CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Yogi on January 12, 2013, 05:29:30 PM
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We have a "fans who don't appreciate our big men" problem.
1. KG is an elite big man on the floor.
2. Jared Sullinger is a rebounding machine, high percentage scorer, and ONE OF THE BEST DEFENSIVE big men in the league. Here's some analysis by Matty Mackay from Celtics life. http://www.celticslife.com/2013/01/jared-sullinger-world-class-defender.html
3. Brandon Bass is without a doubt 6'7 on a good day. But he's one of the BEST one-on-one defenders in the league, he's ELITE at mid-range and free throw shooting. He's underrated in the fast breaks, and he dishes out hard fouls and sets mean screens. He's a routine player and unfortunately he was constantly shuffled in and out of line ups due to injuries. That really threw off his offensive game. Now that Avery is back and our starting line-up is set, he will get his offensive rhythm back. He's also lost a lot of weight in the off season and he's moving very well.
4. Jeff Green coming off of heart surgery lost a lot of muscle and rhythm. He's slowly rounding into shape but he's a match up nightmare in the 4 spot when we go small. He can shoot the 3 pretty well for a PF. His rebounding and defense has improves every game.
5. Chris Wilcox has had heart surgery a few months later than Jeff Green. He's also had other injuries. He also gets little playing time to find his rhythm. He WILL be a factor later in the season. An excellent energy guy to wear out the other teams bigs.
6. Poor Jason Collins gets berated upon because what he does cannot be seen in stats or even by your eyes. Want to know why Jason Collins was the first big guy we signed in the off season before guys like Darko, K-mart, Blatche and Birdman? He brings something extremely important. He's the best talking big man who has the IQ to understand defensive rotations who gets people to the right spots. This means when KG goes to the bench we don't lose defensive communication. This is the biggest reason our defense went away when KG sat, but now people continue to talk. In the Rockets game, Sullinger and Collins was our best (non KG) big man line up defensively. They both talk well and took charges. Also Collins communication is probably what helps our bench pick up our defense in practice when they go against the starters.
7. Fab Melo doesn't count. Unless we have a slew of injuries at the big position he will not play this year. He's a nice prospect though.
Would it be nice to have a talented young big man like Cousins? Yes. But let's not fail to appreciate the incredible depth, talent and versatility we already have in that position. I would argue that there are very few teams who have a better rotation of big men than the Celtics. We lack young height (next year Fab!), but we have a mix of high IQ, athleticism, experience, rebounding, blocks, charges, steals, energy, poise and clutch.
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Outside of KG, and recently Sully, we haven't had a single reliable big man this year. The Brandon Bass you describe isn't the player we've had this year. Bass has been a mediocre defender -- certainly nowhere near tops in the league -- and has been a poor rebounder, scorer, and shooter.
Neither Jeff Green nor Chris Wilcox can be relied on for any level of consistency, and Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player.
To be a top-tier contender, I'd like to see the team upgrade the front court.
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We have a "fans who don't appreciate our big men" problem.
3. Brandon Bass is without a doubt 6'7 on a good day. But he's one of the BEST one-on-one defenders in the league, he's ELITE at mid-range and free throw shooting. He's underrated in the fast breaks, and he dishes out hard fouls and sets mean screens. He's a routine player and unfortunately he was constantly shuffled in and out of line ups due to injuries. That really threw off his offensive game. Now that Avery is back and our starting line-up is set, he will get his offensive rhythm back. He's also lost a lot of weight in the off season and he's moving very well.
That Brandon Bass was the Brandon Bass last year. The one who one of THE BEST Mid-Range jump shooter in the league.
As for;
5. Chris Wilcox has had heart surgery a few months later than Jeff Green. He's also had other injuries. He also gets little playing time to find his rhythm. He WILL be a factor later in the season. An excellent energy guy to wear out the other teams bigs.
6. Poor Jason Collins gets berated upon because what he does cannot be seen in stats or even by your eyes. Want to know why Jason Collins was the first big guy we signed in the off season before guys like Darko, K-mart, Blatche and Birdman? He brings something extremely important. He's the best talking big man who has the IQ to understand defensive rotations who gets people to the right spots. This means when KG goes to the bench we don't lose defensive communication. This is the biggest reason our defense went away when KG sat, but now people continue to talk. In the Rockets game, Sullinger and Collins was our best (non KG) big man line up defensively. They both talk well and took charges. Also Collins communication is probably what helps our bench pick up our defense in practice when they go against the starters.
I could not AGREE more. Wilcox/Collins get a bad rep around here, but they were brought here for specific non-statistic roles to fill, which they've done so far. I also don't consider Green a "big man" even though I agree he needs to be slid to PF at times, just not all the time. All that said, Wilcox & Collins should be our third string bigs, not backups.
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Dont forget Fab!!!! :-X
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They have KG and two PFs.
When KG is off the court, more then about any player in the league, his team suffers.
And finally, the target for this team is the Heat. Teams with talented size have shown the best challenge to the Heat.
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Outside of KG, and recently Sully, we haven't had a single reliable big man this year. The Brandon Bass you describe isn't the player we've had this year. Bass has been a mediocre defender -- certainly nowhere near tops in the league -- and has been a poor rebounder, scorer, and shooter.
Neither Jeff Green nor Chris Wilcox can be relied on for any level of consistency, and Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player.
To be a top-tier contender, I'd like to see the team upgrade the front court.
That's a pretty accurate summary of how people view this team.
Bass is struggling, but he's had a reason to struggle. Now that his role is clear and he's on the floor with Rondo, Bradley and KG he will become a better player than he was last year.
Jason Collins is a below average basketball player for sure, but what he brings for short minutes when KG goes to the bench is completely unappreciated. When KG is not on the floor, he orchestrates the defense.
Jeff Green and Chris Wilcox will get better and better the further they move from their surgery. Chris Wilcox is the Leandro Barbosa of our big men. When everyone is healthy, his role is to come in for short bursts and give us energy and change the pace. I'd say he's been extremely consistent in that role.
