Author Topic: The price for John Collins  (Read 2950 times)

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Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2022, 01:07:14 PM »

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At this point, I think Harrison Barnes is a better value for a stretch 4.

Agreed. Barnes is a more well-rounded player offensively and defensively at the PF position. The ball-handling, passing & outside shooting (volume, versatility of attempts) all better. On defense, Barnes better defends the perimeter both in man D and team D (rotations).

Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2022, 01:22:47 PM »

Online Roy H.

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At this point, I think Harrison Barnes is a better value for a stretch 4.

Agreed. Barnes is a more well-rounded player offensively and defensively at the PF position. The ball-handling, passing & outside shooting (volume, versatility of attempts) all better. On defense, Barnes better defends the perimeter both in man D and team D (rotations).

At the same time, Collins is significantly more efficient, is a better rebounder, and is five years younger.


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Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2022, 01:37:20 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

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If they want Brown for Collins, include Trae Young and another one of their key players and we'll throw in Smart and some picks lol

Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2022, 01:44:50 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Fun trade rumor:

Quote
The 76ers and Hawks briefly kicked around a trade of Ben Simmons and Tobias Harris for John Collins, Bogdan Bogdanovic and Danilo Gallinari, league sources told HoopsHype. However, those talks stalled quickly, with Atlanta uninterested in Harris and unlikely to be able to flip him to a third team.
Source: Michael Scotto @ HoopsHype

That would have improved the Sixers bigly.
Harris for Horford in the trade?
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PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2022, 01:51:51 PM »

Offline Celtics2021

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Fun trade rumor:

Quote
The 76ers and Hawks briefly kicked around a trade of Ben Simmons and Tobias Harris for John Collins, Bogdan Bogdanovic and Danilo Gallinari, league sources told HoopsHype. However, those talks stalled quickly, with Atlanta uninterested in Harris and unlikely to be able to flip him to a third team.
Source: Michael Scotto @ HoopsHype

That would have improved the Sixers bigly.
Harris for Horford in the trade?

Because why?

Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2022, 01:54:24 PM »

Offline todd_days_41

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Fun trade rumor:

Quote
The 76ers and Hawks briefly kicked around a trade of Ben Simmons and Tobias Harris for John Collins, Bogdan Bogdanovic and Danilo Gallinari, league sources told HoopsHype. However, those talks stalled quickly, with Atlanta uninterested in Harris and unlikely to be able to flip him to a third team.
Source: Michael Scotto @ HoopsHype

That would have improved the Sixers bigly.
Harris for Horford in the trade?

Because why?

Agreed -- terrible idea.

Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2022, 01:58:50 PM »

Offline todd_days_41

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At this point, I think Harrison Barnes is a better value for a stretch 4.

Agreed. Barnes is a more well-rounded player offensively and defensively at the PF position. The ball-handling, passing & outside shooting (volume, versatility of attempts) all better. On defense, Barnes better defends the perimeter both in man D and team D (rotations).

At the same time, Collins is significantly more efficient, is a better rebounder, and is five years younger.

Depends on how you define "value". The Kings would be stupid not to trade Barnes before the deadline. How much can they really get for Barnes at this point? And it'd be even less this summer. Frankly, they should have dealt him at least years deadline.

So Barnes may be excellent value at this point. I'd think a decent first round pick is his trade market.

Collins? I'm sure ATL will ask for the moon for him, so you're mortgaging your future to get a guy who probably should be a third fiddle player, but doesn't embrace that fact.


Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2022, 02:18:10 PM »

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Collins? I'm sure ATL will ask for the moon for him, so you're mortgaging your future to get a guy who probably should be a third fiddle player, but doesn't embrace that fact.
The way I view Collins is that he is a scoring orientated player. I agree that he will likely be the 3rd fiddle on a title contender but it needs to be the 3rd fiddle on a team that allows him to be a 20-23ppg scorer. That builds a space for him in their offense. That puts a stretch 5 next to him. That gives him post ups.

What I don't like for Collins is the idea that he is a 3rd fiddle player who has to adapt to a smaller role because he is not a well rounded enough player to make a big impact for his team consistently in a smaller role. He has to get those touches, get those shot attempts.

So you probably need to pair him with a star player (one of your top 2 stars) that are multi-dimensional enough to make space for him. To give Collins the space he needs to be effective and happy in his role.


Let me try saying this another way. I do not view Collins as a one-size fits all situations type player. I do not view him as someone who will automatically be effective as a 3rd fiddle on all top teams. I view him as someone who has specific set of strengths and specific set of weaknesses and if a team builds around those strengths and weaknesses and allows him to play to those strengths he can then be a highly effective 3rd fiddle. If they do not build around those strengths and weaknesses, I expect Collins to continue to be a highly inconsistent and flawed 3rd fiddle.

Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2022, 02:40:41 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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What has Collins become as a defender and a passer? He used to be pretty bad.

Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2022, 05:16:23 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Fun trade rumor:

Quote
The 76ers and Hawks briefly kicked around a trade of Ben Simmons and Tobias Harris for John Collins, Bogdan Bogdanovic and Danilo Gallinari, league sources told HoopsHype. However, those talks stalled quickly, with Atlanta uninterested in Harris and unlikely to be able to flip him to a third team.
Source: Michael Scotto @ HoopsHype

That would have improved the Sixers bigly.
Harris for Horford in the trade?

