Jazz (39-22) at Celtics (42-19) Game #62 3/6/20

[ozgod]

Sooo, is this pretty much what every game the rest of the season is going to be like? One or two key players out each game (even in the playoffs)? Guys playing hurt, playing weird minutes and odd rotations? The team hanging around but coming up short, even at home?

I have a feeling that players are being held out with minor niggling injuries out of an abundance of caution, so that when we do get to the playoffs, whether it's 2nd, 3rd or 4th seed, that they will all be as healthy as they can be. If a playoff win was at stake I'm sure Hayward would have played, and probably Brown.

I think Brad and the brains trust care less about getting 2nd, 3rd or even 4th seed as much as making sure everyone important is healthy and able to play major minutes in the playoffs. I've always felt that fans care more about the difference between 2 and 3 seed more than the coaches and the team have. They probably don't see it as important as we do. End of day you have to beat whoever is in front of you to win. To be the best you have to beat the best. Unless the goal is to just get past the 1st round or just get to the ECF.

Just as long as they are playing their best basketball when it comes to playoff time, and everyone is relatively healthy then, I'll be happy.

[RockinRyA]

I missed the game again, from the box score looks like it was a close one. Smart with 15 3pt attempts, I have to watch the game so I will assume they were there to be taken.

Again just looking at the box score, Utah's starters all had on average -20ish plus minus while their bench all had +20ish. It was the reverse for our team. Wanamaker -25, ouch.

Any positives we can take from the game? And who's the pinata tonight?

Pinata is definitely Wanamaker. 2 wide open airballs, one was a layup ****.

Positives- Theis is really solid and Ojeleye gave us solid minutes again.

[ozgod]

Hello! First post here. Needed to move on from the Celtics realgm forum, hoping this place is a better fit!

Ugly game so far. This team is so inconsistent. Tatum has settled back down these last few games.

TP for your first post, CS on a loss isn't probably the best first impression for you but if you come back tomorrow you'll find all the people who have lost their heads over defeat have regained them. 

[ozgod]

I missed the game again, from the box score looks like it was a close one. Smart with 15 3pt attempts, I have to watch the game so I will assume they were there to be taken.

Again just looking at the box score, Utah's starters all had on average -20ish plus minus while their bench all had +20ish. It was the reverse for our team. Wanamaker -25, ouch.

Any positives we can take from the game? And who's the pinata tonight?

Pinata is definitely Wanamaker. 2 wide open airballs, one was a layup ****.

Positives- Theis is really solid and Ojeleye gave us solid minutes again.

I figured Wanamaker for the pinata, just wanted to make sure 

TP for the update, glad to hear Semi stepping up at least. He's a tried and tested player who we should be able to rely on for minutes in the playoffs. Testament to staying ready even if you haven't played in a while as the coach tries different players out.

[RockinRyA]

I missed the game again, from the box score looks like it was a close one. Smart with 15 3pt attempts, I have to watch the game so I will assume they were there to be taken.

Again just looking at the box score, Utah's starters all had on average -20ish plus minus while their bench all had +20ish. It was the reverse for our team. Wanamaker -25, ouch.

Any positives we can take from the game? And who's the pinata tonight?

Pinata is definitely Wanamaker. 2 wide open airballs, one was a layup ****.

Positives- Theis is really solid and Ojeleye gave us solid minutes again.

I figured Wanamaker for the pinata, just wanted to make sure 

TP for the update, glad to hear Semi stepping up at least. He's a tried and tested player who we should be able to rely on for minutes in the playoffs. Testament to staying ready even if you haven't played in a while as the coach tries different players out.

Ive been very critical of Ojeleye before esp in his rookie year. He was a good on ball defender who cant shoot, cant pass, poor off ball D and most of all, lacking in motor. But now he is shooting well, defensing well, takes charges, gets deflections and loose ball. Very useful player off the bench. And most importantly, wont complain about role, shots or minutes.p

[RockinRyA]

Hahahhahahahah great job with the bench Ainge! Have to put buns out there like Wanamaker.  Basically screwed the The 2nd seed and beyond by having a weak inexperienced bench. How many games will it cost this team? How will it show up in the playoffs? Great job Ainge! Keep living off the Garnett trade.