Jeff Green has the most difficult role of all the Celtics. He has to change constantly from being a perimeter player to a big man. Most players are simply guards, wings or bigs. There will NEVER be consistency in terms of production from Jeff Green because he is the only player whose ROLE changes from possession to possession. But when Jeff consistently brings energy, defense, hustle etc. we are a better team. I don't know about you, but he's been pretty darn consistent in that respect the last 6-7 games.
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if we had a legit big last year, we would beat the Heat
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if we had a Avery Bradley last year, we would beat the Heat
Fixed it for you.
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They have KG and two PFs.
When KG is off the court, more then about any player in the league, his team suffers.
And finally, the target for this team is the Heat. Teams with talented size have shown the best challenge to the Heat.
The KG statement has not been entirely true for the last few games. Last year we had to deal with Pietrus, Ryan Hollins, Greg Stiemsma, JaJuan Johnson and Sean Williams when KG went to the bench. This year we have Green, Sullinger, Collins, Wilcox and Melo. That's an upgrade in every postion.
*edit As far as the Heat, we took them to 7 games as I recall with a much worse frontline and hold a healthy edge over them in the regular season match ups. The bigger Bulls, Pacers and even thunder didn't do much against them.
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They have KG and two PFs.
When KG is off the court, more then about any player in the league, his team suffers.
And finally, the target for this team is the Heat. Teams with talented size have shown the best challenge to the Heat.
The KG statement has not been entirely true for the last few games. Last year we had to deal with Pietrus, Ryan Hollins, Greg Stiemsma, JaJuan Johnson and Sean Williams when KG went to the bench. This year we have Green, Sullinger, Collins, Wilcox and Melo. That's an upgrade in every postion.
*edit As far as the Heat, we took them to 7 games as I recall with a much worse frontline and hold a healthy edge over them in the regular season match ups. The bigger Bulls, Pacers and even thunder didn't do much against them.
The names do not matter.
The Celtics defense is 12 points better when KG is on the floor.
That is an issue for this team.
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if we had a Avery Bradley last year, we would beat the Heat
Fixed it for you.
That is true also!!
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Outside of KG, and recently Sully, we haven't had a single reliable big man this year. The Brandon Bass you describe isn't the player we've had this year. Bass has been a mediocre defender -- certainly nowhere near tops in the league -- and has been a poor rebounder, scorer, and shooter.
Neither Jeff Green nor Chris Wilcox can be relied on for any level of consistency, and Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player.
To be a top-tier contender, I'd like to see the team upgrade the front court.
How? Sign Birdman?
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The suggestion that Bass is one of the best one-on-one defenders in the league is laughable. Every night he seems to get one good defensive play (like a key block, steal or good defensive possession) purely as a result of his high level of 'hustle' but the vast majority of his time on the court his defense is average at best, poor at worst.
I don't agree either that he will improve over last season's form. Even before this season began I was saying Bass pretty much reached his ceiling, and we wouldn't really see much more from him than we already have. So far this season he's been a major degradation compared to last season. He's finally showing some signs of improvement (he seems happier as a starter and his shot is slowly returning) but I believe he will only improve up to last years level and then hit a wall. He simply doesn't have much potential.
Do I think we have a weakness in the frontcourt? Yeh, I do. I think our weaknesses are:
1. Starting PF
2. Backup center
Bass is decent as a backup PF but he's mediocre as a starter...upgrading our starting PF (somebody like David West, Paul Millsap) while keeping Sullinger coming off the bench would be a major upgrade.
At the center position KG has been outstanding, no surprise there. His numbers on a per 36 minute basis are still pretty much on par with 2008 and his defense is as good as ever. Our backup center (Collins) is a decent third string center, but he's just not solid enough to be a primary backup. He's too limited offensively and as a rebounder. Picking up a starting center (like Gortat, Cousins, etc) actually might not help us much because it would force KG to move back to PF, and when he's started at PF this season (small sample size, granted) he's struggled. This is why I think a solid backup center (Dalembert, Hickson, Mahinmi, etc) might actually be more suitable for us than a star center.
No doubt that Barbosa, Bass an Collins are our most expendable players right now, and if we could get a servicable center like Mahinmi in return for say Bass and Barbosa, I think that would be a massive upgrade. It allows us to move Sully to the starting PF spot and back him up with a combination of Wilcox (when he returns) and Green (who needs more minutes anyway).
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Miami hasnt sign Birdman yet..maybe something wrong with him??
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Outside of KG, and recently Sully, we haven't had a single reliable big man this year. The Brandon Bass you describe isn't the player we've had this year. Bass has been a mediocre defender -- certainly nowhere near tops in the league -- and has been a poor rebounder, scorer, and shooter.
Neither Jeff Green nor Chris Wilcox can be relied on for any level of consistency, and Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player.
To be a top-tier contender, I'd like to see the team upgrade the front court.
It isn't a big league anymore, what teams will kill us with their bigs? And in order to get a quality big like people want we'd have to give up too much. Samuel Dalembert isn't the answer.
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pass on Samuel!!!
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A small addition would be good but not giving up Bass for some mediocre big. The starting unit will get it together soon enough.
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We have a "fans who don't appreciate our big men" problem.
1. KG is an elite big man on the floor.
2. Jared Sullinger is a rebounding machine, high percentage scorer, and ONE OF THE BEST DEFENSIVE big men in the league. Here's some analysis by Matty Mackay from Celtics life. http://www.celticslife.com/2013/01/jared-sullinger-world-class-defender.html
3. Brandon Bass is without a doubt 6'7 on a good day. But he's one of the BEST one-on-one defenders in the league, he's ELITE at mid-range and free throw shooting. He's underrated in the fast breaks, and he dishes out hard fouls and sets mean screens. He's a routine player and unfortunately he was constantly shuffled in and out of line ups due to injuries. That really threw off his offensive game. Now that Avery is back and our starting line-up is set, he will get his offensive rhythm back. He's also lost a lot of weight in the off season and he's moving very well.
4. Jeff Green coming off of heart surgery lost a lot of muscle and rhythm. He's slowly rounding into shape but he's a match up nightmare in the 4 spot when we go small. He can shoot the 3 pretty well for a PF. His rebounding and defense has improves every game.
