Author Topic: NFL Off-season 2022  (Read 70009 times)

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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #510 on: August 01, 2022, 10:18:27 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Or maybe the NFL shouldn't just make up the rules after the fact and try to enforce them for retroactive conduct.  I'm actually surprised she suspended him at all given how harshly she came down on the NFL for changing the rules mid-process.

If the rules are unfair, have the balls to dismiss the case as a Due Process violation.  I'm not sure what specifically you're referring to, though.  Are players not aware that sexually assaulting four women is against the rules?  Punishing somebody for four proven sexual assaults is retroactive conduct?  I mean, that's literally the arbitrator's argument, right?  The NFL didn't specifically prohibit a player non-consensually touching his penis to another person's body in an unwanted way while asking for / demanding sex.  The NFL policy prohibits sexual assault committed via violence and sexual assault where a victim can't give consent.  But, in a situation where you simply force somebody to touch your junk and emotionally devastate them into needing therapy?  That's A-OK.  No policy against that, so the player couldn't have known it was wrong.

Don't make a *finding* that sexual assault occurred to at least four women, and then try to argue that that forcible, non-consensual sexual assault was "non-violent".  I hope you're simply being a contrarian, rather than somebody who thinks it's okay to go around intentionally sexually assaulting women.
Her finding was based on the NFL's after the fact interpretation of the rule.  I read the 15 pages.  She basically found that under the definition they created for this situation, he was guilty of violating the rule, but wasn't going to suspend him harshly because they were trying to retroactively punish him for conduct that wasn't well defined.  As I said, I'm actually surprised she suspended given the language she used. 

I mean this is basically the conclusion of the opinion

"Here, the NFL is attempting to impose a more dramatic shift in its culture without the benefit of fair notice to - and consistency of consequence for - those in the NFL subject to the Policy."

She has a footnote on Policy, which states "I note in this regard that the Policy is equally applicable to players and team owners and management.  The NFLPA questions whether it is "fair and equitable" to severely punish Mr. Watson for his non-violent sexual conduct and not even charge various team owners who have been accused of similar or worse conduct."

She basically called the NFL hypocrites who only did anything at all because of public outcry.

Is Robert Kraft going to a massage parlor that is a front for prostitution the same as hiring an amateur masseuse, inviting her to your room and forcing her to touch your naked penis against her will, to the point where she’s in fear and suffers psychological damage?

She made a finding that Watson sexually assaulted four different women, and then basically said “no biggie”. 

What part of the NFL’s definition of sexual assault bothers you?  The definition was unwanted physical touching of a sexual nature with Watson’s erect penis.  The arbitrator found that that occurred to four different women, at least.
It didn't bother me, but it clearly bothered Judge Robinson who seemed to focus a lot on the lack of force, which is in the criminal definition of sexual assault (at least in most jurisdictions). 

"There is no allegation that Mr. Watson exerted any force against any of the therapists."

Judge Robinson seemed to have issue with the fact that "the conduct of "sexual assault" is not defined in the CBA, the Policy, or the Report." She concluded that section mentioning it again "Mr. Watson engaged in sexual assault (as defined by the NFL) against the four therapists identified in the Report." 

She had even stronger language in the section involving whether the conduct posed a danger to the safety or well-being of another with language like "it is the NFL's policy and it can set the rules" and that the NFL has a "broad interpretation" of the rules.

The whole tone of the decision is one that Judge Robinson feels the NFL was overstepping and creating definitions of things on the fly.  Basically don't try to enforce something retroactively that you've never defined and never bargained for. 

It is pretty clear Watson's conduct was detrimental to the league, which is why she went for the 6 games as that basically matched precedent for that sort of detrimental conduct.