I agree that Ainge shouldve shored up our bench somehow. But to insinuate that he is a bad GM who just got lucky due to the KG trade in 07 is just plain stupid. The mere fact that we are fighting for 2nd seed is an indicator that he isnt a bad GM.

Ainge is a great GM but he needs to get his hands out of his pockets.

Great GM? One championship in almost 20 years and he’s great? Has he done some good things? Absolutely but he has also failed in the draft plenty of times and by sitting on his hands with these “assets” that aren’t amounting to anything. Keep stock piling draft picks and drafting average to below average talent. People complaining about Brad playing Wanamaker? I hate to break it to you but he’s a key piece of their bench right now lol. Thanks to Ainge.
Ainge has wasted this season. Hayward gets hurt every other game. He knew Kemba is going to to be dealing with a knee injury for the rest of the year. So yea just stand pat and rely on guys like Wanamaker, Edwards, Langford, Semi ect... yes let’s talk about how great Ainge is because of 2008.

Its very hard to win multiple championships nowadays. This isnt like before where there were only a few teams and the cap is easier to manage (luxury tax effect). This is why even the Warriors despite their salary luck had trouble adding talent. Guys like Morey didnt have one, neither did West recently. The Cavs didnt have a good GM, but won. Why? Luck. They had multiple 1st overall picks, plus a superstar willing to play for them and most of all above average health. We wouldve had multiple championship if KG didnt get injured, and same with Shaq (we were dominating the league before he went down). The Warriors with that all-star lineup couldnt win last year because of injuries.

No, championship isn't the only way to judge how good a GM is. Don't be narrowminded.

[Somebody]

Hahahhahahahah great job with the bench Ainge! Have to put buns out there like Wanamaker.  Basically screwed the The 2nd seed and beyond by having a weak inexperienced bench. How many games will it cost this team? How will it show up in the playoffs? Great job Ainge! Keep living off the Garnett trade.

I agree that Ainge shouldve shored up our bench somehow. But to insinuate that he is a bad GM who just got lucky due to the KG trade in 07 is just plain stupid. The mere fact that we are fighting for 2nd seed is an indicator that he isnt a bad GM.

Ainge is a great GM but he needs to get his hands out of his pockets.

Great GM? One championship in almost 20 years and he’s great? Has he done some good things? Absolutely but he has also failed in the draft plenty of times and by sitting on his hands with these “assets” that aren’t amounting to anything. Keep stock piling draft picks and drafting average to below average talent. People complaining about Brad playing Wanamaker? I hate to break it to you but he’s a key piece of their bench right now lol. Thanks to Ainge.
Ainge has wasted this season. Hayward gets hurt every other game. He knew Kemba is going to to be dealing with a knee injury for the rest of the year. So yea just stand pat and rely on guys like Wanamaker, Edwards, Langford, Semi ect... yes let’s talk about how great Ainge is because of 2008.

Its very hard to win multiple championships nowadays. This isnt like before where there were only a few teams and the cap is easier to manage (luxury tax effect). This is why even the Warriors despite their salary luck had trouble adding talent. Guys like Morey didnt have one, neither did West recently. The Cavs didnt have a good GM, but won. Why? Luck. They had multiple 1st overall picks, plus a superstar willing to play for them and most of all above average health. We wouldve had multiple championship if KG didnt get injured, and same with Shaq (we were dominating the league before he went down). The Warriors with that all-star lineup couldnt win last year because of injuries.

No, championship isn't the only way to judge how good a GM is. Don't be narrowminded.

Wonder where does this logic go when people evaluate players, but TP for the excellent post.

[SparzWizard]

Sooo, is this pretty much what every game the rest of the season is going to be like? One or two key players out each game (even in the playoffs)? Guys playing hurt, playing weird minutes and odd rotations? The team hanging around but coming up short, even at home?

I have a feeling that players are being held out with minor niggling injuries out of an abundance of caution, so that when we do get to the playoffs, whether it's 2nd, 3rd or 4th seed, that they will all be as healthy as they can be. If a playoff win was at stake I'm sure Hayward would have played, and probably Brown.