5. Chris Wilcox has had heart surgery a few months later than Jeff Green. He's also had other injuries. He also gets little playing time to find his rhythm. He WILL be a factor later in the season. An excellent energy guy to wear out the other teams bigs.
6. Poor Jason Collins gets berated upon because what he does cannot be seen in stats or even by your eyes. Want to know why Jason Collins was the first big guy we signed in the off season before guys like Darko, K-mart, Blatche and Birdman? He brings something extremely important. He's the best talking big man who has the IQ to understand defensive rotations who gets people to the right spots. This means when KG goes to the bench we don't lose defensive communication. This is the biggest reason our defense went away when KG sat, but now people continue to talk. In the Rockets game, Sullinger and Collins was our best (non KG) big man line up defensively. They both talk well and took charges. Also Collins communication is probably what helps our bench pick up our defense in practice when they go against the starters.
7. Fab Melo doesn't count. Unless we have a slew of injuries at the big position he will not play this year. He's a nice prospect though.
Would it be nice to have a talented young big man like Cousins? Yes. But let's not fail to appreciate the incredible depth, talent and versatility we already have in that position. I would argue that there are very few teams who have a better rotation of big men than the Celtics. We lack young height (next year Fab!), but we have a mix of high IQ, athleticism, experience, rebounding, blocks, charges, steals, energy, poise and clutch.
(http://rapradar.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/mj-gif.gif)
First the Bass comment then the Collins...this much laughing in a day is unsafe for my health!
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Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.
If you get someone who can score from the point, bass will get taken advantage of.
On the offense, all he can do is shoot the two. You have to spoonfeed him the ball. Guys will cheat off of him and usually you won't pay , by doing this
All in all bass is ok , but better to get a legit C that can at least give you offensive rebounds and block shots. I think i just mentioned Melo here
I'm sure danny will try to move him, if anybody wants him. Not many will
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Miami hasnt sign Birdman yet..maybe something wrong with him??
It may have something to do with him being a Celtic fan. 8)
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Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.
How do you figure? Despite what all of the people wearing Celtics glasses will tell you, Bass' defense against Lebron in the playoffs was horrendous. Lebron went past him like he was standing still and pretty much scored at will. Pietrus, Pavlovic and Marquis all played better defense agasinst opposing SF's than Bass did and they are all veteran minimum players.
Bass got his contract for these reasons:
1. His midrange jumper
2. His work ethic
3. His youth
His defensive rating has been consistently poor ever since he's been a Celtic, completely regardless of whether he started or came off the bench, and which players he played alongside.
He's capable of playing good individual defense but only against undersized PF's or slow SF's.
His team defense is terrible.
He has zero post up game
He has no range outside 15 feet
He's an average (at best) rebounder
With his jumpshot falling like it did last season he's barely worth his contract. With his jumpshot not falling he is worth the BAE at best.
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Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.
How do you figure? Despite what all of the people wearing Celtics glasses will tell you, Bass' defense against Lebron in the playoffs was horrendous. Lebron went past him like he was standing still and pretty much scored at will. Pietrus, Pavlovic and Marquis all played better defense agasinst opposing SF's than Bass did and they are all veteran minimum players.
Bass got his contract for these reasons:
1. His midrange jumper
2. His work ethic
3. His youth
His defensive rating has been consistently poor ever since he's been a Celtic, completely regardless of whether he started or came off the bench, and which players he played alongside.
He's capable of playing good individual defense but only against undersized PF's or slow SF's.
His team defense is terrible.
He has zero post up game
He has no range outside 15 feet
He's an average (at best) rebounder
With his jumpshot falling like it did last season he's barely worth his contract. With his jumpshot not falling he is worth the BAE at best.
The truth is somewhere in between.
Bass has never been an elite defender against SFs. He tried his best against Lebron, but he just didn't have the skill set to defend the best player in the world.
However, last year his defense was really quite good. Last year, Bass ranked 16th in the NBA in terms of points allowed per possession. He ranked 14th in isolation situations, 7th on post-ups, and 2nd covering the pick-and-roll man. That's really excellent defense. A lot of it was the KG factor, but overall Bass did a really good job.
This year, he's been much more mediocre, and his decline has been a big part of our early season struggles.
Also, in terms of the statement "He has no range outside 15 feet", that's simply not true. Last season, Bass was most prolific shot was from 16 feet out to the 3PT line. Link (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bassbr01/shooting/2012/).
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Wait did you just say Bass is one of the best One on One defenders in the league???
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Don't agree with OP , if not for the "LUCK" of Sully falling for the C's we'd we be in pretty serious trouble.
Especially with Bass playing so aweful.
Hummm...did I mention Bass was aweful...good lord.....dat boy gots 6 thumbs .
Sully playing well also exposes how weak Bass is as a starter PF.
Not to pile on Bass, but his shooting worse than JET too.
I would love or someone to explain to Bass how you have to rebound with BOTH HANDS and pull it in. He taps the ball to the other team.
We got a HUGE BIG man hole to fill . And its gonna get worse as KG ages.
A young star power center like Cousins is exactly what we need to have furture continued suscess.
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Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.
How do you figure? Despite what all of the people wearing Celtics glasses will tell you, Bass' defense against Lebron in the playoffs was horrendous. Lebron went past him like he was standing still and pretty much scored at will. Pietrus, Pavlovic and Marquis all played better defense agasinst opposing SF's than Bass did and they are all veteran minimum players.
Bass got his contract for these reasons:
1. His midrange jumper
2. His work ethic
3. His youth
His defensive rating has been consistently poor ever since he's been a Celtic, completely regardless of whether he started or came off the bench, and which players he played alongside.
He's capable of playing good individual defense but only against undersized PF's or slow SF's.
His team defense is terrible.
He has zero post up game
He has no range outside 15 feet
He's an average (at best) rebounder
With his jumpshot falling like it did last season he's barely worth his contract. With his jumpshot not falling he is worth the BAE at best.
The truth is somewhere in between.
