Are we the same as the early 2000's ?

[gouki88]

Until Tatum can get to the free throw line like Pierce did, im still taking Paul as the better player.  Especially in a playoff game

Tatum averaged nearly 10 free throw attempts a game in the playoff series against Brooklyn. Tatum is also 7% from the FT line over his first 4 years than Pierce was

That’s one series dude.  Yes it’s a playoff series but it’s one.

FTA per game Jayson Tatum
2017- 3.2
2018 - 2.9
2019- 4.7
2020- 5.3

In Pierces best years he’s averaging 8, 9, and 10 FTA per game.

Tatum is on an upward trend but he still has a lot work to do to get to the line like Pierce did.  If Tatum ever does, he’ll be a top 3 player in the league, and then yes, I’d definitely take him over Pierce

You mentioned the playoffs. In Tatum's most recent playoff display he was getting to the line at the same rate Piece did. From April onwards Tatum was averaging 7 FTAs per game before bumping that to 10 in the playoffs.

I think given Tatum started his career at 19 vs PP at 21 it shouldn't be too surprising that his free throw drawing is taking longer to come on. But it is coming on, which is what matters.

[greg683x]

Until Tatum can get to the free throw line like Pierce did, im still taking Paul as the better player.  Especially in a playoff game

Tatum averaged nearly 10 free throw attempts a game in the playoff series against Brooklyn. Tatum is also 7% from the FT line over his first 4 years than Pierce was

That’s one series dude.  Yes it’s a playoff series but it’s one.

FTA per game Jayson Tatum
2017- 3.2
2018 - 2.9
2019- 4.7
2020- 5.3

In Pierces best years he’s averaging 8, 9, and 10 FTA per game.

Tatum is on an upward trend but he still has a lot work to do to get to the line like Pierce did.  If Tatum ever does, he’ll be a top 3 player in the league, and then yes, I’d definitely take him over Pierce

You mentioned the playoffs. In Tatum's most recent playoff display he was getting to the line at the same rate Piece did. From April onwards Tatum was averaging 7 FTAs per game before bumping that to 10 in the playoffs.

I think given Tatum started his career at 19 vs PP at 21 it shouldn't be too surprising that his free throw drawing is taking longer to come on. But it is coming on, which is what matters.

No argument there.  If he can make those numbers last a whole season then that will be enough of a sample size for me to acknowledge he’s elevated that part of his game

[greg683x]

Until Tatum can get to the free throw line like Pierce did, im still taking Paul as the better player.  Especially in a playoff game

Tatum averaged nearly 10 free throw attempts a game in the playoff series against Brooklyn. Tatum is also 7% from the FT line over his first 4 years than Pierce was

That’s one series dude.  Yes it’s a playoff series but it’s one.

FTA per game Jayson Tatum
2017- 3.2
2018 - 2.9
2019- 4.7
2020- 5.3

In Pierces best years he’s averaging 8, 9, and 10 FTA per game.

Tatum is on an upward trend but he still has a lot work to do to get to the line like Pierce did.  If Tatum ever does, he’ll be a top 3 player in the league, and then yes, I’d definitely take him over Pierce

1) This thread is about 2001 not Pierce’s best years.

2) This thread is about who is better, not simply FTAs.

Lol which is it?  Is it about 2001 or who is better?  You don’t seem to even know.  Maybe one discussion spawned another??

If a discussion started about if Tatum is a better player than Pierce yet, then I can certainly use Pierces best years as a measuring stick. 

[Who]

Tatum is closing in on Pierce but he is not there yet.

[Moranis]

Until Tatum can get to the free throw line like Pierce did, im still taking Paul as the better player.  Especially in a playoff game

Tatum averaged nearly 10 free throw attempts a game in the playoff series against Brooklyn. Tatum is also 7% from the FT line over his first 4 years than Pierce was

That’s one series dude.  Yes it’s a playoff series but it’s one.

FTA per game Jayson Tatum
2017- 3.2
2018 - 2.9
2019- 4.7
2020- 5.3

In Pierces best years he’s averaging 8, 9, and 10 FTA per game.