I think Brad and the brains trust care less about getting 2nd, 3rd or even 4th seed as much as making sure everyone important is healthy and able to play major minutes in the playoffs. I've always felt that fans care more about the difference between 2 and 3 seed more than the coaches and the team have. They probably don't see it as important as we do. End of day you have to beat whoever is in front of you to win. To be the best you have to beat the best. Unless the goal is to just get past the 1st round or just get to the ECF.

Just as long as they are playing their best basketball when it comes to playoff time, and everyone is relatively healthy then, I'll be happy.

Not a good idea to be a 4-seed and having to potentially play the Pacers/76ers in Round 1, followed by the Bucks in East Semis.

[Banner18now!]

Hahahhahahahah great job with the bench Ainge! Have to put buns out there like Wanamaker.  Basically screwed the The 2nd seed and beyond by having a weak inexperienced bench. How many games will it cost this team? How will it show up in the playoffs? Great job Ainge! Keep living off the Garnett trade.

I agree that Ainge shouldve shored up our bench somehow. But to insinuate that he is a bad GM who just got lucky due to the KG trade in 07 is just plain stupid. The mere fact that we are fighting for 2nd seed is an indicator that he isnt a bad GM.

Ainge is a great GM but he needs to get his hands out of his pockets.

Great GM? One championship in almost 20 years and he’s great? Has he done some good things? Absolutely but he has also failed in the draft plenty of times and by sitting on his hands with these “assets” that aren’t amounting to anything. Keep stock piling draft picks and drafting average to below average talent. People complaining about Brad playing Wanamaker? I hate to break it to you but he’s a key piece of their bench right now lol. Thanks to Ainge.
Ainge has wasted this season. Hayward gets hurt every other game. He knew Kemba is going to to be dealing with a knee injury for the rest of the year. So yea just stand pat and rely on guys like Wanamaker, Edwards, Langford, Semi ect... yes let’s talk about how great Ainge is because of 2008.

Its very hard to win multiple championships nowadays. This isnt like before where there were only a few teams and the cap is easier to manage (luxury tax effect). This is why even the Warriors despite their salary luck had trouble adding talent. Guys like Morey didnt have one, neither did West recently. The Cavs didnt have a good GM, but won. Why? Luck. They had multiple 1st overall picks, plus a superstar willing to play for them and most of all above average health. We wouldve had multiple championship if KG didnt get injured, and same with Shaq (we were dominating the league before he went down). The Warriors with that all-star lineup couldnt win last year because of injuries.

No, championship isn't the only way to judge how good a GM is. Don't be narrowminded.

We are talking almost  over a 20 years span. My point is Ainge has only won one championship in that span and people think he is immune to criticism because of that one championship. Sorry I’m not buying the narrative that he’s untouchable. He obviously did a great job with constructing the 08 team. He obviously did a great job trading Garnett & Pierce. But since then he hasn’t done a great job constructing this team. I feel like he has wasted this season by going with an atrocious bench that’s already costing them seeding. And all for what? To hold onto project players and picks that will equal more middle of the road talent? Sorry, Ainge has done a bad job and should be called out for it.

[RockinRyA]

Hahahhahahahah great job with the bench Ainge! Have to put buns out there like Wanamaker.  Basically screwed the The 2nd seed and beyond by having a weak inexperienced bench. How many games will it cost this team? How will it show up in the playoffs? Great job Ainge! Keep living off the Garnett trade.

I agree that Ainge shouldve shored up our bench somehow. But to insinuate that he is a bad GM who just got lucky due to the KG trade in 07 is just plain stupid. The mere fact that we are fighting for 2nd seed is an indicator that he isnt a bad GM.

Ainge is a great GM but he needs to get his hands out of his pockets.

Great GM? One championship in almost 20 years and he’s great? Has he done some good things? Absolutely but he has also failed in the draft plenty of times and by sitting on his hands with these “assets” that aren’t amounting to anything. Keep stock piling draft picks and drafting average to below average talent. People complaining about Brad playing Wanamaker? I hate to break it to you but he’s a key piece of their bench right now lol. Thanks to Ainge.
Ainge has wasted this season. Hayward gets hurt every other game. He knew Kemba is going to to be dealing with a knee injury for the rest of the year. So yea just stand pat and rely on guys like Wanamaker, Edwards, Langford, Semi ect... yes let’s talk about how great Ainge is because of 2008.

