Rondo tonight

[BballTim]

Magic Johnson was a god awful, horrible outside shooter for the better part of his first 7-8 years in the league. He didn't shoot over 24% from three point land until he was into his 10th season.

But he worked and worked on it and slowly year in and year out his outside shot got better and his range increase. During Magic's fourth season he was....get this...0 for 21 from three point range and had a assist to turnover ratio of 2.75. Rondo has already hit a three and has an assist to turnover ratio 3,79.

What does that prove? Nothing. But what it does do is so that even the greatest of the great had seriously flaws that they were able to overcome over a long and prosperous career, through hard work and dedication. If there has been anything that has been consistently reported about Rondo is that he has a fantastic dedication and work ethic as well as a desire to get better. He's 23. Give him time, have patience and stop trying to bury the kid every time he and/or the team goes through a slump.

The game is very different. In Magic's 4th season the 3pt attempts was of residual importance. In that season, NBA teams made 0.53 3 pointers per game while playing 103.1 possessions per game shooting them at a .238%. The entire Celtics team made 39 3pt shots. The Lakers went to the Finals hitting 10 triples the entire regular season.

Last season NBA teams shot an average of 18 triples per game, hitting them at a .367 percentage and this playing at a much slower pace - 91.7 possessions per game.

Magic didn't have much incentives to improve his 3pt shot. A guard unable to hit the outside shot would only residually hurt his team. Things today are completely different.

  His three point shooting is just illustrative of his overall outside shooting, which was poor.

Sure, there wasn't much incentive to improve it. If LeBron James was born in 1960 I bet his outside shot would be poor and his post game would be much better than it is.

  Teams didn't take a lot of threes but they did take a decent amount of mid-range and outside jumpers.

[scoop]

Magic Johnson was a god awful, horrible outside shooter for the better part of his first 7-8 years in the league. He didn't shoot over 24% from three point land until he was into his 10th season.

But he worked and worked on it and slowly year in and year out his outside shot got better and his range increase. During Magic's fourth season he was....get this...0 for 21 from three point range and had a assist to turnover ratio of 2.75. Rondo has already hit a three and has an assist to turnover ratio 3,79.

What does that prove? Nothing. But what it does do is so that even the greatest of the great had seriously flaws that they were able to overcome over a long and prosperous career, through hard work and dedication. If there has been anything that has been consistently reported about Rondo is that he has a fantastic dedication and work ethic as well as a desire to get better. He's 23. Give him time, have patience and stop trying to bury the kid every time he and/or the team goes through a slump.

The game is very different. In Magic's 4th season the 3pt attempts was of residual importance. In that season, NBA teams made 0.53 3 pointers per game while playing 103.1 possessions per game shooting them at a .238%. The entire Celtics team made 39 3pt shots. The Lakers went to the Finals hitting 10 triples the entire regular season.

Last season NBA teams shot an average of 18 triples per game, hitting them at a .367 percentage and this playing at a much slower pace - 91.7 possessions per game.

Magic didn't have much incentives to improve his 3pt shot. A guard unable to hit the outside shot would only residually hurt his team. Things today are completely different.

Wow.  I actually didn't believe that stat (39 3's for the C's in 83-84).  My memory failed me.  I think of Bird as such an amazing 3 point shooter, but he never took more than 3 a game in his career. It's strange that the league went away from the 3 that much in 83 - there definitely were more taken the first year it was in play (79-80)

Here are the Celts 82-83 stats

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1983.html

I think the differences are quite negligible (in the first year
many players would attempt shots just for the sake of trying it, it was new - but most teams would still make way less than a triple per game). 3pt made:

80 - .77 per 100 possessions
81 - .49 per 100 possessions
82 - .59 per 100 possessions
83 - .52 per 100 possessions
84 - .58 per 100 possessions

09 - 7.27 per 100 possessions

Just an entirely different game.

[guava_wrench]

he 3 point line was farther away before 1994. Magic would have been shooting an extra 1'9" from the top of the key (though the distance was also 22' in the corners.

The longer line definitely made defense up top easier and also made deep shooting a little less valuable.

[nickagneta]

Magic Johnson was a god awful, horrible outside shooter for the better part of his first 7-8 years in the league. He didn't shoot over 24% from three point land until he was into his 10th season.