Because why?
Harris is clearly overpaid, but he'd also be a pretty solid 3rd wheel to Tatum and Brown (19/7/4 with decent shooting efficiency) and would cost nothing but Horford to acquire.  And as his contract years tick off he is easier and easier to move if it doesn't work out.  He is still in his 20's as well so you wouldn't expect him to tail off during the life on the contract. 

In other words, Harris would make the team better and wouldn't cost any assets to acquire.  That seems like a decent value proposition even with Tobias being overpaid.
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PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2022, 06:01:42 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I am interested in how people rank these layers:

John Collins
Tobias Harris
Porzingis

People seem pretty down on Harris but is Collins really all that much better?  And where does Porzingis fit in this?

People seem to think Harris could be available for Horford (so essentially nothing).  Would Collins be available for Smart?

Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2022, 06:07:55 PM »

Offline Celtics2021

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I am interested in how people rank these layers:

John Collins
Tobias Harris
Porzingis

People seem pretty down on Harris but is Collins really all that much better?  And where does Porzingis fit in this?

People seem to think Harris could be available for Horford (so essentially nothing).  Would Collins be available for Smart?

The substantial difference in salaries is really the point.  I do think Collins is better, but even if Harris were better, he’s not $14 million/year over the next 2.5 seasons better.  Same goes with Porzingis (and Collins certainly has a better medical history than Zinger to boot when talking about Porzingis).  Teams have budgets, and you can essentially afford another starter-level player with Collins for the same salary as either of the other two.

Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2022, 06:16:55 PM »

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I am interested in how people rank these layers:

John Collins
Tobias Harris
Porzingis

People seem pretty down on Harris but is Collins really all that much better?  And where does Porzingis fit in this?

People seem to think Harris could be available for Horford (so essentially nothing).  Would Collins be available for Smart?

I'd rank them closely to one another. Guessing these rankings but I expect Tobias Harris is around 10th-12th among PFs, John Collins 12-15th and Porzignis around 15th or lower.

Porzingis could play center where I would rank him as a top 10 center and possibly a top 5 center if he commits more to defense & rebounding. Neither T.Harris or J.Collins has that upside. Then again, neither has his injury risk either. I would stay away from Porzingis.

Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2022, 08:29:40 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I am interested in how people rank these layers:

John Collins
Tobias Harris
Porzingis

People seem pretty down on Harris but is Collins really all that much better?  And where does Porzingis fit in this?

People seem to think Harris could be available for Horford (so essentially nothing).  Would Collins be available for Smart?

The substantial difference in salaries is really the point.  I do think Collins is better, but even if Harris were better, he’s not $14 million/year over the next 2.5 seasons better.  Same goes with Porzingis (and Collins certainly has a better medical history than Zinger to boot when talking about Porzingis).  Teams have budgets, and you can essentially afford another starter-level player with Collins for the same salary as either of the other two.
Sure but it also will take a lot less to acquire Harris as opposed to Collins, which is why if we could get Harris for basically just Horford I think you have to do it
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: The price for John Collins
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2022, 09:26:37 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I am interested in how people rank these layers:

John Collins
Tobias Harris
Porzingis

People seem pretty down on Harris but is Collins really all that much better?  And where does Porzingis fit in this?

People seem to think Harris could be available for Horford (so essentially nothing).  Would Collins be available for Smart?

I'd rank them closely to one another. Guessing these rankings but I expect Tobias Harris is around 10th-12th among PFs, John Collins 12-15th and Porzignis around 15th or lower.

Porzingis could play center where I would rank him as a top 10 center and possibly a top 5 center if he commits more to defense & rebounding. Neither T.Harris or J.Collins has that upside. Then again, neither has his injury risk either. I would stay away from Porzingis.

I guess most are seeing them as having fairly equal value in terms of on court but the contracts are different and I agree that they are different players.

I actually don't see Harris as a "big" (natural position C or PF).  I know he often plays the second big for the Sixers but at best he is more of a swing, probably less of a big than say Marcus Morris.   Harris is listed at 6'-7".  Contract aside, he could fit well for us.  He could be the one playing the swing vs. Tatum.  I don't see him as the ideal fit for what I feel we need in a big but I think he would help a lot.  I doubt we could get him but maybe the Horford-Schroder offer would do it.  It is a ton of money but I think we would be very good.

With Collins, I am not sure if he is really a big either.  At $23M, it is going to cost us Smart plus more.  Other than the contract, I am not sure that Collins would be any better than Harris for us  I actually think that I prefer Harris.  Neither is really a big, maybe Collins leans a little more that way.  But if we have to give up Smart + ? ? ?, I just don't see it.

With Porzingis, he is a natural big.  I feel he would be perfect (when healthy) next to RWilliams.  He could  also be the small ball center (that so many love) or he could be the C with GWilliams or another more PF type.  I am thinking that Horford and Schroder plus maybe a pick could get him.  It comes down to durability.

Bottom line, probably none of these get done, Harris has a toxic contract, Collins we have to give up too much, and Porzingis there are durability issues.  Of these, my first choice would be Porzingis for Horford, Schroder, and a pick some time in the future (not this year).