Its very hard to win multiple championships nowadays. This isnt like before where there were only a few teams and the cap is easier to manage (luxury tax effect). This is why even the Warriors despite their salary luck had trouble adding talent. Guys like Morey didnt have one, neither did West recently. The Cavs didnt have a good GM, but won. Why? Luck. They had multiple 1st overall picks, plus a superstar willing to play for them and most of all above average health. We wouldve had multiple championship if KG didnt get injured, and same with Shaq (we were dominating the league before he went down). The Warriors with that all-star lineup couldnt win last year because of injuries.

No, championship isn't the only way to judge how good a GM is. Don't be narrowminded.

We are talking almost  over a 20 years span. My point is Ainge has only won one championship in that span and people think he is immune to criticism because of that one championship. Sorry I’m not buying the narrative that he’s untouchable. He obviously did a great job with constructing the 08 team. He obviously did a great job trading Garnett & Pierce. But since then he hasn’t done a great job constructing this team. I feel like he has wasted this season by going with an atrocious bench that’s already costing them seeding. And all for what? To hold onto project players and picks that will equal more middle of the road talent? Sorry, Ainge has done a bad job and should be called out for it.

Again, it is very hard to win multiple championships in a 20 year span nowadays. Did you even read what I just wrote?!

Do you know how the cap and tax work? I bet you don't. The reason we are not having luxury tax problems right now is because of these project player and picks hoarding that Ainge did. We are due for rise in salary next year when Brown's new salary kicks in. Tatum will also need to be extended. Luxury tax and repeater tax are something we might not be able to avoid soon. But RIGHT NOW it is by having these cheap players that we are managing salaries to prepare for the future expenditures. Ainge is operating under guidelines and instructions from the ownership. If the ownership says we have to avoid repeater tax until we are truly ready to compete, he will do so.

This is why some of us understood standing pat at the trade deadline, because by not having a bloated contract it is very hard to make deals. Remember Zeller's overpaid contract before? It was designed specifically so it can be used for salary matching. That's why some are just asking for minor trades, because that is just what is feasible. It didn't happen for reasons, most likely is that it would be an overpay or might mess chemistry. Heck this is why while Ive been clamoring for a bench scorer/shooter, I know that the only option is from buyouts, but even that is hard because again, 1) chemistry 2) no one decent wanted to sign 3) uncertainty 4) salary.

[jambr380]

Hahahhahahahah great job with the bench Ainge! Have to put buns out there like Wanamaker.  Basically screwed the The 2nd seed and beyond by having a weak inexperienced bench. How many games will it cost this team? How will it show up in the playoffs? Great job Ainge! Keep living off the Garnett trade.

I agree that Ainge shouldve shored up our bench somehow. But to insinuate that he is a bad GM who just got lucky due to the KG trade in 07 is just plain stupid. The mere fact that we are fighting for 2nd seed is an indicator that he isnt a bad GM.

Ainge is a great GM but he needs to get his hands out of his pockets.

And do WHAT exactly? You keep banging that drum that Danny should've done something. But have you got even the slightest example of a scenario that is A) realistic and B) legitimately going to have moved the needle?

At this point, any addition to our bench is a plus.

No, it isn't.

Our bench couldn't possibly get any worse with losing one of those guys

Arguably true in isolation, but that means burning out our starters, who are fragile enough as it is right now. If (and it's a big if) we can get them team healthy for the playoffs the bench won't be quite as big of an issue, but it's something that can only be addressed where it will make a real difference in the off season.

Yeah, I get that it may be jumping the shark. But I just am not comfortable with waiting and seeing if they won't be needed in the post season.

Danny's smart enough to know you don't make a move just for the sake of making a move.

Their bench is atrocious so it wouldn’t be making a move for the sake of making a move. How did Philly grab two players without giving anything up who would immediately be the Celtics two best bench players if the played for Boston? People have to stop making excuses for Danny. He has more than likely screwed this team this year unless everyone gets miraculous healthy and no one gets hurt the rest of the way. Good luck with that.

