Open Thread on Rules/Restrictions

[Chris]

I guess I just have a problem with people being oversensitive to us answering questions about why they do not trust us.  Not to be oversensitive myself, but the implications that are being made that the staff are not trustworthy are much more eggregious and disrespectful than calling an idea terrible.  

So I hope you will forgive us all for being a little defensive in our responses, but we are not robots.  We all take great offense to these ideas that are directly, or indirectly attacking our characters as moderators.  We work our butts off to keep things civil here, and then we try really hard to explain ourselves.  We are not perfect.  But it would make it a whole lot easier if every little thing that we say is not turned around on us, just for the sake of argument.

I would ask that anyone who has ever been disciplined for calling anothers idea "terrible" to please speak up.  Because I never would consider that to be "disrespectful", unless the context it is in, is completely different from Fafnir's.

[MattG12]

Actually, I think Rondo2287 had every right to respond in the way he did. As a matter of fact, he handled it better than I have dealing with almost the exact same comment.

According to the rules:

"Respect each other at all times. There is no need for name-calling or harassment of any poster. This includes behavior in all areas of Celticsblog, including forum posts, blog comments and personal messages. While we encourage lively debate there is no reason for anyone to disrespect a fellow poster's ideas."

While that can be interpreted differently by some, "I think that's a bad idea" or "it's my opinion that's a bad idea" is just more polite.

Excellent post, TP.

[wdleehi]

I would have to say that if an ombudsman were to be elected, it would have to be a unanimous choice.  

The way I understand this, among some members of the community, there is a distrust of the staff in general.  There is a perception by some people that we are not always being fair.  Is that correct?

So, if we are going to correct this by making a non-staff-member privy to private discussions, then that non-staff-member needs to be more respected by every member of the site, or else that person's assurances will be taken with the same grain of salt that is afforded the staff, and we are right back where we started, except, we have compromised the privacy of the posters by allowing a non-staff-member to be privy to the private discussions of the staff, regarding these posters.

  Just out of curiosity, how many people get banned or suspended from this blog? Is this a rampant issue?

Absolutely not.  I hesitate to put a number on it off the top of my head, but other than spammers, I would guess you could count the number of posters who have been banned in the last year on one hand...and for suspensions, you probably would not need to take off your shoes.

  Then I'd call this much ado about nothing.

  By the way, this is an interesting topic. Not only an I not an "insider", but it turns out that I'm not even an "outsider", where people would send me PMs to warn me about admins run amok and other such things. What's the next level? Outlier? Deep-space satellite?

I would go with a short term comet.  (much like Hailey's)

Sometime, you are near the Sun, sometimes your not.  But you do pass the random planet, moon, astroid or other comet.

[the_Bird]

EDIT: The other forum I've been a part of for years, I modded for a while.  We grew a LOT over the years I've been there.  Keith, the owner, was very clear that we were never going to please EVERYONE, and that he knew and understood that people were going to cycle through the site; people might get upset about something and leave, and there really wasn't anything that we could do about it.  Some people just need drama; you can be as fair and open and transparent as possible, and some people are still going to find something to fault you for.  Just makes me think this whole thread is ridiculous.

Thanks for your comments.  I definitely see why a thread like this could appear ridiculous, but let me try to explain the intent, at least as I see it.

Compared to other Celtics message boards, Celticsblog has comparatively strict rules, and a fairly large staff of moderators and administrators.  With such a structure, it would be pretty easy for people to assume we run a totalitarian regime here, and therefore, we go out of our way to give members outlets to express concerns.  We have a complete open door policy via PMs, but we also want people to feel that they can discuss issues publicly.  If we only allowed private discussion of our rules, people would assume we had something to hide.

It would be very easy to say "we're the staff, and if you don't like it, tough".  However, we try to be fairly transparent, especially about the rules and what they mean.  We know that there's a vocal minority of folks who will never be happy, and simply like to stir up trouble.  Those people, you can never please (and it's these people who are spreading outright lies about the staff via PMs, at least according to the information I've been provided).  However, for the vast majority of the blog, hopefully people see us discussing the rules, etc., and see that we really are working hard to make this a fun, respectful, and fair environment for everybody.

Much of it is probably wasted typing, but especially now -- when certain members with an anti-staff agenda are spreading lies behind the scenes and trying to poison the impressions of members, both new and old -- I think it makes sense for us to be public about our behavior, while at the same time staying true to our standards regarding member privacy.