Moranis if you say as a lawyer that non-forceful sexual assault is given leniency in a lot of jurisdictions I will take your word for it, but I personally find that an extremely disturbing definition to distinguish (and I am worked with domestic assault and sexual assault survivors). The idea that a woman can be in a room 1 on 1 with a 6'2 220 pound jacked professional athlete and she has to resist and force the man to get physical when she is terrified for it to "forceful sexual assault" seems like a terribly misinformed law. That would inherently lead to a lot worse outcomes, perhaps even deadly in some situations. There is substantial evidence from these women that several of them were extremely distraught and terrified after the experience. This "forceful sexual assault" difference feels like something out of the 1960's when a man "couldn't rape his wife" and things of the like. I also really hope you are not going down a rabbit hole defending some pretty awful actions because the guy now plays for a Cleveland team. Roy do you have any experience with this forceful sexual assault delineation in your work?
You can look up the statutes.  They aren't hard to find.  The vast majority of the conduct he was accused of committing would be a minor misdemeanor.  Not all, just the vast majority.  As with most crimes there are degrees and the actual conduct matters.  But that is why you need clear definitions on these things so you know where the line is and what the punishment is for the varying degrees of conduct.  That is pretty clearly what was troubling Judge Robinson, but he pretty clearly violated the policy regarding conduct detrimental to the league, and similar type conduct of that ilk gets you a 6 game suspension, which is why he got 6 games. 

I'd have probably suspended 12 games since there are so many instances, but there is a solid legal basis for 6 games.  Given she only gave him 6 games and because of the way his contract was structured, I also think she should have fined him rather significantly. 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2022, 10:52:16 PM by Moranis »
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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #511 on: August 01, 2022, 10:56:13 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Or maybe the NFL shouldn't just make up the rules after the fact and try to enforce them for retroactive conduct.  I'm actually surprised she suspended him at all given how harshly she came down on the NFL for changing the rules mid-process.

If the rules are unfair, have the balls to dismiss the case as a Due Process violation.  I'm not sure what specifically you're referring to, though.  Are players not aware that sexually assaulting four women is against the rules?  Punishing somebody for four proven sexual assaults is retroactive conduct?  I mean, that's literally the arbitrator's argument, right?  The NFL didn't specifically prohibit a player non-consensually touching his penis to another person's body in an unwanted way while asking for / demanding sex.  The NFL policy prohibits sexual assault committed via violence and sexual assault where a victim can't give consent.  But, in a situation where you simply force somebody to touch your junk and emotionally devastate them into needing therapy?  That's A-OK.  No policy against that, so the player couldn't have known it was wrong.

Don't make a *finding* that sexual assault occurred to at least four women, and then try to argue that that forcible, non-consensual sexual assault was "non-violent".  I hope you're simply being a contrarian, rather than somebody who thinks it's okay to go around intentionally sexually assaulting women.
Her finding was based on the NFL's after the fact interpretation of the rule.  I read the 15 pages.  She basically found that under the definition they created for this situation, he was guilty of violating the rule, but wasn't going to suspend him harshly because they were trying to retroactively punish him for conduct that wasn't well defined.  As I said, I'm actually surprised she suspended given the language she used. 

I mean this is basically the conclusion of the opinion

"Here, the NFL is attempting to impose a more dramatic shift in its culture without the benefit of fair notice to - and consistency of consequence for - those in the NFL subject to the Policy."

She has a footnote on Policy, which states "I note in this regard that the Policy is equally applicable to players and team owners and management.  The NFLPA questions whether it is "fair and equitable" to severely punish Mr. Watson for his non-violent sexual conduct and not even charge various team owners who have been accused of similar or worse conduct."

She basically called the NFL hypocrites who only did anything at all because of public outcry.

Is Robert Kraft going to a massage parlor that is a front for prostitution the same as hiring an amateur masseuse, inviting her to your room and forcing her to touch your naked penis against her will, to the point where she’s in fear and suffers psychological damage?

She made a finding that Watson sexually assaulted four different women, and then basically said “no biggie”. 

What part of the NFL’s definition of sexual assault bothers you?  The definition was unwanted physical touching of a sexual nature with Watson’s erect penis.  The arbitrator found that that occurred to four different women, at least.
It didn't bother me, but it clearly bothered Judge Robinson who seemed to focus a lot on the lack of force, which is in the criminal definition of sexual assault (at least in most jurisdictions). 

"There is no allegation that Mr. Watson exerted any force against any of the therapists."