Tatum is on an upward trend but he still has a lot work to do to get to the line like Pierce did.  If Tatum ever does, he’ll be a top 3 player in the league, and then yes, I’d definitely take him over Pierce

1) This thread is about 2001 not Pierce’s best years.

2) This thread is about who is better, not simply FTAs.

Lol which is it?  Is it about 2001 or who is better?  You don’t seem to even know.  Maybe one discussion spawned another??

If a discussion started about if Tatum is a better player than Pierce yet, then I can certainly use Pierces best years as a measuring stick.

the thread is pretty clearly about the early 2000's when Pierce wasn't yet in his prime. 

That said Pierce had 9 FTA's in his 3rd season i.e. 2000-01 and after his rookie year his FTr was above 40% every season until he got old towards the end of his time in Boston.  Tatum does not generate foul shots at anywhere near that level, but he makes up for it with more 3 point attempts at a better percentage, which is why his TS% is better than Pierce's through 4 seasons. 

Tatum is trending like a significantly better player than Pierce will ever be.  For as good as Pierce was, he only ended up with one 2nd team and three 3rd team all nba in his entire career.  Tatum already has one 3rd team and it seems like his career will end up far below expectations if he doesn't easily eclipse Pierce's numbers in that regard.  Per 36 through 4 seasons they have pretty similar numbers, but Tatum's 4th year was by far the best season either of them had and Tatum is two years younger than Pierce was during those seasons. 

Tatum's supporting cast is better as well and not just Brown over Walker, but top to bottom.  So I don't really get the comparison between the two teams. 

[smokeablount]

Until Tatum can get to the free throw line like Pierce did, im still taking Paul as the better player.  Especially in a playoff game

Tatum averaged nearly 10 free throw attempts a game in the playoff series against Brooklyn. Tatum is also 7% from the FT line over his first 4 years than Pierce was

That’s one series dude.  Yes it’s a playoff series but it’s one.

FTA per game Jayson Tatum
2017- 3.2
2018 - 2.9
2019- 4.7
2020- 5.3

In Pierces best years he’s averaging 8, 9, and 10 FTA per game.

Tatum is on an upward trend but he still has a lot work to do to get to the line like Pierce did.  If Tatum ever does, he’ll be a top 3 player in the league, and then yes, I’d definitely take him over Pierce

1) This thread is about 2001 not Pierce’s best years.

2) This thread is about who is better, not simply FTAs.

Lol which is it?  Is it about 2001 or who is better?  You don’t seem to even know.  Maybe one discussion spawned another??

If a discussion started about if Tatum is a better player than Pierce yet, then I can certainly use Pierces best years as a measuring stick.

Jeez, you gotta work on your reading comprehension. It’s about who is better, Pierce in 2001 or Tatum this past year, and Pierce being better at getting to the line is one element of that and not the end all be all.

[Celtics2021]

Until Tatum can get to the free throw line like Pierce did, im still taking Paul as the better player.  Especially in a playoff game

Tatum averaged nearly 10 free throw attempts a game in the playoff series against Brooklyn. Tatum is also 7% from the FT line over his first 4 years than Pierce was

That’s one series dude.  Yes it’s a playoff series but it’s one.

FTA per game Jayson Tatum
2017- 3.2
2018 - 2.9
2019- 4.7
2020- 5.3

In Pierces best years he’s averaging 8, 9, and 10 FTA per game.

Tatum is on an upward trend but he still has a lot work to do to get to the line like Pierce did.  If Tatum ever does, he’ll be a top 3 player in the league, and then yes, I’d definitely take him over Pierce

You mentioned the playoffs. In Tatum's most recent playoff display he was getting to the line at the same rate Piece did. From April onwards Tatum was averaging 7 FTAs per game before bumping that to 10 in the playoffs.

I think given Tatum started his career at 19 vs PP at 21 it shouldn't be too surprising that his free throw drawing is taking longer to come on. But it is coming on, which is what matters.

And I don’t know what to call the play-in game, but I do know he went 17-17 from the line in it, scoring 50 while leading his team to the official playoffs.

