Seconds From ‘The G.O.A.T’ Discussion

[Somebody]

 Check my screen name. I loved KG. However remember Duncan was the go to guy his rookie year over David Robinson.

 Not only that but it wasn't even close. Duncan was so much better as a scorer as a rookie.  Remember all the talk that KG couldn't take over games in the fourth quarter.  That was true.

 Kevin needed a Pierce,  Kobe, or Tmac sidekick much more than Duncan did. Also Duncans strength advantage was huge over KG for a long time.

 Edge to TD without a doubt.

KG came into the league out of high school as an 18 year old kid. It’s irrelevant who was better as a rookie. Again, KG is a more versatile scorer, a better  rebounder, defender, Passer and leader. KG did take over games, Did you watch him in the playoffs when he was on the the T-Woves?  He was dominant on both ends. He didn’t have to be the go to scorer in Boston with Ray and Pierce on the team. Duncan had hall of fame sidekicks for his entire career. Kawhi and David Robinson are better players than Pierce or Ray.

What do you mean by “more versatile scorer”?

I’d also put their defense and rebounding on about the same level.  And, leadership is in the eye of the beholder.

And, to me, the “look at the Twolves playoff games” argument doesn’t sway me.  KG lost six straight series in the first round, had one good run, then missed the playoffs three straight years.

Winning matters, and there’s clear separation there.

KG had a better offensive arsenal. More moves. Rebounding was close, but KG was on another level defensively. Garnett was going up against prime shaq and Kobe with virtually no help. Who was his sidekick, Wally Sczerbiak? Duncan had all time greats in Robinson and Kawhi one of the best coaches ever. Winning does matter, but so does the environment each player was operating in. Duncan was in a much better situation.

I agree that KG had the better arsenal, but he was more hesitant to score more often than Duncan was.

Duncan's constant rim pressure made him capable of ramping up against weaker defences in a way that Garnett was never able to.

Good comparison of Duncan/Garnett peak vs peak (you don't have to agree with his line of thinking, but the main takeaway is that both players are really close to each other):
https://youtu.be/FzzlvnncLOQ?t=376

[Kernewek]

I forget who said it first, but the line goes something like “Tim Duncan is the best power forward of all time because Shaq played Center.”  Obviously Tim started out as a PF but he spent so much time at the 5 with the Spurs after David Robinson left that it’s a pretty murky point, especially when you compare him to someone like KG who more or less always played with a “true” Center.

Two of the best to ever play the game, though. Resume comparisons have so many variables that it’s difficult to say who really has the edge.

[Somebody]

I forget who said it first, but the line goes something like “Tim Duncan is the best power forward of all time because Shaq played Center.”  Obviously Tim started out as a PF but he spent so much time at the 5 with the Spurs after David Robinson left that it’s a pretty murky point, especially when you compare him to someone like KG who more or less always played with a “true” Center.

Two of the best to ever play the game, though. Resume comparisons have so many variables that it’s difficult to say who really has the edge.

Pretty much, he would've been a centre if he was drafted by any team not named the Spurs in the '97 lottery. He was a bruising, powerful big who just grinded his way to the hoop (he even posted up behemoths like Shaq and backed them down during his prime) for easy scores, offensive rebounds and free throws. And on defence he used that sturdy base to blanket the rim with his incredibly long wingspan while defending the biggest of big men (he even guarded Shaq quite a bit in the early 2000s once Robinson's MPG declined with age).

But yeah both of them are up there in GOAT lists.

[GreenlyGreeny]

Duncan is the best prototypical power forward of all-time. Everything was textbook. As much as I love KG, he even falls behind Karl Malone on an all-time dream team (although still makes that team as the third PF).

[Moranis]

Duncan is clearly the best PF of all time.  It isn't close.  I don't even have KG 2nd, I have him 4th behind Malone and Nowitzki on an all time list (I think you could even make a case that Barkley is better than him).  Winning absolutely matters and KG consistently failed to win because his skill set was much more suited as a #2 than a #1.  KG was arguably the biggest loser of all time (from great players) until he came to Boston and that was entire prime.  He couldn't even make the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.  That is just a huge knock. 

[Goldstar88]

Duncan is clearly the best PF of all time.  It isn't close.  I don't even have KG 2nd, I have him 4th behind Malone and Nowitzki on an all time list (I think you could even make a case that Barkley is better than him).  Winning absolutely matters and KG consistently failed to win because his skill set was much more suited as a #2 than a #1.  KG was arguably the biggest loser of all time (from great players) until he came to Boston and that was entire prime.  He couldn't even make the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.  That is just a huge knock.

Ridiculous. Let’s just ignore the scrubs that KG played with for 90% of his career. Garnett is clearly more talented then those guys and an all around better player. Again, put Duncan on Minnesota and KG on those spurs teams with Pop. Same results. 