Judge Robinson seemed to have issue with the fact that "the conduct of "sexual assault" is not defined in the CBA, the Policy, or the Report." She concluded that section mentioning it again "Mr. Watson engaged in sexual assault (as defined by the NFL) against the four therapists identified in the Report." 

She had even stronger language in the section involving whether the conduct posed a danger to the safety or well-being of another with language like "it is the NFL's policy and it can set the rules" and that the NFL has a "broad interpretation" of the rules.

The whole tone of the decision is one that Judge Robinson feels the NFL was overstepping and creating definitions of things on the fly.  Basically don't try to enforce something retroactively that you've never defined and never bargained for. 

It is pretty clear Watson's conduct was detrimental to the league, which is why she went for the 6 games as that basically matched precedent for that sort of detrimental conduct.

Moranis if you say as a lawyer that non-forceful sexual assault is given leniency in a lot of jurisdictions I will take your word for it, but I personally find that an extremely disturbing definition to distinguish (and I am worked with domestic assault and sexual assault survivors). The idea that a woman can be in a room 1 on 1 with a 6'2 220 pound jacked professional athlete and she has to resist and force the man to get physical when she is terrified for it to "forceful sexual assault" seems like a terribly misinformed law. That would inherently lead to a lot worse outcomes, perhaps even deadly in some situations. There is substantial evidence from these women that several of them were extremely distraught and terrified after the experience. This "forceful sexual assault" difference feels like something out of the 1960's when a man "couldn't rape his wife" and things of the like. I also really hope you are not going down a rabbit hole defending some pretty awful actions because the guy now plays for a Cleveland team. Roy do you have any experience with this forceful sexual assault delineation in your work?
You can look up the statutes.  They aren't hard to find.  The vast majority of the conduct he was accused of committing would be a minor misdemeanor.  Not all, just the vast majority.  As with most crimes there are degrees and the actual conduct matters.  But that is why you need clear definitions on these things so you know where the line is and what the punishment is for the varying degrees of conduct.  That is pretty clearly what was troubling Judge Robinson.

An assault (or battery) equals an “unwanted physical touching”

A sexual assault (or battery) is an unwanted physical touching of a physical nature.

That definition isn’t obscure; it’s essentially black letter law.  And Watson, according to the arbitrator, sexually assaulted four women.

And, if the NFL doesn’t appeal, that means Watson gets 1.5 games for each sexual assault he committed. 


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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #512 on: August 01, 2022, 11:07:05 PM »

Online celticsclay

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Or maybe the NFL shouldn't just make up the rules after the fact and try to enforce them for retroactive conduct.  I'm actually surprised she suspended him at all given how harshly she came down on the NFL for changing the rules mid-process.

If the rules are unfair, have the balls to dismiss the case as a Due Process violation.  I'm not sure what specifically you're referring to, though.  Are players not aware that sexually assaulting four women is against the rules?  Punishing somebody for four proven sexual assaults is retroactive conduct?  I mean, that's literally the arbitrator's argument, right?  The NFL didn't specifically prohibit a player non-consensually touching his penis to another person's body in an unwanted way while asking for / demanding sex.  The NFL policy prohibits sexual assault committed via violence and sexual assault where a victim can't give consent.  But, in a situation where you simply force somebody to touch your junk and emotionally devastate them into needing therapy?  That's A-OK.  No policy against that, so the player couldn't have known it was wrong.

Don't make a *finding* that sexual assault occurred to at least four women, and then try to argue that that forcible, non-consensual sexual assault was "non-violent".  I hope you're simply being a contrarian, rather than somebody who thinks it's okay to go around intentionally sexually assaulting women.
Her finding was based on the NFL's after the fact interpretation of the rule.  I read the 15 pages.  She basically found that under the definition they created for this situation, he was guilty of violating the rule, but wasn't going to suspend him harshly because they were trying to retroactively punish him for conduct that wasn't well defined.  As I said, I'm actually surprised she suspended given the language she used. 

I mean this is basically the conclusion of the opinion

"Here, the NFL is attempting to impose a more dramatic shift in its culture without the benefit of fair notice to - and consistency of consequence for - those in the NFL subject to the Policy."