The thing is...   I've been around here long enough, not a huge poster but I've been around for probaby five or six years, where I *KNOW* you guys do a [dang] good job.  

I just see you guys bending over backwards to be accomodative, and it just seems to me that it's all for naught; people with thin skin are going to get p---y regardless of what you do.  Realistically, the moderating here's about as good as it gets (and that ain't a kiss-up; spend some time anywhere else and you'd never see the mods wasting this many keystrokes explaining themselves).

[nickagneta]

Actually, I think Rondo2287 had every right to respond in the way he did. As a matter of fact, he handled it better than I have dealing with almost the exact same comment.

According to the rules:

"Respect each other at all times. There is no need for name-calling or harassment of any poster. This includes behavior in all areas of Celticsblog, including forum posts, blog comments and personal messages. While we encourage lively debate there is no reason for anyone to disrespect a fellow poster's ideas."

While that can be interpreted differently by some, "I think that's a bad idea" or "it's my opinion that's a bad idea" is just more polite.

So terrible is disrespectful and bad is polite?

Would we then have to have a bunch of words put into the rules describing how to use and not use them?

I recently had an idea of mine called naive. I don't like being called naive or having my ideas called naive. I let the poster know I didn't like it, not that it stopped him from once again calling the idea naive. But it is only a word and I ignored it and moved on. He could have used the word misinformed but didn't. He wanted to stress just how misinformed and used a different word.

I find that word distasteful but others don't so...who cares. Move on.

If the poster then starts using other distasteful words then report them and let the mods decide.

[BballTim]

I would have to say that if an ombudsman were to be elected, it would have to be a unanimous choice.  

The way I understand this, among some members of the community, there is a distrust of the staff in general.  There is a perception by some people that we are not always being fair.  Is that correct?

So, if we are going to correct this by making a non-staff-member privy to private discussions, then that non-staff-member needs to be more respected by every member of the site, or else that person's assurances will be taken with the same grain of salt that is afforded the staff, and we are right back where we started, except, we have compromised the privacy of the posters by allowing a non-staff-member to be privy to the private discussions of the staff, regarding these posters.

  Just out of curiosity, how many people get banned or suspended from this blog? Is this a rampant issue?

Absolutely not.  I hesitate to put a number on it off the top of my head, but other than spammers, I would guess you could count the number of posters who have been banned in the last year on one hand...and for suspensions, you probably would not need to take off your shoes.

  Then I'd call this much ado about nothing.

  By the way, this is an interesting topic. Not only an I not an "insider", but it turns out that I'm not even an "outsider", where people would send me PMs to warn me about admins run amok and other such things. What's the next level? Outlier? Deep-space satellite?

I would go with a short term comet.  (much like Hailey's)

Sometime, you are near the Sun, sometimes your not.  But you do pass the random planet, moon, astroid or other comet.

  Funny, I was thinking of working the Oort cloud into my post...

[wdleehi]

I would have to say that if an ombudsman were to be elected, it would have to be a unanimous choice.  

The way I understand this, among some members of the community, there is a distrust of the staff in general.  There is a perception by some people that we are not always being fair.  Is that correct?

So, if we are going to correct this by making a non-staff-member privy to private discussions, then that non-staff-member needs to be more respected by every member of the site, or else that person's assurances will be taken with the same grain of salt that is afforded the staff, and we are right back where we started, except, we have compromised the privacy of the posters by allowing a non-staff-member to be privy to the private discussions of the staff, regarding these posters.

  Just out of curiosity, how many people get banned or suspended from this blog? Is this a rampant issue?

Absolutely not.  I hesitate to put a number on it off the top of my head, but other than spammers, I would guess you could count the number of posters who have been banned in the last year on one hand...and for suspensions, you probably would not need to take off your shoes.

  Then I'd call this much ado about nothing.

  By the way, this is an interesting topic. Not only an I not an "insider", but it turns out that I'm not even an "outsider", where people would send me PMs to warn me about admins run amok and other such things. What's the next level? Outlier? Deep-space satellite?

I would go with a short term comet.  (much like Hailey's)

Sometime, you are near the Sun, sometimes your not.  But you do pass the random planet, moon, astroid or other comet.

  Funny, I was thinking of working the Oort cloud into my post...

That's where the readers that do not have an account yet reside.

[the_Bird]

"Terrible" is only an acceptable word choice if it's accompanied by a picture of Bill Walton.

