Should Toni Kukoč Be In the Hall of Fame?

[Kernewek]

My point is that they’re absolutely not comparable players in the slightest.

You’re allowed to dislike Toni Kukoc. You’re allowed to think that he probably shouldn’t be in the hall of fame. That’s perfectly fine. I don’t think he gets in if he isn’t part of The Bulls championships.

But he was on those teams. He had a decent international career and his jump helped to solidify trends that resonate around the NBA to this day. You can be a bloodless stats-vampire like Moranis (no offence to Moranis he’s always interesting but he is bloody minded)

But at least be honest that your mind is made up about the topic.

[gouki88]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer. Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

Again, insisting on "numbers" is where you're going wrong. Kukoc's impact went beyond numbers. Just like Manu Ginobili.

Christian Laettner was a great college player. But he made little contribution to the game of basketball.

I’m not a Dukie, but Laettner is responsible for one of the most repeated highlights in basketball history? In addition, he was the 15th man and only amateur on the 1992 Dream Team. Both of these accomplishments are not HOF worthy, but certainly surpass Toni’s contributions to the game of basketball (again, Vlade already paved the way for Euros years before Toni came into the league).

Sigh. No, they do not. If you think a highlight is worth more than the Yugoslav basketballers paving the way for Jokic, Doncic and the dozen or so other players from what was Yugoslavia then I don't have much more to say to you.

I’ve already acknowledged how Vlade Divac paved the way for Jokic, Doncic and other talented players from what was Yugoslavia. And he did so years before Toni Kukoc joined the NBA…and now I’m going to acknowledge another HOFer I’ve neglected to bring up so far: Petrovic. Two Euro trailblazers who precede Toni…

I find it quite funny that you create a thread to ask a question, and imply that you're willing to listen to other perspectives, yet you stubbornly cling to your US-centric bias for dear life.

I’ve given props to the Soviet who humiliated the USA and national hero David Robinson in 1988, so how is there a US-centric bias at play here? Perhaps you’re clinging to your own bias for dear life?

The more you post, the more ignorant of the history of European basketball you're showing to be.

Vlade Divac and Toni Kukoc played against each other in the same Yugoslav League, stop pretending they're of different generations.
There's a reason Kukoc was #5 in the 1991 FIBA greatest players and Divac didn't appear in the top 10 - they were regarded as being on different levels in Europe. They were both on the 50 Greatest EuroLeague Contributors list. Both are in the FIBA Hall of Fame. It makes perfect sense why both should be in the Basketball HoF. Their accomplishments and impact are very comparable - Divac had more impact within the NBA, Kukoc had more impact outside of it.

Kukoc won FIBA MVPs at different age groups, 3x Croatian Sportsman of the Year, 5x Euroscar POY, 4x Mister Europa POY, the Franjo Bucar award, multiple medals at the Olympics, FIBA, World Champs & EuroBasket, as well as being a really solid NBA level player who sacrificed stats to win rings.

[Who]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

They both went to college here in the USA. That is the difference.

[nickagneta]

Does Ricky Rubio fall into the same boat as Kukoc? Is Rubio a HOFer?

💯 because he’s paved the way for future Spaniards. You can ignore Pau Gasol and give that credit to Rubio instead, ok? Otherwise you’re displaying “US-centric bias.”

I was seriously asking the question because I think Euro and Olympic play has to be seriously considered. Rubio had a bunch of Euro accolades as well. So seriously, does he belong in the HOF? I'm just not sure. Same with Kukoc.

[gouki88]

Does Ricky Rubio fall into the same boat as Kukoc? Is Rubio a HOFer?

💯 because he’s paved the way for future Spaniards. You can ignore Pau Gasol and give that credit to Rubio instead, ok? Otherwise you’re displaying “US-centric bias.”

I was seriously asking the question because I think Euro and Olympic play has to be seriously considered. Rubio had a bunch of Euro accolades as well. So seriously, does he belong in the HOF? I'm just not sure. Same with Kukoc.

