Author Topic: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value  (Read 2522 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2021, 11:12:14 PM »

Online Moranis

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27534
  • Tommy Points: 1313
I'd inquire about Michael Porter, Jr.

Porter, Barton, Bol Bol, Campazzo

for

Horford, Nesmith, 22 1st, 24 1st (top 4)

Obvious risk on the back, but the type of move that could pay off big time.

What an epically bad idea.

Taking in that contract not knowing if he will ever play again could be worse than the vin baker trade.
A risk no doubt, but a risk that could pay off tremendously.  At some point Boston is going to have to throw all its chips on the table and make a move, and given how few assets the team actually has, a risky move is probably what is out there. 
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2021, 11:27:53 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • NCE
  • Bob Cousy
  • **************************
  • Posts: 26791
  • Tommy Points: 9649
I'd inquire about Michael Porter, Jr.

Porter, Barton, Bol Bol, Campazzo

for

Horford, Nesmith, 22 1st, 24 1st (top 4)

Obvious risk on the back, but the type of move that could pay off big time.

What an epically bad idea.

Taking in that contract not knowing if he will ever play again could be worse than the vin baker trade.
A risk no doubt, but a risk that could pay off tremendously.  At some point Boston is going to have to throw all its chips on the table and make a move, and given how few assets the team actually has, a risky move is probably what is out there.
it's one thing to argue for a trade for Simmons whose issues aren't health but attitude (and lack of nerve in crunch time) but Porter's situation is mostly health and his apparent scheme to hide it for a big payday.  that not only brings to mind Vin Baker but Marc Blount as well.  fool me once, shame on me.  fool me twice, blame Moranis.

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2021, 11:51:49 PM »

Offline Walker Wiggle

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 519
  • Tommy Points: 95
Most sensible strategy for the Celtics is to hope Horford continues to play well this season and look to package his expiring contract plus other players and picks for another all-star. This has always been the primary goal; donít overthink it.

Spirit of what the OP said is correct: Horfordís contract is now attractive for more than just salary flexibility. If the Celtics trade him in the offseason, itís possible that the receiving team turns around and flips him to a contender for a pick or young player. Thatís really useful for the Celtics in that it may help them preserve an asset or two if and when they try and catch a big fish.

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2021, 11:58:18 PM »

Offline celticsclay

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12429
  • Tommy Points: 1262
I'd inquire about Michael Porter, Jr.

Porter, Barton, Bol Bol, Campazzo

for

Horford, Nesmith, 22 1st, 24 1st (top 4)

Obvious risk on the back, but the type of move that could pay off big time.

What an epically bad idea.

Taking in that contract not knowing if he will ever play again could be worse than the vin baker trade.
A risk no doubt, but a risk that could pay off tremendously.  At some point Boston is going to have to throw all its chips on the table and make a move, and given how few assets the team actually has, a risky move is probably what is out there.

I donít disagree we need either a big break/getting lucky (time lord becoming a star) or a somewhat risky trade like going for simmons not knowing if he is mentally well enough to play. Heck I would even be ok with going after someone like Murray if we get a discount cause of injury. Ongoing back issues going back to college this seems a lot more like Brandon roy or greg oden than a potential embid like situation.

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2021, 12:14:53 AM »

Offline jambr380

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11827
  • Tommy Points: 1523
  • Everybody knows what's best for you
Man, how good would Jamal Murray be for this team? Not going to happen, but good call cc!

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2021, 03:14:41 AM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1077
  • Tommy Points: 39
Would be funny to ship him, SchrŲder and picks to Philly for Simmons. Firmly believe Simmons is going to be a monster on his next team. If he improves his shooting, he has top 5 potential (alongside maybe 5-10 people outside the top 5 right now), and he can likely be bought quite low at the deadline.

This is a potential championship rotation in 2022-2023 with Simmons as our Point Forward:

Smart/Pritchard
Brown/Richardson
Tatum/Nesmith
Simmons/Hernangomez
Timelord/Freedom
1956-57, 1958-59, 1959-60, 1960-61, 1961-62, 1962-63, 1963-64, 1964-65, 1965-66, 1967-68, 1968-69, 1973-74, 1975-76, 1980-81, 1983-84, 1985-86, 2007-08

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2021, 09:11:59 AM »

Online Moranis

  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27534
  • Tommy Points: 1313
I'd inquire about Michael Porter, Jr.

Porter, Barton, Bol Bol, Campazzo

for

Horford, Nesmith, 22 1st, 24 1st (top 4)

Obvious risk on the back, but the type of move that could pay off big time.