She has a footnote on Policy, which states "I note in this regard that the Policy is equally applicable to players and team owners and management.  The NFLPA questions whether it is "fair and equitable" to severely punish Mr. Watson for his non-violent sexual conduct and not even charge various team owners who have been accused of similar or worse conduct."

She basically called the NFL hypocrites who only did anything at all because of public outcry.

Is Robert Kraft going to a massage parlor that is a front for prostitution the same as hiring an amateur masseuse, inviting her to your room and forcing her to touch your naked penis against her will, to the point where she’s in fear and suffers psychological damage?

She made a finding that Watson sexually assaulted four different women, and then basically said “no biggie”. 

What part of the NFL’s definition of sexual assault bothers you?  The definition was unwanted physical touching of a sexual nature with Watson’s erect penis.  The arbitrator found that that occurred to four different women, at least.
It didn't bother me, but it clearly bothered Judge Robinson who seemed to focus a lot on the lack of force, which is in the criminal definition of sexual assault (at least in most jurisdictions). 

"There is no allegation that Mr. Watson exerted any force against any of the therapists."

Judge Robinson seemed to have issue with the fact that "the conduct of "sexual assault" is not defined in the CBA, the Policy, or the Report." She concluded that section mentioning it again "Mr. Watson engaged in sexual assault (as defined by the NFL) against the four therapists identified in the Report." 

She had even stronger language in the section involving whether the conduct posed a danger to the safety or well-being of another with language like "it is the NFL's policy and it can set the rules" and that the NFL has a "broad interpretation" of the rules.

The whole tone of the decision is one that Judge Robinson feels the NFL was overstepping and creating definitions of things on the fly.  Basically don't try to enforce something retroactively that you've never defined and never bargained for. 

It is pretty clear Watson's conduct was detrimental to the league, which is why she went for the 6 games as that basically matched precedent for that sort of detrimental conduct.

Moranis if you say as a lawyer that non-forceful sexual assault is given leniency in a lot of jurisdictions I will take your word for it, but I personally find that an extremely disturbing definition to distinguish (and I am worked with domestic assault and sexual assault survivors). The idea that a woman can be in a room 1 on 1 with a 6'2 220 pound jacked professional athlete and she has to resist and force the man to get physical when she is terrified for it to "forceful sexual assault" seems like a terribly misinformed law. That would inherently lead to a lot worse outcomes, perhaps even deadly in some situations. There is substantial evidence from these women that several of them were extremely distraught and terrified after the experience. This "forceful sexual assault" difference feels like something out of the 1960's when a man "couldn't rape his wife" and things of the like. I also really hope you are not going down a rabbit hole defending some pretty awful actions because the guy now plays for a Cleveland team. Roy do you have any experience with this forceful sexual assault delineation in your work?
You can look up the statutes.  They aren't hard to find.  The vast majority of the conduct he was accused of committing would be a minor misdemeanor.  Not all, just the vast majority.  As with most crimes there are degrees and the actual conduct matters.  But that is why you need clear definitions on these things so you know where the line is and what the punishment is for the varying degrees of conduct.  That is pretty clearly what was troubling Judge Robinson.

An assault (or battery) equals an “unwanted physical touching”

A sexual assault (or battery) is an unwanted physical touching of a physical nature.

That definition isn’t obscure; it’s essentially black letter law.  And Watson, according to the arbitrator, sexually assaulted four women.

And, if the NFL doesn’t appeal, that means Watson gets 1.5 games for each sexual assault he committed.
Ok these are clearly not minor misdemeanors then like mo is arguing for some reason. This non forced sexual assault argument is Starting to remind me of the senator that talked about legitimate rape a decade ago.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2022, 11:12:25 PM by celticsclay »

Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #513 on: August 02, 2022, 12:58:10 AM »

Online celticsclay

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Arbitrator was a patent lawyer. Getting destroyed for calling the crimes non violent. Don’t think the non-Violent sexual assault is a good hill to die on.

https://deadspin.com/why-was-sue-robinson-involved-in-deshaun-watson-s-case-1849355884

Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #514 on: August 02, 2022, 08:54:03 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Or maybe the NFL shouldn't just make up the rules after the fact and try to enforce them for retroactive conduct.  I'm actually surprised she suspended him at all given how harshly she came down on the NFL for changing the rules mid-process.