Bass has never been an elite defender against SFs. He tried his best against Lebron, but he just didn't have the skill set to defend the best player in the world.
However, last year his defense was really quite good. Last year, Bass ranked 16th in the NBA in terms of points allowed per possession. He ranked 14th in isolation situations, 7th on post-ups, and 2nd covering the pick-and-roll man. That's really excellent defense. A lot of it was the KG factor, but overall Bass did a really good job.
This year, he's been much more mediocre, and his decline has been a big part of our early season struggles.
Also, in terms of the statement "He has no range outside 15 feet", that's simply not true. Last season, Bass was most prolific shot was from 16 feet out to the 3PT line. Link (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bassbr01/shooting/2012/).
Doc has to take some of the responsibility for Brandon's early poor returns. He shuffled lineups quite a bit and bass was the guy that got moved around the most. I reckon we would have been in a better place right now if doc had just weathered the storm while starting Brandon instead of moving sully up or the god awful mess that was Jason Collins starting.
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They have KG and two PFs.
When KG is off the court, more then about any player in the league, his team suffers.
And finally, the target for this team is the Heat. Teams with talented size have shown the best challenge to the Heat.
The KG statement has not been entirely true for the last few games. Last year we had to deal with Pietrus, Ryan Hollins, Greg Stiemsma, JaJuan Johnson and Sean Williams when KG went to the bench. This year we have Green, Sullinger, Collins, Wilcox and Melo. That's an upgrade in every postion.
*edit As far as the Heat, we took them to 7 games as I recall with a much worse frontline and hold a healthy edge over them in the regular season match ups. The bigger Bulls, Pacers and even thunder didn't do much against them.
The names do not matter.
The Celtics defense is 12 points better when KG is on the floor.
That is an issue for this team.
The point is, while the defense is 12 points better when KG was on the floor, a few weeks ago the defense was 18 points better when KG was on the floor. Since it's a cumulative number, the deficit has gone down over time. During our winning streak (5 games) we're a combined +24 with KG on the bench. That's an encouraging sign.
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Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.
How do you figure? Despite what all of the people wearing Celtics glasses will tell you, Bass' defense against Lebron in the playoffs was horrendous. Lebron went past him like he was standing still and pretty much scored at will. Pietrus, Pavlovic and Marquis all played better defense agasinst opposing SF's than Bass did and they are all veteran minimum players.
Bass got his contract for these reasons:
1. His midrange jumper
2. His work ethic
3. His youth
His defensive rating has been consistently poor ever since he's been a Celtic, completely regardless of whether he started or came off the bench, and which players he played alongside.
He's capable of playing good individual defense but only against undersized PF's or slow SF's.
His team defense is terrible.
He has zero post up game
He has no range outside 15 feet
Aside from the fact that he's a better defender than you claim, his shooting from 16-23 feet has been well above average 6 years in a row.
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In terms of pure talent the Cs dont have a big man prolem. However they do have a big man rotation problem.
This month has shown that Sully is our 2nd best big behind KG. With this our current big man rotation sits 1.KG 2. Sully 3. Bass 4. Collins 5. Wilcox. The issue lies with the fact that the celtics rotation is assentaily a 3 man rotation with collins getting minimal minutes. Ideally the 3rd big in the rotation compliments the 1st and the 2nd. Bass does not, he fits well with KG (though not ideal on the boards), bass and sully are an issue. An example of a solid rotation is the Bulls with Noah, Boozer and Gibson. Gibson fits nicely on the court either boozer or noah. The celtics do not need a talent upgrade at their 3rd big (bass really is a solid 3rd big) but they do need a differnt type of player. If bass was replaced with a 6'9"+ athletic shot blocking big man then the Cs big man rotion would be exceptional. (example Tyrus Thomas, Ekpe Udoh, Sam Dalembert, Ed Davis, Brandon Wright, Amir Johnson)
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We still lack someone who can anchor the d and protect the paint when KG is out.
A Stiemsma type backup C would really complete the rotation. Just need 10 to 15 minutes to hold down the fort.
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But let's not fail to appreciate the incredible depth, talent and versatility we already have in that position. I would argue that there are very few teams who have a better rotation of big men than the Celtics. We lack young height (next year Fab!), but we have a mix of high IQ, athleticism, experience, rebounding, blocks, charges, steals, energy, poise and clutch.
We get out rebounded a lot! I wish I had this blind optism like this cat but I have had the misfortune to watch the games.
We are last in rebounds.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/rebounds-per-game/sort/avgRebounds
Bass is undersized, period. Ideally he is a bench guy I think who can provide pop and a change of pace off the bench. He doesn't board well for all that athletic ability. I don't think he is as bad as a man to man defender as some here say but he is not good help defender or back up shot blocker.
Aside from KG, who is a very perimeter orientated big and Sully's emergence we could have used a big. Do you think using Jason Collins was ideal? I don't!
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Outside of KG, and recently Sully, we haven't had a single reliable big man this year. The Brandon Bass you describe isn't the player we've had this year. Bass has been a mediocre defender -- certainly nowhere near tops in the league -- and has been a poor rebounder, scorer, and shooter.
Neither Jeff Green nor Chris Wilcox can be relied on for any level of consistency, and Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player.
To be a top-tier contender, I'd like to see the team upgrade the front court.
It isn't a big league anymore, what teams will kill us with their bigs? And in order to get a quality big like people want we'd have to give up too much. Samuel Dalembert isn't the answer.
Its not what teams would kill us with their big men, its what teams could we kill with the big man if we had one. Miami cant defend size, if we put a legit center in the middle they would have a hard time with us.
We do have a big man problem. Outside of KG and Sully, there is no big man threat on our team. Partly due to the fact we have no player worthy of getting minutes over 6 foot 7 if wilcox is out. Collins is locker room smart, but we could definitely upgrade at his position.
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But let's not fail to appreciate the incredible depth, talent and versatility we already have in that position. I would argue that there are very few teams who have a better rotation of big men than the Celtics. We lack young height (next year Fab!), but we have a mix of high IQ, athleticism, experience, rebounding, blocks, charges, steals, energy, poise and clutch.