Philly traded guys. Most of our guys are on rookie deals and we dont have a roster spot. I was fine with standing pat on the deadline. but at the least we couldve gotten someone from the buyout market. Green-Wanamaker combo is just that brutal.

Yeah, can't see Green in green next season. While I'm not an expert, I think also it is somehow quite beneficial to stay where we are, salary-wise, until next season to avoid/mitigate repeater taxes as well.

I'm fine with standing pat this season. nobody had legitimate title expectations this season, but our record so far indicates that at least we are in the discussion of being in the race if the stars aligned.

That said, I am fully expecting roster upgrades that address weaknesses identified this year.

It should be noted that we not only need to stay under the luxury tax this season (that is all but official at this point), but also next season. The rule for paying the repeater tax is being in the tax 3 out of 4 years; because we were in it in 17-18 and 18-19, we need another year of staying under or it won't even really matter that we did this season. It's very possible we have another weak bench next season depending on how we handle the Hayward contract situation.

[seancally]

Not sure I see the issue with the bench. When our starters are out, and bench guys need to take on those minutes/roles, they get exposed. They’re not starters. If our team is fully healthy in the playoffs, I bet you never see more than two of Tatum/Brown/Kemba/Hayward/Smart off the floor at any given time. The bench is not exactly a great strength but we have solid guys who can give good minutes when the starters are healthy. What, Ainge is supposed to go out and get starter-caliber bench players, too? After going out and assembling a top-5 starting lineup when we all thought these guys were toast without Horford and Kyrie? Well, we have at least one of those too: Smart could be a starter.

I won’t repeat the points made about money, which are correct: you don’t spend like the warriors unless you know you’ll win like the warriors. Meantime, yeah, when we have 2 starters out and another on a minutes restriction, we’ll have trouble. Find me another team in the league that won’t. LAL/LAC? Denver? Maybe MIL but take out Giannis and Middleton, say, and what’s left? Health is No. 1. Healthy C’s in the playoffs are a finals contender; less than that we’re not.

[nickagneta]

People complain about the bench, but we have a very solid 8 man rotation with Smart, Kanter and Semi as bench contributors. Once the playoffs start, that 8 man lineup with a bit of Williams boys sprinkled in will be just fine.

If that rotation can't win the title, no amount of Danny wheeling and dealing before the trade deadline was going to keep us under the tax this year and make the bench or top 7 players significantly better.

Actually, can someone point out to me the last time a title contender traded for an end of rotation player that was a difference maker to that team winning the title.

[Green-18]

People complain about the bench, but we have a very solid 8 man rotation with Smart, Kanter and Semi as bench contributors. Once the playoffs start, that 8 man lineup with a bit of Williams boys sprinkled in will be just fine.

If that rotation can't win the title, no amount of Danny wheeling and dealing before the trade deadline was going to keep us under the tax this year and make the bench or top 7 players significantly better.

Actually, can someone point out to me the last time a title contender traded for an end of rotation player that was a difference maker to that team winning the title.

My thoughts exactly.  Our core is either good enough or it's not.  It's not like we have a Superstar duo that needs to be surrounded by a deep roster of role players (Lakers).  We are relying on 4 All-Star caliber players and a high end role player.  Each of them will be getting the majority of the touches in the playoffs.  We also need each of them to be healthy in order to truly contend.

I somewhat agree with the lack of depth argument in the context of the regular season.  The difference between the #2 and #3 seed is huge.

[footey]

People complain about the bench, but we have a very solid 8 man rotation with Smart, Kanter and Semi as bench contributors. Once the playoffs start, that 8 man lineup with a bit of Williams boys sprinkled in will be just fine.

If that rotation can't win the title, no amount of Danny wheeling and dealing before the trade deadline was going to keep us under the tax this year and make the bench or top 7 players significantly better.

Actually, can someone point out to me the last time a title contender traded for an end of rotation player that was a difference maker to that team winning the title.

I’m skeptical about Kanter, he just has not been good for a while. Not sure if it’s a lingering injury. Looks awful on D and not able to score or even rebound on O. I expect Rob Williams to take most of his minutes in the playoff rotation. Just injects more energy and presence.