I just can't shake the feeling the Celtics org. was asleep at the wheel

[RockinRyA]

They didn’t steal Horford, they just offered more money than the Celtics were  willing to pay. Seriously after getting Kemba it’s back to pessimism in Celticsblog now?

Yes, Horford leaving may not have been preventable. However, my larger point still stands that they allowed themselves to be held hostage by the Kyrie and Davis situations when the outcomes of those should have been clear to anyone paying attention. I mean, they are in the league and they have to know much more than we do. They know these players, their own players especially and they should have had an inkling this might happen.

I'll give them credit for singing Kemba, but as I said it seemed reactive, not proactive. If what I'm speculating is in fact not true, then they needed to better control the narrative in the media. It wasn't a great look to have "Kyrie is ghosting us" out there. It wasn't a good look to make it seem like we had all our eggs in the Davis basket if they weren't truly going to put a big boy offer out there. It looked like they were scrambling today when all of a sudden this "sign and trade to keep Horford" came out only for it to come out a few hours later Horford had already decided he was leaving regardless.

I'm not sure that they had their eggs in the Davis basket, at least not after it was made clear to them he was going to be a rental. At the deadline last year I don't know if they knew that which was why they kept their powder dry. I do agree that they needed to do something to fix the team last season, not because of AD trade but because it looked like the chemistry was shot. But the Celtics were up and down all season, maybe they thought they would pull out when playoffs came.

As for the news, all kinds of news comes out during free agency, some of true some of it not. And some news never makes the light of day. How would controlling the media narrative have changed the outcomes? Kyrie was determined to leave, AD was determined to be a rental, and we didn't want to pay Al. The sign and trade thing with Al was a journalist speculating about how to keep him.

As for comments about players, I was under the impression they weren't allowed to make any. I could be wrong though.

It just appears as if they put big bets on a lot of extremely unlikely things happening. They thought the team might still pull it together, it didn't. They underestimated the chemistry issues and overestimated what Hayward might bring when they threw out the "we stayed pat at the trade deadline because we think Hayward is already our big addition" stuff out there. They seemed to still believe a Davis acquisition would change Kyrie's mind. To a lesser extent, they kept Rozier around this whole time as "insurance" that they didn't even end up using, while he helped poison the team with his sour attitude.

It just seems like they were resigned to letting everything play out as it has instead of trying to get ahead of the curve before it happened. Kemba was a nice move, but they're still left with an overall weaker team and the biggest loss is Horford. To be honest, PG is not the hardest position to fill. Versatile PFs who can shoot and defend both in the paint and out to the perimeter is 10x harder.

You are assuming that there were better moves available back then. There wasn't.

You are right, its harder to fill the Bigs position than the guard position. But I'd rather have an all-star guard than an above average player who fits a need.

[obnoxiousmime]

To be clear, I'm not outright bashing the team. A lot of things happened they should have predicted and perhaps acted ahead of time, some things they could not have foreseen. Clearly, they thought they had Horford secure even though he was slated to be a free agent and as we all know, anything can happen in free agency.

The Lakers winning the fourth overall pick was unfortunate, though I don't think it was a deciding factor in the AD trade. The Celtics losing every possible coin flip and not getting the Memphis pick early didn't help either.

The Durant and Thompson injuries emboldening teams to make win-now moves also seemed to surprise the Celtics when it came to Horford getting lots of interest around the league and the Lakers being willing to make a godfather offer for Davis.

[ederson]

You can always claim that for every team. You can not be proactive always. Things change every minute.

The important thing is to be flexible and change your strategy on the fly.

I am more satisfied that we don't do any rushed moves more than maybe missing a chance.

[PhoSita]

I really don't see this argument, at all.


The Celts' play was signing Horford summer 2016, then following that up with Hayward and trading IT for Kyrie summer 2017.


The contention plan was -- be really good with Kyrie, Hayward, Horford, then trade the proceeds of the BRK trade to get AD.  AD would want to be in Boston because Boston would already have 3 All-Stars and they would be really, really good.

Kyrie, Hayward, Horford and AD was supposed to be the group that would win the next Celtics title.


Unfortunately it didn't work out that way, for a number of reasons.  But reason #1 is probably Gordon Hayward's ankle injury. 

It goes without saying, that was completely unforeseeable.



Now the team has to move on.  Plan B is not so terrible.  Kemba is a really nice Kyrie replacement.  A downgrade in talent and an upgrade in fit and leadership.


Horford is gone, which means the team is significantly worse.  But Rozier and Morris are gone, as well, which means the offense will probably look a lot more like what Brad wants.  Which means the team will be more enjoyable to watch and less predictable against quality opponents. 


The fall back plan really comes down to Jay & Jay.  Horford leaving, Kemba coming, neither of those things really change that.