[droopdog7]

Yeah, posters are going to push back at the OP but I think this post is completely fair.  And while it’s possible that we have a better supporting cast, Rob is really the only guy that had the opportunity to be nothing more than a JAG.  For all the love that Marcus gets he’s a below average staring PG.  Everyone else is just a guy too.

The supporting cast just not jump out in any other way.  No stars.

The comparison between the two stars also fair.  I think brown ends up better than Antoine (he’s there now) but relatively speaking we’ll see.  Jaylen somewhere between 20-25 and that was Antoine peak too.  Tatum might end up better than PP but he hasn’t reached his height just yet.  And has been said, PP was fantastic at getting to the line.  Tatum needs to get there, and improve playmaking to surpass him.

Pierce was better at getting to the line, but Tatum makes up for that in spades by shooting threes. Pierce over his 5 year All Star run in the early 2000's shot 4.7 threes a game at 34.8%. During Tatum's two All Star years thus far, Jayson is shooting 7.3 threes per game hitting them at 39.4%. Over the next 3 years, I expect both Tatum's FTA and 3PTA will increase at higher shooting percentiles than Pierce.

I love Paul Pierce, but Tatum is a much, much better player at every age you compare them at. If Tatum is a Celtic for life, he probably breaks Havlicek's scoring record.

It’s a different game.  Everybody is better at threes and shoots more of them.  But we’re talking relative to the league here.

[droopdog7]

Yeah, posters are going to push back at the OP but I think this post is completely fair.  And while it’s possible that we have a better supporting cast, Rob is really the only guy that had the opportunity to be nothing more than a JAG.  For all the love that Marcus gets he’s a below average staring PG.  Everyone else is just a guy too.

The supporting cast just not jump out in any other way.  No stars.

The comparison between the two stars also fair.  I think brown ends up better than Antoine (he’s there now) but relatively speaking we’ll see.  Jaylen somewhere between 20-25 and that was Antoine peak too.  Tatum might end up better than PP but he hasn’t reached his height just yet.  And has been said, PP was fantastic at getting to the line.  Tatum needs to get there, and improve playmaking to surpass him.

One thing we can say about the early 2000s C’s is that they can’t be any better than they were. If Toine and Pierce early 2000s are about equal to the Jays right now - the Jays may surpass them in 2021-22. And that isn’t a pipe dream - they are 23 and 24 and both are on an upward trajectory.

Sure.  But, will they become good enough to ever do anything more than what PP and AW did (eastern conference finals) and if not, how will we get players to help them if they can’t do it themselves?

The comparison is completely fair.

[nickagneta]

Yeah, posters are going to push back at the OP but I think this post is completely fair.  And while it’s possible that we have a better supporting cast, Rob is really the only guy that had the opportunity to be nothing more than a JAG.  For all the love that Marcus gets he’s a below average staring PG.  Everyone else is just a guy too.

The supporting cast just not jump out in any other way.  No stars.

The comparison between the two stars also fair.  I think brown ends up better than Antoine (he’s there now) but relatively speaking we’ll see.  Jaylen somewhere between 20-25 and that was Antoine peak too.  Tatum might end up better than PP but he hasn’t reached his height just yet.  And has been said, PP was fantastic at getting to the line.  Tatum needs to get there, and improve playmaking to surpass him.

Pierce was better at getting to the line, but Tatum makes up for that in spades by shooting threes. Pierce over his 5 year All Star run in the early 2000's shot 4.7 threes a game at 34.8%. During Tatum's two All Star years thus far, Jayson is shooting 7.3 threes per game hitting them at 39.4%. Over the next 3 years, I expect both Tatum's FTA and 3PTA will increase at higher shooting percentiles than Pierce.

I love Paul Pierce, but Tatum is a much, much better player at every age you compare them at. If Tatum is a Celtic for life, he probably breaks Havlicek's scoring record.

It’s a different game.  Everybody is better at threes and shoots more of them.  But we’re talking relative to the league here.

Relative to the league, in Pierce's first All-Star run the league 3PT% was 35%, so Pierce was average to below average during that time period.