We get out rebounded a lot! I wish I had this blind optism like this cat but I have had the misfortune to watch the games.
We are last in rebounds.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/rebounds-per-game/sort/avgRebounds
Bass is undersized, period. Ideally he is a bench guy I think who can provide pop and a change of pace off the bench. He doesn't board well for all that athletic ability. I don't think he is as bad as a man to man defender as some here say but he is not good help defender or back up shot blocker.
Aside from KG, who is a very perimeter orientated big and Sully's emergence we could have used a big. Do you think using Jason Collins was ideal? I don't!
rebounds per game is the wrong thing to look at you want rebound rate.
We are still essentially tied for last but that's an offensive board is we are slightly above average on our defensive glass.
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Outside of KG, and recently Sully, we haven't had a single reliable big man this year. The Brandon Bass you describe isn't the player we've had this year. Bass has been a mediocre defender -- certainly nowhere near tops in the league -- and has been a poor rebounder, scorer, and shooter.
Neither Jeff Green nor Chris Wilcox can be relied on for any level of consistency, and Jason Collins is a terrible basketball player.
To be a top-tier contender, I'd like to see the team upgrade the front court.
It isn't a big league anymore, what teams will kill us with their bigs? And in order to get a quality big like people want we'd have to give up too much. Samuel Dalembert isn't the answer.
Its not what teams would kill us with their big men, its what teams could we kill with the big man if we had one. Miami cant defend size, if we put a legit center in the middle they would have a hard time with us.
We do have a big man problem. Outside of KG and Sully, there is no big man threat on our team. Partly due to the fact we have no player worthy of getting minutes over 6 foot 7 if wilcox is out. Collins is locker room smart, but we could definitely upgrade at his position.
Not really you get a big to plug the middle but if you have to give up Lee or Bradley our strength in our backcourt defense would suffer. You would have guys beating us off the dribble, it wouldn't matter then who is back there. You notice before Avery was back and him and Courtney started playing this stifling defense it wouldn't matter who was back there, even KG our defense was awful teams lived in the paint. You got to keep Bradley and Lee. These guys alone are one of the biggest reasons we are giving teams hell and playing lockdown defense.
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Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.
How do you figure? Despite what all of the people wearing Celtics glasses will tell you, Bass' defense against Lebron in the playoffs was horrendous. Lebron went past him like he was standing still and pretty much scored at will. Pietrus, Pavlovic and Marquis all played better defense agasinst opposing SF's than Bass did and they are all veteran minimum players.
Bass got his contract for these reasons:
1. His midrange jumper
2. His work ethic
3. His youth
His defensive rating has been consistently poor ever since he's been a Celtic, completely regardless of whether he started or came off the bench, and which players he played alongside.
He's capable of playing good individual defense but only against undersized PF's or slow SF's.
His team defense is terrible.
He has zero post up game
He has no range outside 15 feet
He's an average (at best) rebounder
With his jumpshot falling like it did last season he's barely worth his contract. With his jumpshot not falling he is worth the BAE at best.
Totally agree, said it better than I could
Bass can't guard a statue
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IMO we have two big men, KG and Sully.
This year Bass is just a guy who is going to run around with energy, but not do much right.
Collins just fouls, fouls, and fouls.
I don't consider Green a big man.
Wilcox is injured.
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When a 27 year old player's numbers are lower than their career average that means they are in a slump. Brandon Bass has proven throughout his career that he is one of the best isolation defenders and mid range jump shooters in the league. This is very important because the athleticism of the Heat make it necessary to switch when guarding Lebron.
http://redsarmy.com/2012/10/22/the-case-for-starting-brandon-bass/
The best big that we can reasonably trade for is Marcin Gortat. I hate to burst people's bubble here, but Gortat would do absolutely nothing to help against the Heat.
March 20th, 2012 matched up against Dexter Pitman and Chris Bosh:
Gortat 13 points in 6-13 shooting. 8r 1a 1b for a -7
Pittman and Bosh combined for 15-22 for 35 points and a combined +21.
November 17th matched up against the much smaller Bosh and Battier:
Gortat 4 points in 2-5 shooting. 6r 2s 1b for a -11
Bosh and Battier combined for 13-19 FG for 24 points and were a combined +35.
The first game he had Steve Nash feeding him the ball and the second had Goran Dragic so he was playing with excellent point guards.
Unless you happen to have a trade for Dwight Howard or Marc Gasol type player there is no center that is going to dominate the Heat. More likely they would stand around and let Battier and Bosh drain 3 after 3.
The Celtics on the other hand took the Heat to 7 games playing small with Ray Allen, Marquis Daniels, Sasha Pavlovic, Mikael Pietrus, Greg Stiemsma, Ryan Hollins and Keyon Dooling.
Avery Bradley, Jason Terry, Jeff Green, Jared Sullinger, Courtney Lee, Chris Wilcox, Leandro Barbosa are an upgrade in every position.
If you want to beat the Heat you need athletic players who can contest the 3 and make life difficult for Lebron and Wade if forced to switch. That is Lee, Green and Bass. Trading 2 or three of these guys for a 7 footer who will be forced to sit in the bench because they are useless against the Heat is a sure fire way to lose to them.
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I agree we do not have a big man "problem"
But: we definitely do not have an optimum big situation, when we are relying on a 20-year old rookie to be our best rebounder and post scorer.
We could use some help.
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We have a "fans who don't appreciate our big men" problem.
1. KG is an elite big man on the floor.
2. Jared Sullinger is a rebounding machine, high percentage scorer, and ONE OF THE BEST DEFENSIVE big men in the league. Here's some analysis by Matty Mackay from Celtics life. http://www.celticslife.com/2013/01/jared-sullinger-world-class-defender.html
3. Brandon Bass is without a doubt 6'7 on a good day. But he's one of the BEST one-on-one defenders in the league, he's ELITE at mid-range and free throw shooting. He's underrated in the fast breaks, and he dishes out hard fouls and sets mean screens. He's a routine player and unfortunately he was constantly shuffled in and out of line ups due to injuries. That really threw off his offensive game. Now that Avery is back and our starting line-up is set, he will get his offensive rhythm back. He's also lost a lot of weight in the off season and he's moving very well.