[Moranis]

Duncan is clearly the best PF of all time.  It isn't close.  I don't even have KG 2nd, I have him 4th behind Malone and Nowitzki on an all time list (I think you could even make a case that Barkley is better than him).  Winning absolutely matters and KG consistently failed to win because his skill set was much more suited as a #2 than a #1.  KG was arguably the biggest loser of all time (from great players) until he came to Boston and that was entire prime.  He couldn't even make the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.  That is just a huge knock.

Ridiculous. Let’s just ignore the scrubs that KG played with for 90% of his career. Garnett is clearly more talented then those guys and an all around better player. Again, put Duncan on Minnesota and KG on those spurs teams with Pop. Same results.

I don't think that is the case at all.  Duncan was just better than Garnett and it isn't close.  The 03 Spurs team that won the title is actually quite comparable talent wise to several of Garnett's teams that either lost in the 1st round or didn't even make the playoffs (DRob was 37 and a shell, Manu was a rookie, and Parker was in his 2nd year). 

Garnett never played with a HOFer in his prime (until Boston), but he did have plenty of all star level players and high level draft picks throughout his time in Minnesota.  People just have this idea because KG never won, it must not have been KG, but his supporting cast.  I mean in 2005 he had Spreewell, Wally, and Sam I Am, and they won only 44 games missing the playoffs.  Duncan is winning 55 games with that supporting cast and getting a 1st round bye, because Duncan, quite simply, is better than KG.

[moiso]

Duncan is clearly the best PF of all time.  It isn't close.  I don't even have KG 2nd, I have him 4th behind Malone and Nowitzki on an all time list (I think you could even make a case that Barkley is better than him).  Winning absolutely matters and KG consistently failed to win because his skill set was much more suited as a #2 than a #1.  KG was arguably the biggest loser of all time (from great players) until he came to Boston and that was entire prime.  He couldn't even make the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.  That is just a huge knock.

Ridiculous. Let’s just ignore the scrubs that KG played with for 90% of his career. Garnett is clearly more talented then those guys and an all around better player. Again, put Duncan on Minnesota and KG on those spurs teams with Pop. Same results.

The GOAT should at least MAKE the playoffs every year of his prime.  Even a guy like Westbrook, who I'm not crazy about at all, makes the playoffs every year regardless of teammates.

[gouki88]

Duncan is clearly the best PF of all time.  It isn't close.  I don't even have KG 2nd, I have him 4th behind Malone and Nowitzki on an all time list (I think you could even make a case that Barkley is better than him).  Winning absolutely matters and KG consistently failed to win because his skill set was much more suited as a #2 than a #1.  KG was arguably the biggest loser of all time (from great players) until he came to Boston and that was entire prime.  He couldn't even make the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.  That is just a huge knock.

Ridiculous. Let’s just ignore the scrubs that KG played with for 90% of his career. Garnett is clearly more talented then those guys and an all around better player. Again, put Duncan on Minnesota and KG on those spurs teams with Pop. Same results.

Don't bother, lol.

Duncan is clearly the best PF of all time.  It isn't close.  I don't even have KG 2nd, I have him 4th behind Malone and Nowitzki on an all time list (I think you could even make a case that Barkley is better than him).  Winning absolutely matters and KG consistently failed to win because his skill set was much more suited as a #2 than a #1.  KG was arguably the biggest loser of all time (from great players) until he came to Boston and that was entire prime.  He couldn't even make the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.  That is just a huge knock.

Ridiculous. Let’s just ignore the scrubs that KG played with for 90% of his career. Garnett is clearly more talented then those guys and an all around better player. Again, put Duncan on Minnesota and KG on those spurs teams with Pop. Same results.

The GOAT should at least MAKE the playoffs every year of his prime.  Even a guy like Westbrook, who I'm not crazy about at all, makes the playoffs every year regardless of teammates.

This is a bit silly to me, especially when talking historically. Does Michael Jordan get more credit for his 30-52 Bulls making the playoffs in 86 and getting swept in the first round than KG does for his 50-32 Wolves making the playoffs and getting swept in the first round? There are far to many extraneous variables, especially when talking about a franchise as volatile as Minny (cough, Joe Smith, cough).

[gouki88]

Duncan is clearly the best PF of all time.  It isn't close.  I don't even have KG 2nd, I have him 4th behind Malone and Nowitzki on an all time list (I think you could even make a case that Barkley is better than him).  Winning absolutely matters and KG consistently failed to win because his skill set was much more suited as a #2 than a #1.  KG was arguably the biggest loser of all time (from great players) until he came to Boston and that was entire prime.  He couldn't even make the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.  That is just a huge knock.

Ridiculous. Let’s just ignore the scrubs that KG played with for 90% of his career. Garnett is clearly more talented then those guys and an all around better player. Again, put Duncan on Minnesota and KG on those spurs teams with Pop. Same results.

I don't think that is the case at all.  Duncan was just better than Garnett and it isn't close.  The 03 Spurs team that won the title is actually quite comparable talent wise to several of Garnett's teams that either lost in the 1st round or didn't even make the playoffs (DRob was 37 and a shell, Manu was a rookie, and Parker was in his 2nd year). 