But he worked and worked on it and slowly year in and year out his outside shot got better and his range increase. During Magic's fourth season he was....get this...0 for 21 from three point range and had a assist to turnover ratio of 2.75. Rondo has already hit a three and has an assist to turnover ratio 3,79.

What does that prove? Nothing. But what it does do is so that even the greatest of the great had seriously flaws that they were able to overcome over a long and prosperous career, through hard work and dedication. If there has been anything that has been consistently reported about Rondo is that he has a fantastic dedication and work ethic as well as a desire to get better. He's 23. Give him time, have patience and stop trying to bury the kid every time he and/or the team goes through a slump.

The game is very different. In Magic's 4th season the 3pt attempts was of residual importance. In that season, NBA teams made 0.53 3 pointers per game while playing 103.1 possessions per game shooting them at a .238%. The entire Celtics team made 39 3pt shots. The Lakers went to the Finals hitting 10 triples the entire regular season.

Last season NBA teams shot an average of 18 triples per game, hitting them at a .367 percentage and this playing at a much slower pace - 91.7 possessions per game.

Magic didn't have much incentives to improve his 3pt shot. A guard unable to hit the outside shot would only residually hurt his team. Things today are completely different.

Wow.  I actually didn't believe that stat (39 3's for the C's in 83-84).  My memory failed me.  I think of Bird as such an amazing 3 point shooter, but he never took more than 3 a game in his career. It's strange that the league went away from the 3 that much in 83 - there definitely were more taken the first year it was in play (79-80)

Here are the Celts 82-83 stats

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1983.html

I think the differences are quite negligible (in the first year
many players would attempt shots just for the sake of trying it, it was new - but most teams would still make way less than a triple per game). 3pt made:

80 - .77 per 100 possessions
81 - .49 per 100 possessions
82 - .59 per 100 possessions
83 - .52 per 100 possessions
84 - .58 per 100 possessions

09 - 7.27 per 100 possessions

Just an entirely different game.

You aren't getting the point.

The point is that in Magic's fourth season he was a bad outside shooter....like Rondo is today. There were no 82games.com with specific stats for outside jump shots, close shots, dunks, etc. There were stats for FG% and thre point FG%. Magic's FG%, like Rondo's currently is, was exceptional, constantly around 55%. That does not, however, mean he was a good outside shooter. He wasn't.

I chose the 3PTFG% to show just how bad he was from outside because it was the only matrix available. And as much as Magic only threw up 21 three's that year and the shot was not a prevalent part of the game, Rondo, in an era were the shot is very prevalent, is only on pace to shoot 40. Heck in his three years he only averages shooting 32 per year which is only slightly more than what Magic shot that particular year. So the three point stats has much more relevance than what you are ripping it apart for.

Facts are facts. Rondo, like Magic was at a similar stage in his career, is a poor outside shooter. He is almost a non-existent threat to hit a three pointer, though at a similar stage, he is much better at it than Magic was. Both are/were guards that work best in a fast transition game with the ball in their hands looking to create and dish and both are/were great rebounders for their position. Both also have very well noted off season work ethics, work regimens, and a desire to get better.

It's for these reasons that I brought up Magic. I think Rondo has the chance to eventually become a good outside shooter. It will take hard work and lots of time but at 23 years old, time he has plenty of. Be patient people.

[vinnie]

If Rond0 was 6-9 and could post people up in the paint all day long, as Magic could, then I wouldn't really care that much about his outside shot. Also should point out that in his fourth year, Magic shot 55 percent from the floor and 80 percent from the line and took 380 free throws. We all know about Rondo's free throw shooting woes, and at the current rate, he will take about 140 free throws this year. You cannot even compare Magic Johnson and Rondo because they were two different players with vastly different bodies and styles of play.

[Tr1boy]

who cares about three point shooting nick. The problem with Rondo is his inability to shoot anything period currently. His release point is not consistant and form is flawed.

Also what is the point of teaching him good form right now when i'm sure he was taught to try it , it didn't work for him and now uses a flawed form anyways?

He needs to try other types of forms flawed or not in my opinion.