4. Jeff Green coming off of heart surgery lost a lot of muscle and rhythm. He's slowly rounding into shape but he's a match up nightmare in the 4 spot when we go small. He can shoot the 3 pretty well for a PF. His rebounding and defense has improves every game.
5. Chris Wilcox has had heart surgery a few months later than Jeff Green. He's also had other injuries. He also gets little playing time to find his rhythm. He WILL be a factor later in the season. An excellent energy guy to wear out the other teams bigs.
6. Poor Jason Collins gets berated upon because what he does cannot be seen in stats or even by your eyes. Want to know why Jason Collins was the first big guy we signed in the off season before guys like Darko, K-mart, Blatche and Birdman? He brings something extremely important. He's the best talking big man who has the IQ to understand defensive rotations who gets people to the right spots. This means when KG goes to the bench we don't lose defensive communication. This is the biggest reason our defense went away when KG sat, but now people continue to talk. In the Rockets game, Sullinger and Collins was our best (non KG) big man line up defensively. They both talk well and took charges. Also Collins communication is probably what helps our bench pick up our defense in practice when they go against the starters.
7. Fab Melo doesn't count. Unless we have a slew of injuries at the big position he will not play this year. He's a nice prospect though.
Would it be nice to have a talented young big man like Cousins? Yes. But let's not fail to appreciate the incredible depth, talent and versatility we already have in that position. I would argue that there are very few teams who have a better rotation of big men than the Celtics. We lack young height (next year Fab!), but we have a mix of high IQ, athleticism, experience, rebounding, blocks, charges, steals, energy, poise and clutch.
sully cannot block shots. we need another big who can do this plus rebound and scor a tad when KG is out. We will need that for 48 minutes a game IF we get a chance to play miami again. Sure, sully can rebound and is scoring better. but he is not a 5. nor can he elevate and block shots. neither can wilcox of collins block shots.we need help. There is no denying this. We will NOT beat the heat with small ball. Or with sully, wilcox, or collins at the 5 when KG is out. You can take that to the bank. trade collins and bass for a big even throw ina pick if need be. at least get a guy who can block shots and rebound some. remember AB cannot do it all and he will need help also. It goes both ways and I rarely see anyone mention this. Everyone is all caught up being reactionary to our current win streak. sure, it is great! but i am looking far down the road on what it will take to beat the heat.
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They have KG and two PFs.
When KG is off the court, more then about any player in the league, his team suffers.
And finally, the target for this team is the Heat. Teams with talented size have shown the best challenge to the Heat.
BINGO
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Bass is a very good defender against sf's and undersized pf's that play on the perimeter.
How do you figure? Despite what all of the people wearing Celtics glasses will tell you, Bass' defense against Lebron in the playoffs was horrendous. Lebron went past him like he was standing still and pretty much scored at will. Pietrus, Pavlovic and Marquis all played better defense agasinst opposing SF's than Bass did and they are all veteran minimum players.
Bass got his contract for these reasons:
1. His midrange jumper
2. His work ethic
3. His youth
His defensive rating has been consistently poor ever since he's been a Celtic, completely regardless of whether he started or came off the bench, and which players he played alongside.
He's capable of playing good individual defense but only against undersized PF's or slow SF's.
His team defense is terrible.
He has zero post up game
He has no range outside 15 feet
He's an average (at best) rebounder
With his jumpshot falling like it did last season he's barely worth his contract. With his jumpshot not falling he is worth the BAE at best.
Totally agree, said it better than I could
Bass can't guard a statue
I agree too!!!!
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sully cannot block shots. we need another big who can do this plus rebound and scor a tad when KG is out.
Maximize Sullinger's minutes when KG is resting and maybe you only need a big who can play defense and block shots, but who doesn't have to be an above average rebounder.
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This 5 game win streak we have beaten teams with so called "elite centers" I think the team is fine right now.
our Elite Guard defense from Lee/Bradley has really aided in compensating for not having a "natural center" besides KG
and the problem is, to get a center you may have to give up someone like Lee...and that greatly weakens what is making our team successful right now.
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sully cannot block shots. we need another big who can do this plus rebound and scor a tad when KG is out.
Maximize Sullinger's minutes when KG is resting and maybe you only need a big who can play defense and block shots, but who doesn't have to be an above average rebounder.
(http://cdn1.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/5713901/20120928_jla_sj7_168.0_standard_352.0.jpg)
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I like the team we've got. When you've got a team that relies on depth as one of it's strongest qualities, I think that can time some time to gel.
We got off to a slow start when the stars were playing well, but most of the role players weren't living up to their billing. Right now the role players are playing well and we are winning, but the stars seem to be in a bit of a funk. When we hit the next stage, and everybody is balling like they are supposed, look out. I think this team's got some serious potential.
Miami will always be the favorites in the East, regardless of whether we make a move or not, but as I've thought since the off-season, we've got the team with the most potential to knock them off.
In short, keep the squad together, Danny. Messing with it now is too much of a risk.
Hopefully, we can pick up a free agent that helps shore up our front line without shaking things up.
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sully cannot block shots. we need another big who can do this plus rebound and scor a tad when KG is out.
Maximize Sullinger's minutes when KG is resting and maybe you only need a big who can play defense and block shots, but who doesn't have to be an above average rebounder.
well if bass is traded, i am thinking sully will be the starter and will be on the bench with KG at that time. wilcox can play the 4 now we just need a 5.
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sully cannot block shots. we need another big who can do this plus rebound and scor a tad when KG is out.
Maximize Sullinger's minutes when KG is resting and maybe you only need a big who can play defense and block shots, but who doesn't have to be an above average rebounder.
(http://cdn1.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/5713901/20120928_jla_sj7_168.0_standard_352.0.jpg)
Fabulous Fab Melo. Oh how i wish he was ready. he will be a great shot blocker. Once he can rebound better and learn his rotations he will be good. I wish he was ready now but too much of a liability on D.