[Rondo2287]

I guess I just have a problem with people being oversensitive to us answering questions about why they do not trust us.  Not to be oversensitive myself, but the implications that are being made that the staff are not trustworthy are much more eggregious and disrespectful than calling an idea terrible.  

So I hope you will forgive us all for being a little defensive in our responses, but we are not robots.  We all take great offense to these ideas that are directly, or indirectly attacking our characters as moderators.  We work our butts off to keep things civil here, and then we try really hard to explain ourselves.  We are not perfect.  But it would make it a whole lot easier if every little thing that we say is not turned around on us, just for the sake of argument.

I would ask that anyone who has ever been disciplined for calling anothers idea "terrible" to please speak up.  Because I never would consider that to be "disrespectful", unless the context it is in, is completely different from Fafnir's.

Thats all fine and good but i was never one that questioned the staff, I had just minutes prior in fact posted this,

"One thing I would like to strike down is the thought that if you cross a mod, all they have to do is go through and look for a post of yours that they determine breaks the rules and then they will initiate disciplinary actions. 

I am somebody that has had my fair share of questionable posts and have butted heads with a couple of Mods here, some on multiple occasions.  I also havent had any trouble staying on the site and not being suspended.  I find that the relationship i have with some of the mods i have crossed is much like the relationship with other posters i dont get along with.  I may not love what they post and they dont love what i post, but we are civil with eachother.  "

[indeedproceed]

I guess I just have a problem with people being oversensitive to us answering questions about why they do not trust us.  Not to be oversensitive myself, but the implications that are being made that the staff are not trustworthy are much more eggregious and disrespectful than calling an idea terrible.  

So I hope you will forgive us all for being a little defensive in our responses, but we are not robots.  We all take great offense to these ideas that are directly, or indirectly attacking our characters as moderators.  We work our butts off to keep things civil here, and then we try really hard to explain ourselves.  We are not perfect.  But it would make it a whole lot easier if every little thing that we say is not turned around on us, just for the sake of argument.

I would ask that anyone who has ever been disciplined for calling anothers idea "terrible" to please speak up.  Because I never would consider that to be "disrespectful", unless the context it is in, is completely different from Fafnir's.

+1. You say perception problem about inclusiveness, and throw another 1,000 passive words of filler out there, but I hear "we can't trust the mods". TBH that kind of hurts considering a lot of the talk is allegedly coming from "longtime posters".

[JSD]

Actually, I think Rondo2287 had every right to respond in the way he did. As a matter of fact, he handled it better than I have dealing with almost the exact same comment.

According to the rules:

"Respect each other at all times. There is no need for name-calling or harassment of any poster. This includes behavior in all areas of Celticsblog, including forum posts, blog comments and personal messages. While we encourage lively debate there is no reason for anyone to disrespect a fellow poster's ideas."

While that can be interpreted differently by some, "I think that's a bad idea" or "it's my opinion that's a bad idea" is just more polite.

So terrible is disrespectful and bad is polite?

Would we then have to have a bunch of words put into the rules describing how to use and not use them?

I recently had an idea of mine called naive. I don't like being called naive or having my ideas called naive. I let the poster know I didn't like it, not that it stopped him from once again calling the idea naive. But it is only a word and I ignored it and moved on. He could have used the word misinformed but didn't. He wanted to stress just how misinformed and used a different word.

I find that word distasteful but others don't so...who cares. Move on.

If the poster then starts using other distasteful words then report them and let the mods decide.

That person calling you naive was being disrespectful because he stated it as if it were a fact. To pronounce a statement in a factual form declaring someones idea "terrible" or "naive" is disrespectful or not polite in my opinion.

[BballTim]

I would have to say that if an ombudsman were to be elected, it would have to be a unanimous choice.  

The way I understand this, among some members of the community, there is a distrust of the staff in general.  There is a perception by some people that we are not always being fair.  Is that correct?

So, if we are going to correct this by making a non-staff-member privy to private discussions, then that non-staff-member needs to be more respected by every member of the site, or else that person's assurances will be taken with the same grain of salt that is afforded the staff, and we are right back where we started, except, we have compromised the privacy of the posters by allowing a non-staff-member to be privy to the private discussions of the staff, regarding these posters.

  Just out of curiosity, how many people get banned or suspended from this blog? Is this a rampant issue?

Absolutely not.  I hesitate to put a number on it off the top of my head, but other than spammers, I would guess you could count the number of posters who have been banned in the last year on one hand...and for suspensions, you probably would not need to take off your shoes.