What an epically bad idea.

Taking in that contract not knowing if he will ever play again could be worse than the vin baker trade.
A risk no doubt, but a risk that could pay off tremendously.  At some point Boston is going to have to throw all its chips on the table and make a move, and given how few assets the team actually has, a risky move is probably what is out there.

I donít disagree we need either a big break/getting lucky (time lord becoming a star) or a somewhat risky trade like going for simmons not knowing if he is mentally well enough to play. Heck I would even be ok with going after someone like Murray if we get a discount cause of injury. Ongoing back issues going back to college this seems a lot more like Brandon roy or greg oden than a potential embid like situation.
Boston isn't acquiring Simmons without trading Brown though and even then Philly still may not trade him to Boston. 

Boston is going to have to do something risky in my mind to take the next level because the team just doing what it has been doing is not going to compete for a title with the current group of players.  And the longer the status quo is, the harder it will be to make the move.  I'm not sure going after MPJ is the correct move, but that is absolutely the type of move the team needs to be looking at.  Buying low on a guy with the hope that it works out because if it does, then Boston could actually compete for a title with the current group.  That is why I've been pushing a trade for someone like Bagley i.e. a talented guy that hasn't lived up to it.  Because if Bagley does figure it out, then you have a guy that could be a great 2nd/3rd option type player who positionally compliments your two best players.  Boston isn't rebuilding, but it isn't really competing either, so taking a step back this year in a move that opens up a much larger ceiling going forward should be what Stevens is looking at because that really is the only way I see Boston competing for a title any time soon without hitting a grand slam in the bottom of the 9th inning in the draft.
2021 Historical Draft - 5th Pick - Raptors
PG - Tiny Archibald 73, Don Buse 77, Terrell Brandon 96
SG - Chet Walker 67, Michael Cooper 87, Raja Bell 06
SF - Predrag "Peja" Stojakovic 04, Kiki Vandeweghe 87, Robert Covington 18
PF - Karl Malone 97, Spencer Haywood 73, David West 08
C - Ben Wallace 04, George Mikan 50, Al Jefferson 08

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2021, 09:12:54 AM »

Online todd_days_41

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1025
  • Tommy Points: 38
Some chains spiral into an orgy of poor trade ideas.

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2021, 09:34:21 AM »

Offline Jvalin

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3516
  • Tommy Points: 342
Man, how good would Jamal Murray be for this team? Not going to happen, but good call cc!
I actually think Murray would be a bad fit on the Celtics. Last thing we need is a high-usage, score-first guard who'd be taking shots away from the Jays. Imo, we'd be better off with a low-usage, pass-first ball handler. Ideally, an oversized guard, cause Tatum and Brown excel at switching ball screens on defense. For instance, someone in the mold of Haliburton (pipe dream), Satoransky or Delon Wright. Simmons ticks all the boxes as well, but I'd rather use him as Point Center.

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2021, 09:49:54 AM »

Offline jambr380

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11827
  • Tommy Points: 1523
  • Everybody knows what's best for you
Man, how good would Jamal Murray be for this team? Not going to happen, but good call cc!
I actually think Murray would be a bad fit on the Celtics. Last thing we need is a high-usage, score-first guard who'd be taking shots away from the Jays. Imo, we'd be better off with a low-usage, pass-first ball handler. Ideally, an oversized guard, cause Tatum and Brown excel at switching ball screens on defense. For instance, someone in the mold of Haliburton (pipe dream), Satoransky or Delon Wright. Simmons ticks all the boxes as well, but I'd rather use him as Point Center.

Oh, I definitely think we are at our best with a high usage scoring PG. That is what Danny was trying to do for years and we are seeing the drop off the last two years with Kemba's decline last season and a non-All-Star talent there this season. And even still, we are riding Schroder as much as possible. Bring in Murray, then figure out if you need to deal Jaylen if it's not working out. I feel the same way about Beal. And I'd obviously be ecstatic with Steph, Trae, or Luka (lol).

Sure, it would be great to get a true pass first PG, but even then I just don't think the desired effect will be there. It's not like Nash, Stockton, or Kidd are available.

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2021, 10:11:23 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6538
  • Tommy Points: 523
I'd inquire about Michael Porter, Jr.

Porter, Barton, Bol Bol, Campazzo

for

Horford, Nesmith, 22 1st, 24 1st (top 4)

Obvious risk on the back, but the type of move that could pay off big time.