During Tatum's All-Star run the league average was 36% so Tatum was approaching well above average to elite three point shooting.

Relative to the rest of the league, that is. Fact is, young Tatum is a superior shooter than young Pierce ever was, from all areas on the floor including the charity stripe.

[droopdog7]

Yeah, posters are going to push back at the OP but I think this post is completely fair.  And while it’s possible that we have a better supporting cast, Rob is really the only guy that had the opportunity to be nothing more than a JAG.  For all the love that Marcus gets he’s a below average staring PG.  Everyone else is just a guy too.

The supporting cast just not jump out in any other way.  No stars.

The comparison between the two stars also fair.  I think brown ends up better than Antoine (he’s there now) but relatively speaking we’ll see.  Jaylen somewhere between 20-25 and that was Antoine peak too.  Tatum might end up better than PP but he hasn’t reached his height just yet.  And has been said, PP was fantastic at getting to the line.  Tatum needs to get there, and improve playmaking to surpass him.

Pierce was better at getting to the line, but Tatum makes up for that in spades by shooting threes. Pierce over his 5 year All Star run in the early 2000's shot 4.7 threes a game at 34.8%. During Tatum's two All Star years thus far, Jayson is shooting 7.3 threes per game hitting them at 39.4%. Over the next 3 years, I expect both Tatum's FTA and 3PTA will increase at higher shooting percentiles than Pierce.

I love Paul Pierce, but Tatum is a much, much better player at every age you compare them at. If Tatum is a Celtic for life, he probably breaks Havlicek's scoring record.

It’s a different game.  Everybody is better at threes and shoots more of them.  But we’re talking relative to the league here.

Relative to the league, in Pierce's first All-Star run the league 3PT% was 35%, so Pierce was average to below average during that time period.

During Tatum's All-Star run the league average was 36% so Tatum was approaching well above average to elite three point shooting.

Relative to the rest of the league, that is. Fact is, young Tatum is a superior shooter than young Pierce ever was, from all areas on the floor including the charity stripe.

I guess I didn’t just mean three pointers.  I mean that PP didn’t play in a league that emphasized that shot as much.  He was a star in his era and did it without shooting threes.  He might not be the star he was today with his game but that’s irrelevant. 

[greg683x]

Until Tatum can get to the free throw line like Pierce did, im still taking Paul as the better player.  Especially in a playoff game

Tatum averaged nearly 10 free throw attempts a game in the playoff series against Brooklyn. Tatum is also 7% from the FT line over his first 4 years than Pierce was

That’s one series dude.  Yes it’s a playoff series but it’s one.

FTA per game Jayson Tatum
2017- 3.2
2018 - 2.9
2019- 4.7
2020- 5.3

In Pierces best years he’s averaging 8, 9, and 10 FTA per game.

Tatum is on an upward trend but he still has a lot work to do to get to the line like Pierce did.  If Tatum ever does, he’ll be a top 3 player in the league, and then yes, I’d definitely take him over Pierce

1) This thread is about 2001 not Pierce’s best years.

2) This thread is about who is better, not simply FTAs.

Lol which is it?  Is it about 2001 or who is better?  You don’t seem to even know.  Maybe one discussion spawned another??

If a discussion started about if Tatum is a better player than Pierce yet, then I can certainly use Pierces best years as a measuring stick.

Jeez, you gotta work on your reading comprehension. It’s about who is better, Pierce in 2001 or Tatum this past year, and Pierce being better at getting to the line is one element of that and not the end all be all.

Whether the thread is about 2001 or any other year of Pierces peak, the point still stands.

Of course FTA is just one element of the game.  For me, it’s the biggest difference between the two players at this point or any point in Pierces career.  Tatum has gotten better at getting to the line but we’ll see if he can sustain it.  Right now I feel like the biggest flaw in Tatums game is that if his shot isn’t falling, he tends to disappear.  This is when getting to the line is HUGE.  It’s this reason that right now whether it’s 2001 or 2001-2008 Paul Pierce, I’m still taking Pierce.