If the rules are unfair, have the balls to dismiss the case as a Due Process violation.  I'm not sure what specifically you're referring to, though.  Are players not aware that sexually assaulting four women is against the rules?  Punishing somebody for four proven sexual assaults is retroactive conduct?  I mean, that's literally the arbitrator's argument, right?  The NFL didn't specifically prohibit a player non-consensually touching his penis to another person's body in an unwanted way while asking for / demanding sex.  The NFL policy prohibits sexual assault committed via violence and sexual assault where a victim can't give consent.  But, in a situation where you simply force somebody to touch your junk and emotionally devastate them into needing therapy?  That's A-OK.  No policy against that, so the player couldn't have known it was wrong.

Don't make a *finding* that sexual assault occurred to at least four women, and then try to argue that that forcible, non-consensual sexual assault was "non-violent".  I hope you're simply being a contrarian, rather than somebody who thinks it's okay to go around intentionally sexually assaulting women.
Her finding was based on the NFL's after the fact interpretation of the rule.  I read the 15 pages.  She basically found that under the definition they created for this situation, he was guilty of violating the rule, but wasn't going to suspend him harshly because they were trying to retroactively punish him for conduct that wasn't well defined.  As I said, I'm actually surprised she suspended given the language she used. 

I mean this is basically the conclusion of the opinion

"Here, the NFL is attempting to impose a more dramatic shift in its culture without the benefit of fair notice to - and consistency of consequence for - those in the NFL subject to the Policy."

She has a footnote on Policy, which states "I note in this regard that the Policy is equally applicable to players and team owners and management.  The NFLPA questions whether it is "fair and equitable" to severely punish Mr. Watson for his non-violent sexual conduct and not even charge various team owners who have been accused of similar or worse conduct."

She basically called the NFL hypocrites who only did anything at all because of public outcry.

Is Robert Kraft going to a massage parlor that is a front for prostitution the same as hiring an amateur masseuse, inviting her to your room and forcing her to touch your naked penis against her will, to the point where she’s in fear and suffers psychological damage?

She made a finding that Watson sexually assaulted four different women, and then basically said “no biggie”. 

What part of the NFL’s definition of sexual assault bothers you?  The definition was unwanted physical touching of a sexual nature with Watson’s erect penis.  The arbitrator found that that occurred to four different women, at least.
It didn't bother me, but it clearly bothered Judge Robinson who seemed to focus a lot on the lack of force, which is in the criminal definition of sexual assault (at least in most jurisdictions). 

"There is no allegation that Mr. Watson exerted any force against any of the therapists."

Judge Robinson seemed to have issue with the fact that "the conduct of "sexual assault" is not defined in the CBA, the Policy, or the Report." She concluded that section mentioning it again "Mr. Watson engaged in sexual assault (as defined by the NFL) against the four therapists identified in the Report." 

She had even stronger language in the section involving whether the conduct posed a danger to the safety or well-being of another with language like "it is the NFL's policy and it can set the rules" and that the NFL has a "broad interpretation" of the rules.

The whole tone of the decision is one that Judge Robinson feels the NFL was overstepping and creating definitions of things on the fly.  Basically don't try to enforce something retroactively that you've never defined and never bargained for. 

It is pretty clear Watson's conduct was detrimental to the league, which is why she went for the 6 games as that basically matched precedent for that sort of detrimental conduct.