What an epically bad idea.

Taking in that contract not knowing if he will ever play again could be worse than the vin baker trade.
A risk no doubt, but a risk that could pay off tremendously.  At some point Boston is going to have to throw all its chips on the table and make a move, and given how few assets the team actually has, a risky move is probably what is out there.
Spotrac says Porter can't be traded until July 2022 so I guess this would have to be an off season trade.  Maybe by then it is more clear what is up with his back.

As to the risk, he is going to miss this whole season but he is "only" getting paid $5M this season.  The big money does not kick in until 2022-23.  I suspect that Denver knew about his health situation.  If he had withheld anything, I would think it would be easy enough to void the contract.  There may also be protections in the contract although nothing specific has been reported.

Hopefully for Denver and Porter, this surgery fixes his back and he can play next season.  I see no reason to trade for him though.  Healthy he would be a great fit but healthy, Denver would not trade him for what we could offer.  If he is broken, he retires a wealthy man and becomes an injury exemption for Denver.

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2021, 10:28:13 AM »

Offline greg683x

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3693
  • Tommy Points: 552
We finally have some guys that perform (above their standards?) and we gonna look to trade 'm?

>_<

Dang son. Can we just keep someone for a bit? Have you seen how happy this guy and his fam is to live in Boston again?

We need to stop calling him Trader Danny cuz we way worse here on this board :')


I agree for the most part, and Iíd choose to keep Al at this point instead of trading him, but he showed us no loyalty when Philly wanted to pluck him away from us, so in his case, Iíd leave his feelings out of it in these scenarios

Didn't the C's just offer a stupid low amount? That's what I thought the narrative there was.


I donít think it was stupid low.  Iím pretty sure we were offering a 3 year deal and Philly was offering a 4th.  We caved and offered a 4th year but Al went with Philly bc they offered more guaranteed money.

Al also said that Philly offered a better chance at a championship.


All of these are reasonable excuses but theyíre clearly all about whatís best for him.  Thatís fine.  But thatís also why I would remove any loyalty we think we should show him now if we see something come up thatís good for the Cís over what he would prefer
Greg

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2021, 11:57:47 AM »

Offline Jvalin

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3516
  • Tommy Points: 342
Man, how good would Jamal Murray be for this team? Not going to happen, but good call cc!
I actually think Murray would be a bad fit on the Celtics. Last thing we need is a high-usage, score-first guard who'd be taking shots away from the Jays. Imo, we'd be better off with a low-usage, pass-first ball handler. Ideally, an oversized guard, cause Tatum and Brown excel at switching ball screens on defense. For instance, someone in the mold of Haliburton (pipe dream), Satoransky or Delon Wright. Simmons ticks all the boxes as well, but I'd rather use him as Point Center.

Oh, I definitely think we are at our best with a high usage scoring PG. That is what Danny was trying to do for years and we are seeing the drop off the last two years with Kemba's decline last season and a non-All-Star talent there this season. And even still, we are riding Schroder as much as possible. Bring in Murray, then figure out if you need to deal Jaylen if it's not working out. I feel the same way about Beal. And I'd obviously be ecstatic with Steph, Trae, or Luka (lol).

Sure, it would be great to get a true pass first PG, but even then I just don't think the desired effect will be there. It's not like Nash, Stockton, or Kidd are available.
Agreed that Danny envisioned this team with a score-first PG running the show. Two points on this:
  • The Jays were very young at the time. Kyrie was our 1st option. Kemba was our second option in 2019 behind only Tatum.
  • What were the results with a dominant score-first PG? We were better off without Kyrie in the playoffs. Kemba never really clicked with the Jays apart from the first half of the 2019/20 season. Brown was our 3rd option at the time. Obviously, Kemba wasn't the same player after the 2020 All-Star game because of his injury.
And even still, we are riding Schroder as much as possible.
Not true. When both Tatum and Brown are available, Schroder comes off the bench. Why? Probably because he's taking shots away from the Jays. Schroder's best games were during Brown's absence due to his injury.

The way I see it, we cannot have 3 alphas in the starting lineup. There won't be enough shots for everybody and we'll end up a dysfunctional team. Let's assume we somehow land Murray. Chances are we'd have to use Brown off the ball in the half court. He'd probably be our best option in the open court. From Brown's perspective, would he be happy in a 3+D role in the half court? From Brad's perspective, would it be worth it to pay a close-to-max contract for a 3+D player? I mean, we wouldn't be maximizing his skill set anymore.