  Then I'd call this much ado about nothing.

  By the way, this is an interesting topic. Not only an I not an "insider", but it turns out that I'm not even an "outsider", where people would send me PMs to warn me about admins run amok and other such things. What's the next level? Outlier? Deep-space satellite?

I would go with a short term comet.  (much like Hailey's)

Sometime, you are near the Sun, sometimes your not.  But you do pass the random planet, moon, astroid or other comet.

  Funny, I was thinking of working the Oort cloud into my post...

That's where the readers that do not have an account yet reside.

  Sheesh! It's getting pretty tough for us non-insiders/non-outsiders to find some space to call home!

[Roy Hobbs]

I don't think calling an idea "terrible" is a bad thing, so long as you're clear why you disagree with the idea.  Personally, I try to soften the language a bit -- "terrible" can sound harsher than intended -- but ultimately, what's the difference between saying "That's a terrible idea", "In my opinion that's a terrible idea", "That's a bad idea", and "In my opinion, that's a bad idea"?  In the end, they all mean the same thing.

It's not, in my opinion, disrespectful to disagree with somebody's ideas, and it's not disrespectful to tell somebody their idea is a bad one, so long as you're not dismissive and rude (i.e., "LOL, dumb idea", or something of that nature.)

I understand reasonable minds can disagree, but I think that if people are getting riled up because somebody rejected their idea more harshly than they would like, things are getting a little out of hand.  I mean, I've got no problem with acknowledging a mod's mistake (and have done so plenty of times, both publicly and privately), but I think Fafnir's words were, at worst, harsh.  I don't think there was anything offensive, disrespectful, or dismissive about them.

[wdleehi]

I would have to say that if an ombudsman were to be elected, it would have to be a unanimous choice.  

The way I understand this, among some members of the community, there is a distrust of the staff in general.  There is a perception by some people that we are not always being fair.  Is that correct?

So, if we are going to correct this by making a non-staff-member privy to private discussions, then that non-staff-member needs to be more respected by every member of the site, or else that person's assurances will be taken with the same grain of salt that is afforded the staff, and we are right back where we started, except, we have compromised the privacy of the posters by allowing a non-staff-member to be privy to the private discussions of the staff, regarding these posters.

  Just out of curiosity, how many people get banned or suspended from this blog? Is this a rampant issue?

Absolutely not.  I hesitate to put a number on it off the top of my head, but other than spammers, I would guess you could count the number of posters who have been banned in the last year on one hand...and for suspensions, you probably would not need to take off your shoes.

  Then I'd call this much ado about nothing.

  By the way, this is an interesting topic. Not only an I not an "insider", but it turns out that I'm not even an "outsider", where people would send me PMs to warn me about admins run amok and other such things. What's the next level? Outlier? Deep-space satellite?

I would go with a short term comet.  (much like Hailey's)

Sometime, you are near the Sun, sometimes your not.  But you do pass the random planet, moon, astroid or other comet.

  Funny, I was thinking of working the Oort cloud into my post...

That's where the readers that do not have an account yet reside.

  Sheesh! It's getting pretty tough for us non-insiders/non-outsiders to find some space to call home!

Hey, there is a lot of space in this Solar Sytem.

[Rondo_is_better]

I would have to say that if an ombudsman were to be elected, it would have to be a unanimous choice.  

The way I understand this, among some members of the community, there is a distrust of the staff in general.  There is a perception by some people that we are not always being fair.  Is that correct?

So, if we are going to correct this by making a non-staff-member privy to private discussions, then that non-staff-member needs to be more respected by every member of the site, or else that person's assurances will be taken with the same grain of salt that is afforded the staff, and we are right back where we started, except, we have compromised the privacy of the posters by allowing a non-staff-member to be privy to the private discussions of the staff, regarding these posters.

  Just out of curiosity, how many people get banned or suspended from this blog? Is this a rampant issue?

Absolutely not.  I hesitate to put a number on it off the top of my head, but other than spammers, I would guess you could count the number of posters who have been banned in the last year on one hand...and for suspensions, you probably would not need to take off your shoes.

  Then I'd call this much ado about nothing.

  By the way, this is an interesting topic. Not only an I not an "insider", but it turns out that I'm not even an "outsider", where people would send me PMs to warn me about admins run amok and other such things. What's the next level? Outlier? Deep-space satellite?

Find Waldo, I highlighted him.