BTW magic was a unique player even without a good shot. His height and capability to play three positions had other teams guessing constantly. He also was a real good post player

Rondo is non of these things. He is a pg and without a shot when his speed dials down a bit (about late 20's , early 30's) every teams strategy will be to lay off rondo and dare him to shoot.

[nickagneta]

If Rond0 was 6-9 and could post people up in the paint all day long, as Magic could, then I wouldn't really care that much about his outside shot. Also should point out that in his fourth year, Magic shot 55 percent from the floor and 80 percent from the line and took 380 free throws. We all know about Rondo's free throw shooting woes, and at the current rate, he will take about 140 free throws this year. You cannot even compare Magic Johnson and Rondo because they were two different players with vastly different bodies and styles of play.

You guys are just not getting the point. I really can't understand why this is so hard to digest.

Rondo isn't a good shooter. But neither was the universally hailed greatest PG of all time through much of his early years.

Magic got better year by year by year until by the time he was in his 30's, he was a very good outside shooter.

Right now, Rondo, like Magic was at the same time in their careers, is a bad outside shooter. He can and I believe will get better. Will it be next week or next month? NO! But because he works hard and is committed to getting better, much like Magic was, I think years from now he will be a good shooter.

YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!

It took the best PG of all time almost a decade to go from a bad shooter to a good shooter from outside. NOT JUST THREES BUT FROM OUTSIDE!!! A DECADE!!!

Rondo will get better. He will probably be better at the end of the year than he is now, like Baby was last year. How much? Who knows. Buy I think he will get better.

I bring up Magic to point out that being a bad shooting PG that does a lot of other things good doesn't mean you have to stay that way forever. Games can transform and weaknesses can become strengths. But it takes time and patience.

Apparently some here don't have the patience to wait for their 23 year old starting PG to develop this shot. They would rather just rip him apart now.

[Kiorrik]

YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!

It took the best PG of all time almost a decade to go from a bad shooter to a good shooter from outside. NOT JUST THREES BUT FROM OUTSIDE!!! A DECADE!!!

Quoted for realism.

This is what it is guys. Live with it.

[scoop]

You aren't getting the point.

The point is that in Magic's fourth season he was a bad outside shooter....like Rondo is today. There were no 82games.com with specific stats for outside jump shots, close shots, dunks, etc. There were stats for FG% and thre point FG%. Magic's FG%, like Rondo's currently is, was exceptional, constantly around 55%. That does not, however, mean he was a good outside shooter. He wasn't.

I chose the 3PTFG% to show just how bad he was from outside because it was the only matrix available. And as much as Magic only threw up 21 three's that year and the shot was not a prevalent part of the game, Rondo, in an era were the shot is very prevalent, is only on pace to shoot 40. Heck in his three years he only averages shooting 32 per year which is only slightly more than what Magic shot that particular year. So the three point stats has much more relevance than what you are ripping it apart for.

Facts are facts. Rondo, like Magic was at a similar stage in his career, is a poor outside shooter. He is almost a non-existent threat to hit a three pointer, though at a similar stage, he is much better at it than Magic was. Both are/were guards that work best in a fast transition game with the ball in their hands looking to create and dish and both are/were great rebounders for their position. Both also have very well noted off season work ethics, work regimens, and a desire to get better.

It's for these reasons that I brought up Magic. I think Rondo has the chance to eventually become a good outside shooter. It will take hard work and lots of time but at 23 years old, time he has plenty of. Be patient people.

I'm getting the point, the problem is that the point isn't a very good one: the reason why Magic was such a bad shooter was because he had little incentives to be a better one until later in his career - outside shooting wasn't really that important. He was a good FT shooter because that was important. 

With Rondo the situation is different: outside shooting is extremely important these days.

What I'm saying, to phrase it in a way easier to understand, is that most probably Magic wouldn't take a decade to develop his outside jumper if he was playing today - he'd have made it a priority when he was still in college. The way players develop their skill-sets is based on the incentives the way the game is played imposes. That's why these days there are, relatively to 20 years ago, few players with good low post skills - the current game isn't conductive to that style of playing - but more and more bigs able to shoot from the outside.