Don't get me wrong, if we could acquire Murray on the cheap, I'd do it and I'd figure out the supporting cast later. Just saying that I don't think he'd be a nice fit on the Celtics. Btw, I'm very low on Murray's BBIQ. He's excellent at creating his own shot. Not so much at creating shots for his teammates. It ain't a problem on the Nuggets cause he's playing alongside an elite court general in Jokic. One of our biggest issues is ball movement. I reckon the situation would have been even worse with Murray running the point.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2021, 12:35:59 PM by Jvalin »

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2021, 02:25:46 PM »

Offline Big333223

  • NCE
  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6660
  • Tommy Points: 684
(click on image to enlarge)


Why for the Raps:
- To a large extent, Siakam and Scottie Barnes cancel each other out. Plenty of Raps fans are ready to move on from Siakam.
- They need a starting-caliber Center. Horford would be a mentor for their young players, plus he'd be a solid contributor from day 1. Their starting Center right now is Achiuwa, but that's cause they miss Anunoby. When everyone is healthy, Siakam starts at Center.
- Siakam ain't crafty enough as a scorer to be the go-to guy, yet he's paid like a go-to guy. Plenty of Raps fans think he's overpaid.

Would the Raps say yes? Hard to say. An unprotected first + a recent lotto pick + a solid vet who fits their needs seems like fair value in my book. That said, I bet they'd ask for Timelord.
Siakam is one to keep an eye on. I think he'd be the perfect compliment to the J's, he can play PF next to Timelord and slide down to play smallball center at times as well.

The Raptors are 9-13 and probably starting to think rebuild. The C's have all their own picks plus a couple of young guys stashed overseas they could throw into a deal.

That said, as excited as Al was to be back in Boston and as excited as I've been to have him back, I'd rather finish out the season with him here and visit this in the offseason.
1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1984, 1986, 2008

Re: Horford Contract Has Real Trade Value
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2021, 02:29:02 PM »

Offline celticsclay

  • Frank Ramsey
  • ************
  • Posts: 12429
  • Tommy Points: 1262
I'd inquire about Michael Porter, Jr.

Porter, Barton, Bol Bol, Campazzo

for

Horford, Nesmith, 22 1st, 24 1st (top 4)

Obvious risk on the back, but the type of move that could pay off big time.

What an epically bad idea.

Taking in that contract not knowing if he will ever play again could be worse than the vin baker trade.
A risk no doubt, but a risk that could pay off tremendously.  At some point Boston is going to have to throw all its chips on the table and make a move, and given how few assets the team actually has, a risky move is probably what is out there.

I donít disagree we need either a big break/getting lucky (time lord becoming a star) or a somewhat risky trade like going for simmons not knowing if he is mentally well enough to play. Heck I would even be ok with going after someone like Murray if we get a discount cause of injury. Ongoing back issues going back to college this seems a lot more like Brandon roy or greg oden than a potential embid like situation.
Boston isn't acquiring Simmons without trading Brown though and even then Philly still may not trade him to Boston. 

Boston is going to have to do something risky in my mind to take the next level because the team just doing what it has been doing is not going to compete for a title with the current group of players.  And the longer the status quo is, the harder it will be to make the move.  I'm not sure going after MPJ is the correct move, but that is absolutely the type of move the team needs to be looking at.  Buying low on a guy with the hope that it works out because if it does, then Boston could actually compete for a title with the current group.  That is why I've been pushing a trade for someone like Bagley i.e. a talented guy that hasn't lived up to it.  Because if Bagley does figure it out, then you have a guy that could be a great 2nd/3rd option type player who positionally compliments your two best players.  Boston isn't rebuilding, but it isn't really competing either, so taking a step back this year in a move that opens up a much larger ceiling going forward should be what Stevens is looking at because that really is the only way I see Boston competing for a title any time soon without hitting a grand slam in the bottom of the 9th inning in the draft.

Mo I am also down with the bagley idea. I almost put him in my post but figured people would not consider him enough upside at this point (i still think he could be a star and fit well here). That being said I am into just about anyone besides mpj. I just think he is significantly more likely to never make it through a full season than ever make an all star game and his contract is just two long. It would kill us for 4 years or whatever if he canít come back. I also agree it is unlikely Philly would trade us if we didnít blow them away with an overpay. My KAT dreams have also gone out the window with the improved play of Minnesota. Beal forcing his way here to play with his buddy seems like the kind of break we need. But that stuff seems to only happen to the Lakers and not us.