It's probably dependent on longevity and if he can get on good teams (like Kukoc and Divac), but he should definitely be in the FIBA HoF

[Neurotic Guy]

I'm having trouble seeing how Euro play preceding NBA has all that much to do with selection to the HOF .  If it's a borderline selection or a unique case such as Arvydas Sabonis, but other than that I don't see it. 

On the other hand, I'll defer to anyone who knows more than I do (which is everyone) about the impact any particular Euro/Int has had on basketball from an outside of the USA perspective.  That argument I can't counter. 

But as far as 4 or 5 years of Euro stats and honors -- I can't see that as too much different than a college phenom (back in the 4-year days) going on to have an above average NBA career.   Let's imagine if Larry Bird after his terrific college play at Indiana State (3 years, 30ppg, 13 rpg, 4.6 apg...) went on to have an above average NBA career for 10 years or so (remember, Bird was 23 his rookie year).   Would anyone think he should be in the HOF?  In fact, most people would have probably considered him a bust. 

[Who]

I'm having trouble seeing how Euro play preceding NBA has all that much to do with selection to the HOF .  If it's a borderline selection or a unique case such as Arvydas Sabonis, but other than that I don't see it. 

On the other hand, I'll defer to anyone who knows more than I do (which is everyone) about the impact any particular Euro/Int has had on basketball from an outside of the USA perspective.  That argument I can't counter. 

But as far as 4 or 5 years of Euro stats and honors -- I can't see that as too much different than a college phenom (back in the 4-year days) going on to have an above average NBA career.   Let's imagine if Larry Bird after his terrific college play at Indiana State (3 years, 30ppg, 13 rpg, 4.6 apg...) went on to have an above average NBA career for 10 years or so (remember, Bird was 23 his rookie year).   Would anyone think he should be in the HOF?  In fact, most people would have probably considered him a bust.

I don't think Euro play preceding the NBA has much impact now in the same way that NCAA play does not have much impact. It is only for the first few guys who made the transition.

Think of it from another angle. If nobody from the NCAA had ever made it to the NBA before then it would be pretty remarkable to see the first couple of guys do it. That is how I see some of those early 90s guys (Marciulionis, Vlade, Petrovic).

The question to me is Kukoc also included in that group or he is considered outside that group. I always viewed him as not the same but closely linked to them. So where does that leave Kukoc?

Kukoc was the first Euro I remember being excited about coming over to the NBA. Wondering how good he could be. He was the first guy we really heard about before he came over. Sabonis yeah in the 80s but he didn't come over until 1995 when he was old and battered. Kukoc was the premier star of European basketball and he was the first to come with expectations.

Petrovic was the first star player but that was after a few years of toiling on the end of Portland's bench. Vlade was considered a solid but underachieving soft NBA center (useful but unexceptional) until the mid-90s when he got some more credit for his abilities. Marciulionis was better than Vlade but Sarunas got hurt just as he was breaking out.

This was the state of the Euros when Kukoc arrived in 1993. One starter, two starter quality players. It was the early days. I mean, Petrovic made his first All-NBA team the year before Kukoc arrived. Petrovic was wrongly overlooked for the All-Star game so none of them had made an ASG (neither did Kukoc).

This was still very early on in terms of Euros being (1) accepted as legit NBA level players (2) Valued as key components of teams (3) thirdly sought after in drafts, trades and free agency. It was all a process. Kukoc to me played a big role in that process (even though he was not among the first 3).

[chicagoceltic]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer, too (diminishing the basketball HOF with these Euro trailblazer arguments is unbecoming…).

Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was definitely far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

You lost me here. Does anyone really argue that Laettner was the greatest college basketball player of all time?

[gouki88]

I'm having trouble seeing how Euro play preceding NBA has all that much to do with selection to the HOF .  If it's a borderline selection or a unique case such as Arvydas Sabonis, but other than that I don't see it. 

On the other hand, I'll defer to anyone who knows more than I do (which is everyone) about the impact any particular Euro/Int has had on basketball from an outside of the USA perspective.  That argument I can't counter. 