Moranis if you say as a lawyer that non-forceful sexual assault is given leniency in a lot of jurisdictions I will take your word for it, but I personally find that an extremely disturbing definition to distinguish (and I am worked with domestic assault and sexual assault survivors). The idea that a woman can be in a room 1 on 1 with a 6'2 220 pound jacked professional athlete and she has to resist and force the man to get physical when she is terrified for it to "forceful sexual assault" seems like a terribly misinformed law. That would inherently lead to a lot worse outcomes, perhaps even deadly in some situations. There is substantial evidence from these women that several of them were extremely distraught and terrified after the experience. This "forceful sexual assault" difference feels like something out of the 1960's when a man "couldn't rape his wife" and things of the like. I also really hope you are not going down a rabbit hole defending some pretty awful actions because the guy now plays for a Cleveland team. Roy do you have any experience with this forceful sexual assault delineation in your work?
You can look up the statutes.  They aren't hard to find.  The vast majority of the conduct he was accused of committing would be a minor misdemeanor.  Not all, just the vast majority.  As with most crimes there are degrees and the actual conduct matters.  But that is why you need clear definitions on these things so you know where the line is and what the punishment is for the varying degrees of conduct.  That is pretty clearly what was troubling Judge Robinson.

An assault (or battery) equals an “unwanted physical touching”

A sexual assault (or battery) is an unwanted physical touching of a physical nature.

That definition isn’t obscure; it’s essentially black letter law.  And Watson, according to the arbitrator, sexually assaulted four women.

And, if the NFL doesn’t appeal, that means Watson gets 1.5 games for each sexual assault he committed.
An assault is a minor misdemeanor unless there are aggravating factors. 

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.22.htm

22.01 (a)(3) - intentionally or knowingly causing physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative.

22.01 (c) - an offense under Subsection (a)(2) or (a)(3) is a Class C misdemeanor, except that the offense is: 1. against an elderly or disabled individual; 2. relates to fans attacking players; or 3. the person is pregnant and forces them to abort a child

So the vast majority of what Watson was accused of is a Class C misdemeanor or you know a minor misdemeanor, which is exactly what I said.

the Sexual Assault statute is also there in 22.011, however very little of the conduct alleged to have been committed by Watson actually meets any of the definitions of sexual assault.  These are 2nd Degree Felonies

They are basically: (a)(1) the person intentionally or knowingly does:
A. all require penetration;
B. forcing a person to perform oral sex on you; or
C. performing oral sex on that person. 

Then you look at 22.011(b) which is says there is no consent if:
1. the person compels the person to submit or participate by the use of physical force, violence, or coercion;
2. threatens violence;
3. the victim is unconscious or physically unable to resist;
4. person is under mental distress and unable to consent;
5. the person doesn't know they are being assaulted;
6. actor has intentionally impaired the victim;
7. compulsion via threatening force or violence;
8. actor is a public servant;
9. actor is a mental health provider;
10. actor is clergy;
11. actor works for the place of residence of victim;
12. actor is a reproductive health worker;
13. actor is a coach or tutor;
14. actor is a caregiver.

This is where the force or threats come in.  It is actually a requirement of the offense unless there is a special relationship. 

Very little of what Watson was accused rises to the level of sexual assault under the legal requirements in Texas.  The vast majority of the conduct, no matter how gross and despicable, is a Class C (or minor) misdemeanor. 
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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #515 on: August 02, 2022, 09:12:47 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Very little of what Watson was accused rises to the level of sexual assault under the legal requirements in Texas.

Isn't that like being "a little bit pregnant", though?

I'm not looking at criminal law here, but even there you're saying that some of his actions constituted felony sexual assault.  But, under a common sense definition of "unwanted physical touching of a sexual nature", that happened with at least four women.  Four women were forced, against their will, to have contact with Watson's erect, naked penis.  And again, four women is the minimum; there are lots of potential victims that the NFL didn't get a chance to speak with, in part because Watson used his status as a quarter-billionaire to settle the civil lawsuits.  What we do know is that his actions caused substantial psychological harm.

Nobody in their right mind thinks that that is okay, right?

Prior to all of this, Watson was probably my favorite player.  For years, I lamented the Bears (my team) not drafting him, because he seemed like such an obvious pick to me.  Great player, a winner, a leader, a seemingly decent guy, a guy a city could be proud of.  And just like Big Ben before him, he's going to get away with sexual assault with essentially no meaningful penalty. 

