Rondo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wall

[Celtics18]

KungPoweChicke,

What about the assist to turnover ratio? Do you just not care for that stat?

I understand the stat. I just don't see the relevancy or applicability when applying it to Rondo's game. Doesn't he turn down layups to get assists? How many other point guards in the league turn down two layups a game just to get two more assists on the stat sheet? Doesn't Rondo also play with three hall of fame players, who you could argue are three of the best jump shooters at their positions (which makes them perfect for getting assists).

Also, the stat is highly relevant to who your teammates are. However, the free throw percentage stat has no relevancy to who your teammates are. To put it this way, if Rondo were playing for the Wizards not only would he still be shooting 57% from the free throw line, but it is my opinion that he would also be playing with John Wall's assist to turnover ratio.

And for the record, my name is actually KungPoweChicken, but the n gets cut off.

Nice switch to Wall when we were comparing Westbrook and Rondo.  Westbrook gets to pass the ball to Kevin Durant.  With the amount of attention defenses pay to Durant, that should allow Westbrook plenty of opportunities to exploit that for easy assists for dunks to the likes of Serge Ibaka. 

Westbrook is so aggressive going to the hoop that I feel like the assist opportunities should really be there for him on that team. 

This is a tough one because I happen to think that Rajon Rondo is the best passer in the game.  The stats certainly say that he is, but I do get the counter argument that it's only because he gets to throw the ball to Allen, Pierce, and Garnett. 

That's where I turn to the eyeball test.  I see him constantly making more mind-blowingly brilliant passes than anyone else in the game.  Although, I must admit that I don't watch the other top passers like Nash, Paul, and Williams nearly as much, and some might even say that I'm biased. 

[chambers]

Give Wall 2-3 years and he'll leap ahead of Rondo just like Rose and Westbrook have done.

  Westbrook really isn't a better player than Rondo.

Yeah, he is.  He's a statistical twin with Derrick Rose (and Rose doesn't have to share the ball with Kevin Durant). 

Neither Westbrook nor Rose would be as good a fit for this team as Rondo (at his best) is.  However, both Rose and Westbrook are better overall players than Rondo, and all things being equal I'd choose Rose or Westbrook as a core piece ahead of Rondo.

I'm laughing so hard that some people are saying Westbrook is better than Rondo. Better shooter? Yes.
Everything else Rondo >>> Westbrook.
Westbrook is a poor mans Rose.
Shooting guard trapped in a PG's body.
They'll both never be true point guards.

[BballTim]

KungPoweChicke,

What about the assist to turnover ratio? Do you just not care for that stat?

I understand the stat. I just don't see the relevancy or applicability when applying it to Rondo's game. Doesn't he turn down layups to get assists? How many other point guards in the league turn down two layups a game just to get two more assists on the stat sheet? Doesn't Rondo also play with three hall of fame players, who you could argue are three of the best jump shooters at their positions (which makes them perfect for getting assists).

Also, the stat is highly relevant to who your teammates are. However, the free throw percentage stat has no relevancy to who your teammates are. To put it this way, if Rondo were playing for the Wizards not only would he still be shooting 57% from the free throw line, but it is my opinion that he would also be playing with John Wall's assist to turnover ratio.

And for the record, my name is actually KungPoweChicken, but the n gets cut off.

  For the record, Westbrook's assist/turnover ratio is worse than Rondo's was when Rajon was a rookie playing with the likes of Gomes and Gerald Green and Alan Ray. And all point guards "turn down layups to get assists" on occasion.

[BballTim]

Give Wall 2-3 years and he'll leap ahead of Rondo just like Rose and Westbrook have done.

  Westbrook really isn't a better player than Rondo.

Yeah, he is.  He's a statistical twin with Derrick Rose (and Rose doesn't have to share the ball with Kevin Durant). 

Neither Westbrook nor Rose would be as good a fit for this team as Rondo (at his best) is.  However, both Rose and Westbrook are better overall players than Rondo, and all things being equal I'd choose Rose or Westbrook as a core piece ahead of Rondo.

  He's not really the statistical twin of Rose, he turns the ball over more often and isn't a great defender. Less efficient on both ends of the floor.

[BballTim]

Give Wall 2-3 years and he'll leap ahead of Rondo just like Rose and Westbrook have done.

  Westbrook really isn't a better player than Rondo.

Yeah, he is.  He's a statistical twin with Derrick Rose (and Rose doesn't have to share the ball with Kevin Durant).  

Neither Westbrook nor Rose would be as good a fit for this team as Rondo (at his best) is.  However, both Rose and Westbrook are better overall players than Rondo, and all things being equal I'd choose Rose or Westbrook as a core piece ahead of Rondo.

There are 6 or 7 point guards I would choose over Rondo if I were starting an NBA franchise, considering age: Paul, Williams, Wall, Rose, Westbrook, and Curry. Rondo isn't in any of those players leagues as far as overall talent is concerned.  