The path to contention right now is for Tatum to turn into a Paul George caliber star wing and for Jaylen Brown to become an elite two way player, if not a no-doubt All-Star.

What are the chances of that happening?  Probably not super high.  But most contention plans are low probability.


Maybe that Grizz pick becomes a top 3 pick a couple years from now and turns into a franchise talent.  Probably not.


If Tatum and Brown are not on track to become All-Star talents by 2-3 years from now, then the Celts will be in a rough spot.  That will be total rebuild time, and it will probably mean a complete revamp and at least one true tanking year. 



The Celts had the year from hell and still have a pretty decent fall-back plan that has a plausible if not probable path to the Celts being a contender 2-3 years from now. 

That's not an accident.  The Celts know what they're doing.  They just can't perform magic tricks or see the future.

[Androslav]

I really think that we have been proactive, pivoting from Kyrie in a matter of hours.
I don't get this thread at all.

[bopna]

They tried to hang on to Al.. What more do you want... Geez.

Kyrie is gone who cares about him.. We will win more games than Brooklyn.. Book it.

Yes we still are a enter away from being a top 4 team in the East again.. But Danny is certainly not done yet.. Let's just revisit this thread at the end of September OK.

[BitterJim]

They didn’t steal Horford, they just offered more money than the Celtics were  willing to pay. Seriously after getting Kemba it’s back to pessimism in Celticsblog now?

Yes, Horford leaving may not have been preventable. However, my larger point still stands that they allowed themselves to be held hostage by the Kyrie and Davis situations when the outcomes of those should have been clear to anyone paying attention. I mean, they are in the league and they have to know much more than we do. They know these players, their own players especially and they should have had an inkling this might happen.

I'll give them credit for signing Kemba, but as I said it seemed reactive, not proactive. If what I'm speculating is in fact not true, then they needed to better control the narrative in the media. It wasn't a great look to have "Kyrie is ghosting us" out there. It wasn't a good look to make it seem like we had all our eggs in the Davis basket if they weren't truly going to put a big boy offer out there. It looked like they were scrambling today when all of a sudden this "sign and trade to keep Horford" came out only for it to come out a few hours later Horford had already decided he was leaving regardless.

It seems like the team already realized there was no way they were going to pay Horford enough to keep him in Boston. The sign and trade stuff is to keep us as an above-the-cap team amd give up the full MLE plus the Biannual Exception

The issues seems to be (in all these matters) that you let some rumors get your hopes way up, and now are taking it out on the organization for them not "accomplishing" them (even though, in several of those cases, the team moved on well before the media/fans did)

[bopna]

They didn’t steal Horford, they just offered more money than the Celtics were  willing to pay. Seriously after getting Kemba it’s back to pessimism in Celticsblog now?

Yes, Horford leaving may not have been preventable. However, my larger point still stands that they allowed themselves to be held hostage by the Kyrie and Davis situations when the outcomes of those should have been clear to anyone paying attention. I mean, they are in the league and they have to know much more than we do. They know these players, their own players especially and they should have had an inkling this might happen.

I'll give them credit for signing Kemba, but as I said it seemed reactive, not proactive. If what I'm speculating is in fact not true, then they needed to better control the narrative in the media. It wasn't a great look to have "Kyrie is ghosting us" out there. It wasn't a good look to make it seem like we had all our eggs in the Davis basket if they weren't truly going to put a big boy offer out there. It looked like they were scrambling today when all of a sudden this "sign and trade to keep Horford" came out only for it to come out a few hours later Horford had already decided he was leaving regardless.

I am with obnoxious on this one. Danny got played by the malcontent BIG TIME.

In hindsight of course its easy to say Danny should have traded the Malcontent at the deadline... But had that happened many here on CB would call for Danny's head, Kyrie was such an important cog and FI ding out first what they can do in the POs was the priority then.. Now its easy to say things because of what transpired.

Danny's hands were tied and certainly if we had advanced further then all would have been well but the Malcontent mailed it, and along the way burned too many Bridges with fans, teammates and management.

[RockinRyA]

To be clear, I'm not outright bashing the team. A lot of things happened they should have predicted and perhaps acted ahead of time, some things they could not have foreseen. Clearly, they thought they had Horford secure even though he was slated to be a free agent and as we all know, anything can happen in free agency.

The Lakers winning the fourth overall pick was unfortunate, though I don't think it was a deciding factor in the AD trade. The Celtics losing every possible coin flip and not getting the Memphis pick early didn't help either.

The Durant and Thompson injuries emboldening teams to make win-now moves also seemed to surprise the Celtics when it came to Horford getting lots of interest around the league and the Lakers being willing to make a godfather offer for Davis.

