak shooter.  So I'm leery of paying too much for him.  Certainly interesting thoughts though, and I hope it doesn't come off like I'm 'tearing the ideas down' -- clearly, I haven't thought up anything much better.  Just my knee-jerk reactions to the guys you mentioned.

I'm with you beyond belief regarding Rush and TA.  I think Rush is probably an upgrade right out of the gate, and if the knee isn't a killer, I believe he could be a huge improvement there in the long run.  It's going to be all about health with him.

And no question about Posey.  The man needs to be in green.

-sw


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Re: We should draft with the future in mind
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2008, 11:52:53 PM »

Offline Chris

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I really think Rush will be there at 30, and he provides us a smarter version of Tony Allen, which enables us to cut him loose. I suspect that he won't be the only roster player we won't invite back. That's the best option, in my view, although I am not at all in favor of drafting a European to stash. If the pick can't be used for a contributor next year, then move it with an eye toward the next year or two.

As for trades, there are a couple of situations I'd like to monitor: Kirk Hinrich?Ben Gordon in Chicago and Marcus Camby in Denver, the latter being a bit of a reach and the former tied pretty clearly to whether Chicago goes for Rose with the first pick. I'm a little bit more of a strategy wonk than a salary capologist, but I'm assuming neither would be particularly cheap. I'm a little cloudier on the possible bigs out there because like you, I'm not focusing quite yet on the off-season.

I do think there's one major on-roster priority: to resign Posey. I recognize that we're probably going to have to pinch the roster a little bit from the back end to make it happen.

I hope you are right about Rush...but I am getting less confident by the day.  He just is too talented to be there that late.

As far as the Euro-stash move, I agree that it would be much better if they could move it for a future asset (like a #1 next year), but I have a feeling that is unlikely, because of the lack of interest in a pick like ours (a high second round pick has more value, because of the more cap flexibility it provides).  So if they can draft someone who they think will be a good value in a couple of years, but they don't have to pay or use a roster spot on for a couple years, they will jump at it.

The trades you mention are out of our range IMO, since it would require us to likely need to trade one of the big 3 to get any of those guys in here.  We are more likely going to be looking at FA's who are willing to come here at a discount.  We have our MLE, LLE, and then the vet minimum, and that is about it.  We also could use a combination of Tony Allen, Scalabrine, and one of the young guys to try to fill a hole...although that is unlikely.

And finally, you are right on about Posey.  They need to resign him, and hopefully he is willing to either not opt out, or take a contract using the non-bird rights (meaning he can make 120% of his current salary with 8% raises I believe).  That way we can use the full MLE to look for a big man and/or PG.

Re: We should draft with the future in mind
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2008, 11:56:08 PM »

Offline greenhead85

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I would love to watch Gerald Green and Brandon Rush running down the wings for a fastbreak with Rondo bringing down the ball. Wow! Who's going to fly high and make the throw down or who's going to make the pull-up jumper while the other one goes near the hoop? Either one of the two wingmen can do it with ease. That scene is something to dream about.
For a big man, I'd say we have to look for size/length with athleticism.  Hibbert, Donte Greene or Hardin are very good to excellent picks.  If Sheed is really gone in Motorcity, let's get him. Remember, Gasol and Bynum will be manning LAL's shaded lane next year and the years to come. We need to match well against that.
For a guard, if only we can get OJ Mayo or Chalmers, that we'll make us really explosive!

Re: We should draft with the future in mind
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2008, 11:59:03 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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I would love to watch Gerald Green and Brandon Rush running down the wings for a fastbreak with Rondo bringing down the ball. Wow! Who's going to fly high and make the throw down or who's going to make the pull-up jumper while the other one goes near the hoop? Either one of the two wingmen can do it with ease. That scene is something to dream about.
For a big man, I'd say we have to look for size/length with athleticism.  Hibbert, Donte Greene or Hardin are very good to excellent picks.  If Sheed is really gone in Motorcity, let's get him. Remember, Gasol and Bynum will be manning LAL's shaded lane next year and the years to come. We need to match well against that.
For a guard, if only we can get OJ Mayo or Chalmers, that we'll make us really explosive!

Mayo likely won't be anywhere close to available by the team the Celts' pick rolls around, and I'm certainly not sorry about that.  Million dollar talent, $1.99 head.  I'm happy to stay away, and for now, I'm rooting hard for him to somehow drop to six and end up a Knick.  When he turns into a model citizen and heckuva pro ball player, I'll feel like a fool  ;), but I've still got some doubts about him.  As Bo and I have discussed above, Chalmers would be a very solid pick.  With you on that.

-sw


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