But as far as 4 or 5 years of Euro stats and honors -- I can't see that as too much different than a college phenom (back in the 4-year days) going on to have an above average NBA career.   Let's imagine if Larry Bird after his terrific college play at Indiana State (3 years, 30ppg, 13 rpg, 4.6 apg...) went on to have an above average NBA career for 10 years or so (remember, Bird was 23 his rookie year).   Would anyone think he should be in the HOF?  In fact, most people would have probably considered him a bust.

I don't think Euro play preceding the NBA has much impact now in the same way that NCAA play does not have much impact. It is only for the first few guys who made the transition.

Think of it from another angle. If nobody from the NCAA had ever made it to the NBA before then it would be pretty remarkable to see the first couple of guys do it. That is how I see some of those early 90s guys (Marciulionis, Vlade, Petrovic).

The question to me is Kukoc also included in that group or he is considered outside that group. I always viewed him as not the same but closely linked to them. So where does that leave Kukoc?

Kukoc was the first Euro I remember being excited about coming over to the NBA. Wondering how good he could be. He was the first guy we really heard about before he came over. Sabonis yeah in the 80s but he didn't come over until 1995 when he was old and battered. Kukoc was the premier star of European basketball and he was the first to come with expectations.

Petrovic was the first star player but that was after a few years of toiling on the end of Portland's bench. Vlade was considered a solid but underachieving soft NBA center (useful but unexceptional) until the mid-90s when he got some more credit for his abilities. Marciulionis was better than Vlade but Sarunas got hurt just as he was breaking out.

This was the state of the Euros when Kukoc arrived in 1993. One starter, two starter quality players. It was the early days. I mean, Petrovic made his first All-NBA team the year before Kukoc arrived. Petrovic was wrongly overlooked for the All-Star game so none of them had made an ASG (neither did Kukoc).

This was still very early on in terms of Euros being (1) accepted as legit NBA level players (2) Valued as key components of teams (3) thirdly sought after in drafts, trades and free agency. It was all a process. Kukoc to me played a big role in that process (even though he was not among the first 3).

It's further important to note that Sarunas, Petrovic and Vlade are all in the Hall.

[Who]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer, too (diminishing the basketball HOF with these Euro trailblazer arguments is unbecoming…).

Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was definitely far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

You lost me here. Does anyone really argue that Laettner was the greatest college basketball player of all time?

Not 100% sure here but if my memory serves me Laettner was #5 or somewhere around there when ESPN made a list of the 40 best college players of All-Time.

I have regularly seen him mentioned as a candidate for the top NCAA player of All-Time. A few have even picked him #1 - I figure due to recency bias over older players + today's younger players not spending as long in college so they did not build as lengthily a list of accolades as Laettner did.

[gouki88]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer, too (diminishing the basketball HOF with these Euro trailblazer arguments is unbecoming…).

Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was definitely far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

You lost me here. Does anyone really argue that Laettner was the greatest college basketball player of all time?

Not 100% sure here but if my memory serves me Laettner was #5 or somewhere around there when ESPN made a list of the 40 best college players of All-Time.

I have regularly seen him mentioned as a candidate for the top NCAA player of All-Time. A few have even picked him #1 - I figure due to recency bias over older players + today's younger players not spending as long in college so they did not build as lengthily a list of accolades as Laettner did.

I think it's probably between Kareem and Walton for me. Pistol Pete gets a look in for essentially being a 45/5/5 guy in college, and there are a few others, but those two stand out to me as both individually dominant and very successful in terms of winning.

[Who]

I looked it up - it was a top 20 college players by ESPN

20 - Bill Bradley
19 - Tim Duncan
18 - Tom Gola
17 - George Mikan
16 - Michael Jordan
15 - Magic Johnson
14 - Christian Laettner
13 - Ralph Sampson
12 - Elvin Hayes
11 - Jerry West
10 - Patrick Ewing
9 - Jerry Lucas
8 - David Thompson
7 - Larry Bird
6 - Pete Maravich
5 - Wilt Chamberlain
4 - Oscar Robertson
3 - Bill Russell
2 - Bill Walton
1 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