I don't disagree with you that many of the sexual assault laws in this country are poorly written, or treat vile behavior leniently.  I'm sure we've got members of state legislatures out there that think that forcing a date to give you a handjob if she's not going to "put out" is just boys being boys, which is why the law hasn't changed in some states.  But, that doesn't make it okay behavior.

I'm not a liberal or in any way woke, but I will go to my grave believing that all sexual assaults are violent.


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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #516 on: August 02, 2022, 10:00:33 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Very little of what Watson was accused rises to the level of sexual assault under the legal requirements in Texas.

Isn't that like being "a little bit pregnant", though?

I'm not looking at criminal law here, but even there you're saying that some of his actions constituted felony sexual assault.  But, under a common sense definition of "unwanted physical touching of a sexual nature", that happened with at least four women.  Four women were forced, against their will, to have contact with Watson's erect, naked penis.  And again, four women is the minimum; there are lots of potential victims that the NFL didn't get a chance to speak with, in part because Watson used his status as a quarter-billionaire to settle the civil lawsuits.  What we do know is that his actions caused substantial psychological harm.

Nobody in their right mind thinks that that is okay, right?

Prior to all of this, Watson was probably my favorite player.  For years, I lamented the Bears (my team) not drafting him, because he seemed like such an obvious pick to me.  Great player, a winner, a leader, a seemingly decent guy, a guy a city could be proud of.  And just like Big Ben before him, he's going to get away with sexual assault with essentially no meaningful penalty. 

I don't disagree with you that many of the sexual assault laws in this country are poorly written, or treat vile behavior leniently.  I'm sure we've got members of state legislatures out there that think that forcing a date to give you a handjob if she's not going to "put out" is just boys being boys, which is why the law hasn't changed in some states.  But, that doesn't make it okay behavior.

I'm not a liberal or in any way woke, but I will go to my grave believing that all sexual assaults are violent.
They are poorly written, but the NFL didn't even define it, so what is the arbiter of the decision supposed to use.  Well starting with the actual criminal statutes in Texas seems like a good place to go to me and the vast majority of the allegations are nothing more than minor misdemeanors.  There is after all a reason that they couldn't even charge him after grand juries looked at the evidence.  His conduct is gross and despicable, but by and large was nothing more than a minor misdemeanor.  That and the NFL not actually defining what conduct yields what punishment is why Judge Robinson suspended him for 6 games.  If the NFL wants harsher penalties, then it needs to negotiate those with the Union and not just make it up as it goes along. 
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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #517 on: August 02, 2022, 11:07:46 AM »

Online celticsclay

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Quote
Very little of what Watson was accused rises to the level of sexual assault under the legal requirements in Texas.

Isn't that like being "a little bit pregnant", though?

I'm not looking at criminal law here, but even there you're saying that some of his actions constituted felony sexual assault.  But, under a common sense definition of "unwanted physical touching of a sexual nature", that happened with at least four women.  Four women were forced, against their will, to have contact with Watson's erect, naked penis.  And again, four women is the minimum; there are lots of potential victims that the NFL didn't get a chance to speak with, in part because Watson used his status as a quarter-billionaire to settle the civil lawsuits.  What we do know is that his actions caused substantial psychological harm.

Nobody in their right mind thinks that that is okay, right?

Prior to all of this, Watson was probably my favorite player.  For years, I lamented the Bears (my team) not drafting him, because he seemed like such an obvious pick to me.  Great player, a winner, a leader, a seemingly decent guy, a guy a city could be proud of.  And just like Big Ben before him, he's going to get away with sexual assault with essentially no meaningful penalty. 

I don't disagree with you that many of the sexual assault laws in this country are poorly written, or treat vile behavior leniently.  I'm sure we've got members of state legislatures out there that think that forcing a date to give you a handjob if she's not going to "put out" is just boys being boys, which is why the law hasn't changed in some states.  But, that doesn't make it okay behavior.