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When a 27 year old player's numbers are lower than their career average that means they are in a slump. Brandon Bass has proven throughout his career that he is one of the best isolation defenders and mid range jump shooters in the league. This is very important because the athleticism of the Heat make it necessary to switch when guarding Lebron.
http://redsarmy.com/2012/10/22/the-case-for-starting-brandon-bass/
The best big that we can reasonably trade for is Marcin Gortat. I hate to burst people's bubble here, but Gortat would do absolutely nothing to help against the Heat.
March 20th, 2012 matched up against Dexter Pitman and Chris Bosh:
Gortat 13 points in 6-13 shooting. 8r 1a 1b for a -7
Pittman and Bosh combined for 15-22 for 35 points and a combined +21.
November 17th matched up against the much smaller Bosh and Battier:
Gortat 4 points in 2-5 shooting. 6r 2s 1b for a -11
Bosh and Battier combined for 13-19 FG for 24 points and were a combined +35.
The first game he had Steve Nash feeding him the ball and the second had Goran Dragic so he was playing with excellent point guards.
Unless you happen to have a trade for Dwight Howard or Marc Gasol type player there is no center that is going to dominate the Heat. More likely they would stand around and let Battier and Bosh drain 3 after 3.
The Celtics on the other hand took the Heat to 7 games playing small with Ray Allen, Marquis Daniels, Sasha Pavlovic, Mikael Pietrus, Greg Stiemsma, Ryan Hollins and Keyon Dooling.
Avery Bradley, Jason Terry, Jeff Green, Jared Sullinger, Courtney Lee, Chris Wilcox, Leandro Barbosa are an upgrade in every position.
If you want to beat the Heat you need athletic players who can contest the 3 and make life difficult for Lebron and Wade if forced to switch. That is Lee, Green and Bass. Trading 2 or three of these guys for a 7 footer who will be forced to sit in the bench because they are useless against the Heat is a sure fire way to lose to them.
TP good post agree with a lot of what you said
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I am pretty sure now with this re-emergence of Lee playing lockdown defense along with Ab we now have enough perimeter D to stop chalmers, miller, traitor, and battier do we not?? I mean everybody talks about how rondo will step it up in the playoffs so that SHOULD give us 3 good perimeter defenders right?
Seems many here miss the advantage we would have on the block with two bigs who can score some offensively for 48 minutes straight. pound them relentlessly like KG did to Anthony. Do it to bosh also. also you out rebound the heat down low with this. KG, sully and another good one who can block shots and rebound? oh my. That helps the perimeter defenders. has anybody forgot LBJ and DW love to dribble drive? what does a big do if they get by one of our pitbulls? swat that stuff out of there. we are not beating the heat with small ball people. we have very few advantages. we must maximize the ones we have.
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I am pretty sure now with this re-emergence of Lee playing lockdown defense along with Ab we now have enough perimeter D to stop chalmers, miller, traitor, and battier do we not?? I mean everybody talks about how rondo will step it up in the playoffs so that SHOULD give us 3 good perimeter defenders right?
Seems many here miss the advantage we would have on the block with two bigs who can score some offensively for 48 minutes straight. pound them relentlessly like KG did to Anthony. Do it to bosh also. also you out rebound the heat down low with this. KG, sully and another good one who can block shots and rebound? oh my. That helps the perimeter defenders. has anybody forgot LBJ and DW love to dribble drive? what does a big do if they get by one of our pitbulls? swat that stuff out of there. we are not beating the heat with small ball people. we have very few advantages. we must maximize the ones we have.
Good thing the Thunder had Ibaka and Perkins last year.
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its also something worth noting that last year we had to Double wade ALOT to throw him off his game because we had no one who could single cover him...and that left alot of other guys open
not that Lee/Bradley can totally stop wade. but they should be able to cover him one-on-one better than Ray allen/Dooling
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I am pretty sure now with this re-emergence of Lee playing lockdown defense along with Ab we now have enough perimeter D to stop chalmers, miller, traitor, and battier do we not?? I mean everybody talks about how rondo will step it up in the playoffs so that SHOULD give us 3 good perimeter defenders right?
Seems many here miss the advantage we would have on the block with two bigs who can score some offensively for 48 minutes straight. pound them relentlessly like KG did to Anthony. Do it to bosh also. also you out rebound the heat down low with this. KG, sully and another good one who can block shots and rebound? oh my. That helps the perimeter defenders. has anybody forgot LBJ and DW love to dribble drive? what does a big do if they get by one of our pitbulls? swat that stuff out of there. we are not beating the heat with small ball people. we have very few advantages. we must maximize the ones we have.
Good thing the Thunder had Ibaka and Perkins last year.
wait, so Ibaka played at the 5? really? and he rotated out with Perk? really?
nobody said it was a GUARANTEE regardless. but if you think we are beating them with small ball then I cannot help you. In this whole thread and others i clearly stated we need two FIVES(centers, KG and someone else), who need to ROTATE out to keep a rim/paint presence along with our perimeter defenders. That BIG presence is not just for defense either. It for OFFENSE. Did you not see we were better than the heat at only PG and C last year? DO you not want to maximize that advantage? I am not really sure how you thought Ibaka at the 4 and Perk at the 5, much less not rotating equaled what i was saying. Unless i missed it. Did ibaka play the 5? and did he rotate with perk all game long like that?
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I am pretty sure now with this re-emergence of Lee playing lockdown defense along with Ab we now have enough perimeter D to stop chalmers, miller, traitor, and battier do we not?? I mean everybody talks about how rondo will step it up in the playoffs so that SHOULD give us 3 good perimeter defenders right?
Seems many here miss the advantage we would have on the block with two bigs who can score some offensively for 48 minutes straight. pound them relentlessly like KG did to Anthony. Do it to bosh also. also you out rebound the heat down low with this. KG, sully and another good one who can block shots and rebound? oh my. That helps the perimeter defenders. has anybody forgot LBJ and DW love to dribble drive? what does a big do if they get by one of our pitbulls? swat that stuff out of there. we are not beating the heat with small ball people. we have very few advantages. we must maximize the ones we have.