Ask me again after this coming season, my answer might change based on the way Tatum was trending towards the end of last season

[tenn_smoothie]

I very well could be and yes, I would say Brown is a better player than Antoine Walker. My comparison is not a perfect match and I hope that I am wrong, but you cannot ignore the similarities and Paul Pierce is better than Jayson Tatum until proven otherwise.

[/b]


Tatum has proven otherwise. I love Pierce, but Tatum’s talent is on another level. I think Jayson is already a better player and he is only 23.

Not until Tatum guts out some significant playoff wins. That's how I measure players.

Tatum has some significant playoff wins. And really, how many did Paul have before Danny put a super team around him? Tatum was the best player on 2 teams that got to the ECF at an age where Paul Pierce was still in college.

I love Paul Pierce, but whether you look at him at age 23 or at the same year of his career that Tatum is at, Tatum is a better player in almost every regard.

Absolutely true that Pierce did not become the gritty, clutch player that he was after Garnett arrived. Garnett changed the culture of the franchise and Pierce matured significantly after that. Tatum has not had enough opportunity yet to show what he can do in higher level playoff games, other than the 7-game ECF series vs Cleveland. He was very good in that series, but did not have enough help to advance to the finals.

But back to the original question ......... are we still going to need a blockbuster move to get to serious contender status or can we get there just adding to our current core and letting them hopefully develop into a championship team. I would say one important factor will be Rob Williams ability to stay healthy and continue to improve. This group will need an upgrade at center in order to seriously contend in the future.

I never stated as a fact that these teams were the same. My post was about the question of the similarities. Personally, I am hoping they turn out not to be, because as I mentioned, the 2000's team declined in subsequent seasons.

[Big333223]

Are we specifically talking about the '02 team that went to the ECF?

We can quibble about who was better between Pierce/Walker and Tatum/Brown but I think the main thing (and the obvious thing) is how much better the rest of the roster is on the '21 and '22 teams.

Who was the third best player on the '02 Celtics? Was it washed up Kenny Anderson averaging 9 points and 5 assists? Or Tony Battie putting up 7 points and 6 rebounds?  The 3rd leading scorer on the team was actually Rodney Rogers, putting up almost 11 ppg in 27 games.

Compare them to '21: Kemba and Smart were both better than Anderson, Theis, Thompson and Timelord were all both better than Battie, and Evan Fournier, despite everything he went through as that team's late-season addition, was better than Rogers.

We can do basically the same thing with the upcoming season. Smart, Schroder, Richardson, Timelord, Horford would likely all have been the 3rd best player on the '02 team. Enes Kanter is going to be the 3rd string center next season and I think you can make an argument he's better than Tony Battie, who was the starter.

This Celtic team is miles ahead of that team of the early 00's.

[gouki88]

Until Tatum can get to the free throw line like Pierce did, im still taking Paul as the better player.  Especially in a playoff game

Tatum averaged nearly 10 free throw attempts a game in the playoff series against Brooklyn. Tatum is also 7% from the FT line over his first 4 years than Pierce was

That’s one series dude.  Yes it’s a playoff series but it’s one.

FTA per game Jayson Tatum
2017- 3.2
2018 - 2.9
2019- 4.7
2020- 5.3

In Pierces best years he’s averaging 8, 9, and 10 FTA per game.

Tatum is on an upward trend but he still has a lot work to do to get to the line like Pierce did.  If Tatum ever does, he’ll be a top 3 player in the league, and then yes, I’d definitely take him over Pierce

You mentioned the playoffs. In Tatum's most recent playoff display he was getting to the line at the same rate Piece did. From April onwards Tatum was averaging 7 FTAs per game before bumping that to 10 in the playoffs.

I think given Tatum started his career at 19 vs PP at 21 it shouldn't be too surprising that his free throw drawing is taking longer to come on. But it is coming on, which is what matters.

And I don’t know what to call the play-in game, but I do know he went 17-17 from the line in it, scoring 50 while leading his team to the official playoffs.

It's like that game has been wiped from history. Neither a regular season game nor a playoff game, but no less important