I'm not a liberal or in any way woke, but I will go to my grave believing that all sexual assaults are violent.
They are poorly written, but the NFL didn't even define it, so what is the arbiter of the decision supposed to use.  Well starting with the actual criminal statutes in Texas seems like a good place to go to me and the vast majority of the allegations are nothing more than minor misdemeanors.  There is after all a reason that they couldn't even charge him after grand juries looked at the evidence.  His conduct is gross and despicable, but by and large was nothing more than a minor misdemeanor.  That and the NFL not actually defining what conduct yields what punishment is why Judge Robinson suspended him for 6 games.  If the NFL wants harsher penalties, then it needs to negotiate those with the Union and not just make it up as it goes along.

Why do you keep focusing on the minor misdemeanors here? If I beat 14 people up and shot two people would rightfully talk about the two murders. It’s a very weird way to talk about it. And as much I disagree with you on basketball stuff, I have generally agreed with you on current events. You seem to be taking an out of character stance here and I hope it is not just cause the guy plays in Cleveland now.

Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #518 on: August 02, 2022, 11:15:40 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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If the NFL wants harsher penalties, then it needs to negotiate those with the Union and not just make it up as it goes along.

As a practical matter, not really.  The Commish gets to play judge, jury and executioner here.  I hope he does.


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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #519 on: August 02, 2022, 11:52:07 AM »

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If the NFL wants harsher penalties, then it needs to negotiate those with the Union and not just make it up as it goes along.

As a practical matter, not really.  The Commish gets to play judge, jury and executioner here.  I hope he does.
And then the NFLPA will sue and a federal judge will look at it and reach the same conclusion that Robinson did.  That established precedent yields 6 games is appropriate. 
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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #520 on: August 02, 2022, 12:04:48 PM »

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Adam Schefter
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NFL stripped the Dolphins of their 2023 first-round draft pick and 2024 third-round pick for violating the integrity of the game.

Dolphins’ owner Stephen Ross also suspended through Oct. 17 and fined $1.5 million.



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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #521 on: August 02, 2022, 12:05:56 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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If the NFL wants harsher penalties, then it needs to negotiate those with the Union and not just make it up as it goes along.

As a practical matter, not really.  The Commish gets to play judge, jury and executioner here.  I hope he does.
And then the NFLPA will sue and a federal judge will look at it and reach the same conclusion that Robinson did.  That established precedent yields 6 games is appropriate.

Not really at all.  That court case will get as far as Tom Brady's did.


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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #522 on: August 02, 2022, 12:07:52 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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[dang].

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Adam Schefter
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NFL stripped the Dolphins of their 2023 first-round draft pick and 2024 third-round pick for violating the integrity of the game.

Dolphins’ owner Stephen Ross also suspended through Oct. 17 and fined $1.5 million.



When I saw the penalties I assumed it was about tanking.  That's much more concrete.

Hint to the NBA:  if you want to stop tampering, this is the way to do it.


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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #523 on: August 02, 2022, 01:10:20 PM »

Offline Moranis

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[dang].

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Adam Schefter
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NFL stripped the Dolphins of their 2023 first-round draft pick and 2024 third-round pick for violating the integrity of the game.

Dolphins’ owner Stephen Ross also suspended through Oct. 17 and fined $1.5 million.



When I saw the penalties I assumed it was about tanking.  That's much more concrete.

Hint to the NBA:  if you want to stop tampering, this is the way to do it.
I don't know if this is really comparable to what we think of and hear about NBA tanking.  I mean talking during the dark period is not the same thing as talking during the course of an entire season.
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Re: NFL Off-season 2022
« Reply #524 on: August 02, 2022, 01:12:40 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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[dang].

Quote
Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
NFL stripped the Dolphins of their 2023 first-round draft pick and 2024 third-round pick for violating the integrity of the game.

Dolphins’ owner Stephen Ross also suspended through Oct. 17 and fined $1.5 million.



When I saw the penalties I assumed it was about tanking.  That's much more concrete.

Hint to the NBA:  if you want to stop tampering, this is the way to do it.
I don't know if this is really comparable to what we think of and hear about NBA tanking.  I mean talking during the dark period is not the same thing as talking during the course of an entire season.

My guess is that NBA teams don't wait until the week before free agency to initiate conversations.  For instance, Malcolm Brogdon.  Would it shock anybody if the Knicks started tampering with him six months ago, either through his agent or his father?


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