Just because you were surprised doesnt mean the Celtics were. There are always uncertainties with free agency, and most GMs know this. Also just because they don't say anything doesnt mean they dont know things. Even if you knew Kyrie was leaving, there was very little opportunity for a trade at the deadline. I mean, which team would take him then? Its easy to say do this do that when we are in our armchairs, but these guys know things we don't that factors in to their decision making. You also have the input of the owners.

[zack33]

I really don't see this argument, at all.

The Celts had the year from hell and still have a pretty decent fall-back plan that has a plausible if not probable path to the Celts being a contender 2-3 years from now. 

That's not an accident.  The Celts know what they're doing.  They just can't perform magic tricks or see the future.

Been a long time watcher for about 10 years, probably never bothered to become a member... mainly because the login thing when I once tried when I wanted to back another post a year or so ago, with the weird coloured numbers/letters takes no account for people that are colour blind so we can't work out the shades to get the right alphabet. (Took me 5 times this time to get it right lucked out because that was my give up number of attempts)

Anyway. I only made the effort to agree with this post.

To me it's a simple post that had a lot more words but I've left in the one's that matter so you don't have to read everything else even tho everything else is also a great argument. But to simplify it to those who don't understand...

Who could foresee Al Horford being perfect yet not scoring 30 every night to satisfy some. (Something he never did in his career)

Who could foresee our max all star signing; doing an injury so bad he couldn't basically contribute for 2 years... and he did that injury in his first few minutes playing for us,.

Who could foresee Kyrie (a man born in the same town as me so I really wanted to like him) being so belligerent that after he provided zero leadership and attempted volume shooting when he cracked it, that only Westbrook would be disappointed in. Then go and ring the man who he left as being his biggest problem in life (well apart from the world not being flat) to say... mmm maybe I wasn't the man... maybe I was wrong, I'm going to Jersey with the closest bloke I can find to you, so I can once again be a Costello to someone's Abbott. Look it may have been the other way around with Abbott and Costello but to simplify it Kyrie was/is the clown which ever of them was the clown, who did the Daryl Strawberry one day in his career...

Which in some ways as his career if he believes he was the alpha child, he's attitude has been spoilt child, and I'll admit that's a career most would die for. But Kyrie sees himself as so much more... his career at Boston was disappointing, in fact a bunch of Children took us to the 7th game of the ECF, when Kyrie came back and they deferred to him, we won far less games during the season and got smashed and in some ways were not even competitive in the semi-finals of the ECF.

So given the title of this thread, I'd Kyrie was asleep at the wheel most of the season, and he was asleep most of the finals series. The organisation well I support them, they'll make mistakes, they'll get some stuff right, asleep that's what Uncle Drew does.

Now I've vented enough I shall move on. Apologies.

[SHAQATTACK]

small market teams have to tank , luck out with draft of sleeper players like Giannis to compete.

Big Markets just clear cap space , open the doors the stars pile in.

NBA is at fault , for not having a strict hard cap at the minimum.  Its to the point they may need to look at other deals as well.  , and have the smaller market teams have more capspace to offset NIKE and the mega deals stars all get more of in big markets or else just let CA have their own league .

[BMark]

small market teams have to tank , luck out with draft of sleeper players like Giannis to compete.

Big Markets just clear cap space , open the doors the stars pile in.

NBA is at fault , for not having a strict hard cap at the minimum.  Its to the point they may need to look at other deals as well.  , and have the smaller market teams have more capspace to offset NIKE and the mega deals stars all get more of in big markets or else just let CA have their own league .

I respectfully disagree with this post.  If this post were accurate the Knicks would be perennial contenders and Toronto would not have won the championship.

It comes down to management.  The Knicks and the Lakers have had poor management for the last decade (this includes ownership) leading to the results on the floor.  Toronto has been wildly successful notwithstanding the fact that they play in the coldest climate because of the ingenuity and courage of Masai Ujuri.

These great players will be paid wherever they go...Most of them want to play on a team with a chance to contend.

[iadera]

Kyrie and Al are not the problem. The problem is that we lost Rozier, Morris, Theis, Baynes. Sorry to say but this is very bad calculation by Ainge. Our bench does not exist at the moment and we are stuck at just $ 4.9 mil. left., 2 max contracts and bunch of rookies. That's just bad job. Not good at all.

[Celtics4ever]

Big Markets just clear cap space , open the doors the stars pile in.

Pretty sure NYC does not agree with that.

[Birdman]

Alot of things went wrong..Ainge gamble and loss...
1. Hayward injury- no one fault of course
2. Irving said he going resign but left..also didnt fit on this team
3. Horford leaving
4. Davis trade that didnt happen
5. Bad draft- no bigs