The video is somewhere on youtube. I downloaded it a year or so ago. Anyway, Laettner was much lower than I had remembered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErM-VQzz8mY&list=PLRuzZJJ0zv_l9FNcPKBKgmQ0tndeRsSyJ

[GreenlyGreeny]

I looked it up - it was a top 20 college players by ESPN

20 - Bill Bradley
19 - Tim Duncan
18 - Tom Gola
17 - George Mikan
16 - Michael Jordan
15 - Magic Johnson
14 - Christian Laettner
13 - Ralph Sampson
12 - Elvin Hayes
11 - Jerry West
10 - Patrick Ewing
9 - Jerry Lucas
8 - David Thompson
7 - Larry Bird
6 - Pete Maravich
5 - Wilt Chamberlain
4 - Oscar Robertson
3 - Bill Russell
2 - Bill Walton
1 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


The video is somewhere on youtube. I downloaded it a year or so ago. Anyway, Laettner was much lower than I had remembered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErM-VQzz8mY&list=PLRuzZJJ0zv_l9FNcPKBKgmQ0tndeRsSyJ

In other words, the top college basketball player since the NCAA universal adoption of the three point line in 1986 (to put into perspective the ones listed above him, and only one listed below him played college ball after 1986)…

[GreenlyGreeny]

I'm having trouble seeing how Euro play preceding NBA has all that much to do with selection to the HOF .  If it's a borderline selection or a unique case such as Arvydas Sabonis, but other than that I don't see it. 

On the other hand, I'll defer to anyone who knows more than I do (which is everyone) about the impact any particular Euro/Int has had on basketball from an outside of the USA perspective.  That argument I can't counter. 

But as far as 4 or 5 years of Euro stats and honors -- I can't see that as too much different than a college phenom (back in the 4-year days) going on to have an above average NBA career.   Let's imagine if Larry Bird after his terrific college play at Indiana State (3 years, 30ppg, 13 rpg, 4.6 apg...) went on to have an above average NBA career for 10 years or so (remember, Bird was 23 his rookie year).   Would anyone think he should be in the HOF?  In fact, most people would have probably considered him a bust.

I don't think Euro play preceding the NBA has much impact now in the same way that NCAA play does not have much impact. It is only for the first few guys who made the transition.

Think of it from another angle. If nobody from the NCAA had ever made it to the NBA before then it would be pretty remarkable to see the first couple of guys do it. That is how I see some of those early 90s guys (Marciulionis, Vlade, Petrovic).

The question to me is Kukoc also included in that group or he is considered outside that group. I always viewed him as not the same but closely linked to them. So where does that leave Kukoc?

Kukoc was the first Euro I remember being excited about coming over to the NBA. Wondering how good he could be. He was the first guy we really heard about before he came over. Sabonis yeah in the 80s but he didn't come over until 1995 when he was old and battered. Kukoc was the premier star of European basketball and he was the first to come with expectations.

Petrovic was the first star player but that was after a few years of toiling on the end of Portland's bench. Vlade was considered a solid but underachieving soft NBA center (useful but unexceptional) until the mid-90s when he got some more credit for his abilities. Marciulionis was better than Vlade but Sarunas got hurt just as he was breaking out.

This was the state of the Euros when Kukoc arrived in 1993. One starter, two starter quality players. It was the early days. I mean, Petrovic made his first All-NBA team the year before Kukoc arrived. Petrovic was wrongly overlooked for the All-Star game so none of them had made an ASG (neither did Kukoc).

This was still very early on in terms of Euros being (1) accepted as legit NBA level players (2) Valued as key components of teams (3) thirdly sought after in drafts, trades and free agency. It was all a process. Kukoc to me played a big role in that process (even though he was not among the first 3).

It's further important to note that Sarunas, Petrovic and Vlade are all in the Hall.