Good thing the Thunder had Ibaka and Perkins last year.
wait, so Ibaka played at the 5? really? and he rotated out with Perk? really?
nobody said it was a GUARANTEE regardless. but if you think we are beating them with small ball then I cannot help you. In this whole thread and others i clearly stated we need two FIVES(centers, KG and someone else), who need to ROTATE out to keep a rim/paint presence along with our perimeter defenders. That BIG presence is not just for defense either. It for OFFENSE. Did you not see we were better than the heat at only PG and C last year? DO you not want to maximize that advantage? I am not really sure how you thought Ibaka at the 4 and Perk at the 5, much less not rotating equaled what i was saying. Unless i missed it. Did ibaka play the 5? and did he rotate with perk all game long like that?
I'm not disputing that we need to add a big, we have 2 open roster spots after all, I'm disputing your assesment that having these types of centers will be the difference in stopping the Heat.
LeBron destroyed the Thunder despite having arguably the best big 1-2 defensive punch in the league.
Perimeter defense will prove to be much more important to beating the Heat.
Would it be better if we had more big help? Of course, but I'm not sacrificing our perimeter defense to get it. I'll roll the dice with what we can get in the open market, unless a trade is made that really brings someone of significance, and even then the sacrificial lamb should come from our PF logjam.
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I am pretty sure now with this re-emergence of Lee playing lockdown defense along with Ab we now have enough perimeter D to stop chalmers, miller, traitor, and battier do we not?? I mean everybody talks about how rondo will step it up in the playoffs so that SHOULD give us 3 good perimeter defenders right?
Seems many here miss the advantage we would have on the block with two bigs who can score some offensively for 48 minutes straight. pound them relentlessly like KG did to Anthony. Do it to bosh also. also you out rebound the heat down low with this. KG, sully and another good one who can block shots and rebound? oh my. That helps the perimeter defenders. has anybody forgot LBJ and DW love to dribble drive? what does a big do if they get by one of our pitbulls? swat that stuff out of there. we are not beating the heat with small ball people. we have very few advantages. we must maximize the ones we have.
Good thing the Thunder had Ibaka and Perkins last year.
wait, so Ibaka played at the 5? really? and he rotated out with Perk? really?
nobody said it was a GUARANTEE regardless. but if you think we are beating them with small ball then I cannot help you. In this whole thread and others i clearly stated we need two FIVES(centers, KG and someone else), who need to ROTATE out to keep a rim/paint presence along with our perimeter defenders. That BIG presence is not just for defense either. It for OFFENSE. Did you not see we were better than the heat at only PG and C last year? DO you not want to maximize that advantage? I am not really sure how you thought Ibaka at the 4 and Perk at the 5, much less not rotating equaled what i was saying. Unless i missed it. Did ibaka play the 5? and did he rotate with perk all game long like that?
I'm not disputing that we need to add a big, we have 2 open roster spots after all, I'm disputing your assesment that having these types of centers will be the difference in stopping the Heat.
LeBron destroyed the Thunder despite having arguably the best big 1-2 defensive punch in the league.
Perimeter defense will prove to be much more important to beating the Heat.
Would it be better if we had more big help? Of course, but I'm not sacrificing our perimeter defense to get it. I'll roll the dice with what we can get in the open market, unless a trade is made that really brings someone of significance, and even then the sacrificial lamb should come from our PF logjam.
The key isn't big who is good defensively. As long as they play solid defense as a C, the Celtics will be good.
The key is a big man that can score in the low post. Someone Bosh can't defend down low that forces the Heat to play bigger.
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I am pretty sure now with this re-emergence of Lee playing lockdown defense along with Ab we now have enough perimeter D to stop chalmers, miller, traitor, and battier do we not?? I mean everybody talks about how rondo will step it up in the playoffs so that SHOULD give us 3 good perimeter defenders right?
Seems many here miss the advantage we would have on the block with two bigs who can score some offensively for 48 minutes straight. pound them relentlessly like KG did to Anthony. Do it to bosh also. also you out rebound the heat down low with this. KG, sully and another good one who can block shots and rebound? oh my. That helps the perimeter defenders. has anybody forgot LBJ and DW love to dribble drive? what does a big do if they get by one of our pitbulls? swat that stuff out of there. we are not beating the heat with small ball people. we have very few advantages. we must maximize the ones we have.
Good thing the Thunder had Ibaka and Perkins last year.
wait, so Ibaka played at the 5? really? and he rotated out with Perk? really?
nobody said it was a GUARANTEE regardless. but if you think we are beating them with small ball then I cannot help you. In this whole thread and others i clearly stated we need two FIVES(centers, KG and someone else), who need to ROTATE out to keep a rim/paint presence along with our perimeter defenders. That BIG presence is not just for defense either. It for OFFENSE. Did you not see we were better than the heat at only PG and C last year? DO you not want to maximize that advantage? I am not really sure how you thought Ibaka at the 4 and Perk at the 5, much less not rotating equaled what i was saying. Unless i missed it. Did ibaka play the 5? and did he rotate with perk all game long like that?
I'm not disputing that we need to add a big, we have 2 open roster spots after all, I'm disputing your assesment that having these types of centers will be the difference in stopping the Heat.
LeBron destroyed the Thunder despite having arguably the best big 1-2 defensive punch in the league.
Perimeter defense will prove to be much more important to beating the Heat.
Would it be better if we had more big help? Of course, but I'm not sacrificing our perimeter defense to get it. I'll roll the dice with what we can get in the open market, unless a trade is made that really brings someone of significance, and even then the sacrificial lamb should come from our PF logjam.
The key isn't big who is good defensively. As long as they play solid defense as a C, the Celtics will be good.
The key is a big man that can score in the low post. Someone Bosh can't defend down low that forces the Heat to play bigger.
yep. hopefully Kg or the new guy i hope we acquire will be able to handle boshtrich down low and then we can witness joel anthony get destroyed again by the other guy we use. we really need to use that advantage this year and make them pay dearly for it.
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yes they have... maybe is not as big. or unsolvable orhowever y say that