People used to compare Rondo to Tony Parker, who also entered the league about the same age without a jump-shot and became an average/solid shooter. Unfortunately, that comparison is looking worse by the day: Parker was a much better shooter in his 4th season than Rondo is today. So I understand the need to find a more suitable benchmark that can somehow boost one's optimism. Someone playing in a completely different era like Magic doesn't do the trick.

I've heard and read mixed reviews about Rondo's work ethic, so I remain agnostic on that issue.

[Vermont Green]

YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!

It took the best PG of all time almost a decade to go from a bad shooter to a good shooter from outside. NOT JUST THREES BUT FROM OUTSIDE!!! A DECADE!!!

Quoted for realism.

This is what it is guys. Live with it.

Magic was never as bad a shooter as Rondo has been this year so the starting points on this hypothetical "career path curve" are not the same.  It is also necessary to make the assumption that just because Magic Johnson improved his outside shot then ergo Rondo will also.  That just doesn't hold up.

I think Rondo is very competitive and hard working and I believe that he will find a way to improve and hit the shots that he is being dared to take right now (no one every left Magic open and dared him to take mid range shots btw).  I don't think he will catch up with Magic though.  Until he does develop a reliable shot, I believe he is hurting the team (due to the sagging defense that can be employed) more than is generally being recognized.

[nickagneta]

You aren't getting the point.

The point is that in Magic's fourth season he was a bad outside shooter....like Rondo is today. There were no 82games.com with specific stats for outside jump shots, close shots, dunks, etc. There were stats for FG% and thre point FG%. Magic's FG%, like Rondo's currently is, was exceptional, constantly around 55%. That does not, however, mean he was a good outside shooter. He wasn't.

I chose the 3PTFG% to show just how bad he was from outside because it was the only matrix available. And as much as Magic only threw up 21 three's that year and the shot was not a prevalent part of the game, Rondo, in an era were the shot is very prevalent, is only on pace to shoot 40. Heck in his three years he only averages shooting 32 per year which is only slightly more than what Magic shot that particular year. So the three point stats has much more relevance than what you are ripping it apart for.

Facts are facts. Rondo, like Magic was at a similar stage in his career, is a poor outside shooter. He is almost a non-existent threat to hit a three pointer, though at a similar stage, he is much better at it than Magic was. Both are/were guards that work best in a fast transition game with the ball in their hands looking to create and dish and both are/were great rebounders for their position. Both also have very well noted off season work ethics, work regimens, and a desire to get better.

It's for these reasons that I brought up Magic. I think Rondo has the chance to eventually become a good outside shooter. It will take hard work and lots of time but at 23 years old, time he has plenty of. Be patient people.

I'm getting the point, the problem is that the point isn't a very good one: the reason why Magic was such a bad shooter was because he had little incentives to be a better one until later in his career - outside shooting wasn't really that important. He was a good FT shooter because that was important. 

With Rondo the situation is different: outside shooting is extremely important these days.

What I'm saying, to phrase it in a way easier to understand, is that most probably Magic wouldn't take a decade to develop his outside jumper if he was playing today - he'd have made it a priority when he was still in college. The way players develop their skill-sets is based on the incentives the way the game is played imposes. That's why these days there are, relatively to 20 years ago, few players with good low post skills - the current game isn't conductive to that style of playing - but more and more bigs able to shoot from the outside.

People used to compare Rondo to Tony Parker, who also entered the league about the same age without a jump-shot and became an average/solid shooter. Unfortunately, that comparison is looking worse by the day: Parker was a much better shooter in his 4th season than Rondo is today. So I understand the need to find a more suitable benchmark that can somehow boost one's optimism. Someone playing in a completely different era like Magic doesn't do the trick.

I've heard and read mixed reviews about Rondo's work ethic, so I remain agnostic on that issue.

Oh please....

You really aren't getting the point.

It wouldn't take Magic as long to learn to shoot better outside? And you know this how exactly? You are friends of Magic and know exactly how much he did or didn't work on trying to become a better shooter? You now how well he took to coaching for his outside shooting? You are familiar with just how much Magic had control over his body to adjust it to shoot better?