 You say overall talent but you argue in favor of the opposite. If Rondo is one of the worst outside shooters in your group and the worst ft shooter but one of the best or the best at running an offense, finishing at the rim, rebounding, passing and defending. You call that less overall talent, mainly because you can't differentiate between players for any of those skills. I don't know how you can watch a player as closely as you claim to watch Rondo and be completely oblivious to what he does well.

[BballTim]

Give Wall 2-3 years and he'll leap ahead of Rondo just like Rose and Westbrook have done.

  Westbrook really isn't a better player than Rondo.

Totally agree, (TP), and I'll believe the other when it happens.

What is there to believe? Westbrook is the better all around player. Do you ever sit back and think how flawed of a player Rondo is? He has no offensive game at all. He is a majorly flawed player. What is Westbrook's biggest weakness? You want to hear Rondo's? He's shooting 54% from the line, 24% from 3pt land, and he still cannot hit the most wide open 15 footers any player in the NBA gets.


If you think Rondo is the better overall player than Westbrook, give me a stat of Westbrook's that is as egregious as an NBA point guard shooting 54% from the line.

  You say Rondo has no offensive game at all and yet the Celts offense drops off without Rondo more than OKC's does without Westbrook or Chicago's does without Rose. The other players shoot the ball better when Rondo is in the game. That qualifies as an offensive game for a pass first pg.

[CbrewEra]

This is so easy to say after a win against a sub-par team.
Who does John Wall have to pass to again?
Answer:  Not a line up of future hall of famers. When you can get an assist by simply passing a guy who hits a turn around fade away jumper, those numbers will come easily. 

John Wall will be better than Rondo in neat future, he is a rookie on an awful team. 

[BballTim]

This is so easy to say after a win against a sub-par team.
Who does John Wall have to pass to again?
Answer:  Not a line up of future hall of famers. When you can get an assist by simply passing a guy who hits a turn around fade away jumper, those numbers will come easily. 

John Wall will be better than Rondo in neat future, he is a rookie on an awful team. 

  The same was said about Mike Conley.

[MBz]

Right now, Rondo is better than John Wall.  I think when trying to figure out will become the better player the most important question is how much better will Rondo get?  His defense and passing have been great, but his shooting has not improved since he's been in the league.  This is his 5th season, why would it get better now?  Rondo is great for this team, if you switched him and Derrick Rose or Russell Westbrook, all teams would suffer.  In Chicago, Rose is perfect for that team.  Does he turn the ball over too much? Sure he does, but look at all the good things he does.  Also, you guys must not remember the Paul Pierce of the early 2000's.  He was the exact same way, in 2002-2003, he averaged 3.7 turnovers a game, in 03-04 it was 3.8.  That was what the Celtics needed to do though to have a chance to win.  It's the same way in Chicago and OK City w/ Rose and Westbrook.  It's tough to compare Rondo with those guys because they're different kinds of players.  On this team the true point guard is needed, the guy who will be unselfish and be the #4 option offensively.  Rose needs to be the #1 option, Westbrook needs to be the #2 option.  Sometimes it means they play selfish which results in a few more turnovers, but Chicago is a top 5 team in the league and OK City is a top 10 team in the league so those guys must be doing something right.

[makaveli]

Please, you can't even compare Wall's and Rondo's rookie season. Time will tell who is better, right now it's probably Rondo, but Wall will deavelop into an elite player no doubt

[BballTim]

Right now, Rondo is better than John Wall.  I think when trying to figure out will become the better player the most important question is how much better will Rondo get?  His defense and passing have been great, but his shooting has not improved since he's been in the league.  This is his 5th season, why would it get better now?

  Kind of an aside, but a player's shooting improving in his mid 20s isn't as uncommon as you think it is.

  Also, Rondo takes more 16-23 foot jumpers than the average pg and also makes a slightly higher percentage of them.

[IrishGreen]

John Wall will be the best PG in the NBA in 3 years.

End of.

[Prof. Clutch]

Rondo is better than him now, but it's Wall's first season and I think talent-wise he ultimately has a higher ceiling than Rondo.

[BballTim]

Rondo is better than him now, but it's Wall's first season and I think talent-wise he ultimately has a higher ceiling than Rondo.

  Depends on whether Rondo's jumper gets a little better or not. But having a higher ceiling and reaching it are two different things.

[jambr380]

Right now, Rondo is better than John Wall.  I think when trying to figure out will become the better player the most important question is how much better will Rondo get?  His defense and passing have been great, but his shooting has not improved since he's been in the league.  This is his 5th season, why would it get better now?

  Kind of an aside, but a player's shooting improving in his mid 20s isn't as uncommon as you think it is.

  Also, Rondo takes more 16-23 foot jumpers than the average pg and also makes a slightly higher percentage of them.

It took people a LONG time to respect Jason Kidd's jumpshot. My instinct is to sill think he isn't a good shooter, but then I remember he is one of the all-time leaders in 3-pointers made.

While I agree that Rondo is doing just 'fine', he has to become well above average for at least a few years to shake his reputation. Throw in the fact that he still has kind of an awkward release and an atrocious ft% and we are just not there yet.