Garnett never played with a HOFer in his prime (until Boston), but he did have plenty of all star level players and high level draft picks throughout his time in Minnesota.  People just have this idea because KG never won, it must not have been KG, but his supporting cast.  I mean in 2005 he had Spreewell, Wally, and Sam I Am, and they won only 44 games missing the playoffs.  Duncan is winning 55 games with that supporting cast and getting a 1st round bye, because Duncan, quite simply, is better than KG.

You just can't help yourself but be dishonest about KG can you? Sprewell, who was 34 and in the final year of his career, Cassell, who was injured (only managed 59 games and 38 starts, seeing a 9MPG drop) and Szczerbiak, who was still working his way back from devastating injuries, are nowhere near "plenty of All-Star level players", and they are certainly not particularly close to David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker early on, or Manu, TP, Kawhi and LaMarcus Aldridge later on.

Not sure why I've gotten sucked into a KG discussion with you yet again, but you are at this stage just lying to make your point.

[Moranis]

Duncan is clearly the best PF of all time.  It isn't close.  I don't even have KG 2nd, I have him 4th behind Malone and Nowitzki on an all time list (I think you could even make a case that Barkley is better than him).  Winning absolutely matters and KG consistently failed to win because his skill set was much more suited as a #2 than a #1.  KG was arguably the biggest loser of all time (from great players) until he came to Boston and that was entire prime.  He couldn't even make the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.  That is just a huge knock.

Ridiculous. Let’s just ignore the scrubs that KG played with for 90% of his career. Garnett is clearly more talented then those guys and an all around better player. Again, put Duncan on Minnesota and KG on those spurs teams with Pop. Same results.

I don't think that is the case at all.  Duncan was just better than Garnett and it isn't close.  The 03 Spurs team that won the title is actually quite comparable talent wise to several of Garnett's teams that either lost in the 1st round or didn't even make the playoffs (DRob was 37 and a shell, Manu was a rookie, and Parker was in his 2nd year). 

Garnett never played with a HOFer in his prime (until Boston), but he did have plenty of all star level players and high level draft picks throughout his time in Minnesota.  People just have this idea because KG never won, it must not have been KG, but his supporting cast.  I mean in 2005 he had Spreewell, Wally, and Sam I Am, and they won only 44 games missing the playoffs.  Duncan is winning 55 games with that supporting cast and getting a 1st round bye, because Duncan, quite simply, is better than KG.

You just can't help yourself but be dishonest about KG can you? Sprewell, who was 34 and in the final year of his career, Cassell, who was injured (only managed 59 games and 38 starts, seeing a 9MPG drop) and Szczerbiak, who was still working his way back from devastating injuries, are nowhere near "plenty of All-Star level players", and they are certainly not particularly close to David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker early on, or Manu, TP, Kawhi and LaMarcus Aldridge later on.

Not sure why I've gotten sucked into a KG discussion with you yet again, but you are at this stage just lying to make your point.

they won 58 games with Wally playing only 28 games the year before.  If Sam Cassell is that important that significantly hurts the KG argument don't you think?

[moiso]

Duncan is clearly the best PF of all time.  It isn't close.  I don't even have KG 2nd, I have him 4th behind Malone and Nowitzki on an all time list (I think you could even make a case that Barkley is better than him).  Winning absolutely matters and KG consistently failed to win because his skill set was much more suited as a #2 than a #1.  KG was arguably the biggest loser of all time (from great players) until he came to Boston and that was entire prime.  He couldn't even make the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.  That is just a huge knock.

Ridiculous. Let’s just ignore the scrubs that KG played with for 90% of his career. Garnett is clearly more talented then those guys and an all around better player. Again, put Duncan on Minnesota and KG on those spurs teams with Pop. Same results.

Don't bother, lol.

Duncan is clearly the best PF of all time.  It isn't close.  I don't even have KG 2nd, I have him 4th behind Malone and Nowitzki on an all time list (I think you could even make a case that Barkley is better than him).  Winning absolutely matters and KG consistently failed to win because his skill set was much more suited as a #2 than a #1.  KG was arguably the biggest loser of all time (from great players) until he came to Boston and that was entire prime.  He couldn't even make the playoffs for 3 years in his prime.  That is just a huge knock.

Ridiculous. Let’s just ignore the scrubs that KG played with for 90% of his career. Garnett is clearly more talented then those guys and an all around better player. Again, put Duncan on Minnesota and KG on those spurs teams with Pop. Same results.

The GOAT should at least MAKE the playoffs every year of his prime.  Even a guy like Westbrook, who I'm not crazy about at all, makes the playoffs every year regardless of teammates.

This is a bit silly to me, especially when talking historically. Does Michael Jordan get more credit for his 30-52 Bulls making the playoffs in 86 and getting swept in the first round than KG does for his 50-32 Wolves making the playoffs and getting swept in the first round? There are far to many extraneous variables, especially when talking about a franchise as volatile as Minny (cough, Joe Smith, cough).

Jordan wasn't in his prime in 1986, as great as he was.