The game is different but outside shooting has always been a significant part of the game. The only difference is that with the advent of the three point shot becoming bigger weapon, players today have stepped out the extra 2-4 feet to get the three pointer. Outside shooting was very prevalent and important during the 70's and 80's. The difference is the player were shooting from 19-22 feet and not from 23 feet and beyond.

What I am trying to say is that even the best of players takes years and years to develop an outside shot if they started out with a poor outside shot. It took Magic a decade to do it. It could take Rondo just as long.

[nickagneta]

YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!

It took the best PG of all time almost a decade to go from a bad shooter to a good shooter from outside. NOT JUST THREES BUT FROM OUTSIDE!!! A DECADE!!!

Quoted for realism.

This is what it is guys. Live with it.

Magic was never as bad a shooter as Rondo has been this year so the starting points on this hypothetical "career path curve" are not the same.  It is also necessary to make the assumption that just because Magic Johnson improved his outside shot then ergo Rondo will also.  That just doesn't hold up.

I think Rondo is very competitive and hard working and I believe that he will find a way to improve and hit the shots that he is being dared to take right now (no one every left Magic open and dared him to take mid range shots btw).  I don't think he will catch up with Magic though.  Until he does develop a reliable shot, I believe he is hurting the team (due to the sagging defense that can be employed) more than is generally being recognized.

Actually man to man defenses were in effect back then and the zone defenses that are in play today weren't allowed, so it was actually illegal to sit near the paint and dare a player to shoot from deep. But, what players did do was try to force the outside shot from Magic rather than allow him penetration because shooting was the weakest part of his game. Especially in the early 80's.

[BballTim]

YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!

It took the best PG of all time almost a decade to go from a bad shooter to a good shooter from outside. NOT JUST THREES BUT FROM OUTSIDE!!! A DECADE!!!

Quoted for realism.

This is what it is guys. Live with it.

Magic was never as bad a shooter as Rondo has been this year so the starting points on this hypothetical "career path curve" are not the same.  It is also necessary to make the assumption that just because Magic Johnson improved his outside shot then ergo Rondo will also.  That just doesn't hold up.

I think Rondo is very competitive and hard working and I believe that he will find a way to improve and hit the shots that he is being dared to take right now (no one every left Magic open and dared him to take mid range shots btw).  I don't think he will catch up with Magic though.  Until he does develop a reliable shot, I believe he is hurting the team (due to the sagging defense that can be employed) more than is generally being recognized.

  Defenses did sag way off Magic when he wasn't in the paint and didn't have the ball, and they sagged off of DJ as well.

[Vermont Green]

  Defenses did sag way off Magic when he wasn't in the paint and didn't have the ball, and they sagged off of DJ as well.

I get your point but I still say that Magic and certainly DJ were far better outside shooters at any point than Rondo has been lately.  Back in the day, teams would sag off DJ and when it really mattered, he would hit the shots.  I just don't have that same feeling with Rondo.  I am pulling for him to get this figured out but I don't expect he will ever shoot as well as Magic or DJ.

[scoop]

Oh please....

You really aren't getting the point.

It wouldn't take Magic as long to learn to shoot better outside? And you know this how exactly? You are friends of Magic and know exactly how much he did or didn't work on trying to become a better shooter? You now how well he took to coaching for his outside shooting? You are familiar with just how much Magic had control over his body to adjust it to shoot better?

The game is different but outside shooting has always been a significant part of the game. The only difference is that with the advent of the three point shot becoming bigger weapon, players today have stepped out the extra 2-4 feet to get the three pointer. Outside shooting was very prevalent and important during the 70's and 80's. The difference is the player were shooting from 19-22 feet and not from 23 feet and beyond.

What I am trying to say is that even the best of players takes years and years to develop an outside shot if they started out with a poor outside shot. It took Magic a decade to do it. It could take Rondo just as long.

Because the incentives were different, hence the developmental path for players is different; there's no need to be friends with Magic. Magic had a competent enough middle-range game - and, more importantly, the skill-set he had was much more productive with those days rules.  

The problem is that if it takes a decade for Rondo to improve his shot (to even bellow-average levels for a NBA guard - say to the point where Tony Parker was in his 4th season) he'll never be able to justify his current contract. If he was playing in the 80s, sure (assuming he could deal well with handchecking); in the current game, nope.