Yep. All I’m saying is three Euro trailblazers in the HOF is enough, and not a single one them makes the HOF if they’re born in the USA (their youngest years in Europe would have translated to Laettner-esque college ball history). Kukoc is taking this too far, and quite the stretch, particularly when thinking back to how much he was hyped by Krause and Co. Frankly, compared to the Euros before him and the Americans before him, Kukoc has no business being in the HOF. His induction clearly dilutes the significance of the institution. No way this happens if he’s not a white dude who had the good fortune of being MJ’s teammate on the second three-peat. Bet MJ, Pippen and Rodman shake their heads at the idea of Kukoc in the HOF.

[chicagoceltic]

I'm having trouble seeing how Euro play preceding NBA has all that much to do with selection to the HOF .  If it's a borderline selection or a unique case such as Arvydas Sabonis, but other than that I don't see it. 

On the other hand, I'll defer to anyone who knows more than I do (which is everyone) about the impact any particular Euro/Int has had on basketball from an outside of the USA perspective.  That argument I can't counter. 

But as far as 4 or 5 years of Euro stats and honors -- I can't see that as too much different than a college phenom (back in the 4-year days) going on to have an above average NBA career.   Let's imagine if Larry Bird after his terrific college play at Indiana State (3 years, 30ppg, 13 rpg, 4.6 apg...) went on to have an above average NBA career for 10 years or so (remember, Bird was 23 his rookie year).   Would anyone think he should be in the HOF?  In fact, most people would have probably considered him a bust.

I don't think Euro play preceding the NBA has much impact now in the same way that NCAA play does not have much impact. It is only for the first few guys who made the transition.

Think of it from another angle. If nobody from the NCAA had ever made it to the NBA before then it would be pretty remarkable to see the first couple of guys do it. That is how I see some of those early 90s guys (Marciulionis, Vlade, Petrovic).

The question to me is Kukoc also included in that group or he is considered outside that group. I always viewed him as not the same but closely linked to them. So where does that leave Kukoc?

Kukoc was the first Euro I remember being excited about coming over to the NBA. Wondering how good he could be. He was the first guy we really heard about before he came over. Sabonis yeah in the 80s but he didn't come over until 1995 when he was old and battered. Kukoc was the premier star of European basketball and he was the first to come with expectations.

Petrovic was the first star player but that was after a few years of toiling on the end of Portland's bench. Vlade was considered a solid but underachieving soft NBA center (useful but unexceptional) until the mid-90s when he got some more credit for his abilities. Marciulionis was better than Vlade but Sarunas got hurt just as he was breaking out.

This was the state of the Euros when Kukoc arrived in 1993. One starter, two starter quality players. It was the early days. I mean, Petrovic made his first All-NBA team the year before Kukoc arrived. Petrovic was wrongly overlooked for the All-Star game so none of them had made an ASG (neither did Kukoc).

This was still very early on in terms of Euros being (1) accepted as legit NBA level players (2) Valued as key components of teams (3) thirdly sought after in drafts, trades and free agency. It was all a process. Kukoc to me played a big role in that process (even though he was not among the first 3).

It's further important to note that Sarunas, Petrovic and Vlade are all in the Hall.

Yep. All I’m saying is three Euro trailblazers in the HOF is enough, and not a single one them makes the HOF if they’re born in the USA (their youngest years in Europe would have translated to Laettner-esque college ball history). Kukoc is taking this too far, and quite the stretch, particularly when thinking back to how much he was hyped by Krause and Co. Frankly, compared to the Euros before him and the Americans before him, Kukoc has no business being in the HOF. His induction clearly dilutes the significance of the institution. No way this happens if he’s not a white dude who had the good fortune of being MJ’s teammate on the second three-peat. Bet MJ, Pippen and Rodman shake their heads at the idea of Kukoc in the HOF.

MJ and Reinsdorf are presenting Kucoc at the Hall of Fame and Pippen tweeted out that it was "about time..." so you may not want to bet too much.

https://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/toni-kukoc-michael-jordan-jerry-reinsdorf-hall-of-fame-co-presenters/582505#:~:text=Michael%20Jordan%20will%20be%20making%20an%20appearance%20on,Bulls%20owner%20Jerry%20Reinsdorf%20to%20be%20his%20co-presenters.


https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-toni-kukoc-selected-hall-fame-class-2021