The Ignored And Forgotten Lives That Still Matter: Urban Crime

[Roy H.]

Two teenage boys were shot to death after asking the suspect how tall he was when they were buying candy from a store.

The incident occurred at approximately 5 p.m. on Saturday June 20 after three teenage boys went to a store in South Chicago to buy some candy and ended up having a brief encounter with 19-year-old Laroy Battle inside the establishment.

“The victims were walking into the store, they saw Battle, he was standing in line while at the store and the victims commented that Battle, he was quite tall, and they asked him how tall he was and hoped to be that tall someday,” said Deputy Chief of Detectives Brendan Deenihan “Unfortunately, we will never even see the full growth of these poor children.”


The three teenage boys then left the store and proceeded to walk home together when police say that Battle approached them and began shooting.
Francis, 17, was shot in the back, chest and left hand. Charles Riley, 16, was shot in the back and left leg. The third teen, who was not identified, managed to escape the gunfire. Both of the boys who were shot were taken to University of Chicago Hospital and later died from the injuries they suffered during the shooting.

“The security cameras from the area were able to show the offender discarding a gun in the garbage can and then Battle was eventually found hiding out in a motel … He was arrested without incident.” Deenihan announced in the press conference.

Police also said that they recovered nine shell casings from the scene of the crime.

All life is precious.  However, when I look at who is killing our black citizens in this country, the primary issue isn’t the police.  How many young innocents are killed in our cities, whether it be due to targeted killings or stray bullets?

Police brutality and illegal killings are an issue in this country.  Mass shootings are, as well.  But, the number of people killed by both combined is absolutely dwarved by urban and gang-related violence.

Is it a problem that’s fixable?

[GreenFaith1819]

Two teenage boys were shot to death after asking the suspect how tall he was when they were buying candy from a store.

The incident occurred at approximately 5 p.m. on Saturday June 20 after three teenage boys went to a store in South Chicago to buy some candy and ended up having a brief encounter with 19-year-old Laroy Battle inside the establishment.

“The victims were walking into the store, they saw Battle, he was standing in line while at the store and the victims commented that Battle, he was quite tall, and they asked him how tall he was and hoped to be that tall someday,” said Deputy Chief of Detectives Brendan Deenihan “Unfortunately, we will never even see the full growth of these poor children.”


The three teenage boys then left the store and proceeded to walk home together when police say that Battle approached them and began shooting.
Francis, 17, was shot in the back, chest and left hand. Charles Riley, 16, was shot in the back and left leg. The third teen, who was not identified, managed to escape the gunfire. Both of the boys who were shot were taken to University of Chicago Hospital and later died from the injuries they suffered during the shooting.

“The security cameras from the area were able to show the offender discarding a gun in the garbage can and then Battle was eventually found hiding out in a motel … He was arrested without incident.” Deenihan announced in the press conference.

Police also said that they recovered nine shell casings from the scene of the crime.

All life is precious.  However, when I look at who is killing our black citizens in this country, the primary issue isn’t the police.  How many young innocents are killed in our cities, whether it be due to targeted killings or stray bullets?

Police brutality and illegal killings are an issue in this country.  Mass shootings are, as well.  But, the number of people killed by both combined is absolutely dwarved by urban and gang-related violence.

Is it a problem that’s fixable?

Some of this stuff is Generational....I'd guess that the killer probably had little to no remorse for life - whether Black or White.

Maybe he came from a single-parent home? Sometimes this can be overcome.

What about the gun? Was it registered to him? Was he a legal gun holder?

I know at one time Police DID have Gun-Buyback events.

Chicago has had issues like this for a long time....and it's not just there, as well.

[NKY fan]

Two teenage boys were shot to death after asking the suspect how tall he was when they were buying candy from a store.

The incident occurred at approximately 5 p.m. on Saturday June 20 after three teenage boys went to a store in South Chicago to buy some candy and ended up having a brief encounter with 19-year-old Laroy Battle inside the establishment.

“The victims were walking into the store, they saw Battle, he was standing in line while at the store and the victims commented that Battle, he was quite tall, and they asked him how tall he was and hoped to be that tall someday,” said Deputy Chief of Detectives Brendan Deenihan “Unfortunately, we will never even see the full growth of these poor children.”


The three teenage boys then left the store and proceeded to walk home together when police say that Battle approached them and began shooting.
Francis, 17, was shot in the back, chest and left hand. Charles Riley, 16, was shot in the back and left leg. The third teen, who was not identified, managed to escape the gunfire. Both of the boys who were shot were taken to University of Chicago Hospital and later died from the injuries they suffered during the shooting.

“The security cameras from the area were able to show the offender discarding a gun in the garbage can and then Battle was eventually found hiding out in a motel … He was arrested without incident.” Deenihan announced in the press conference.

Police also said that they recovered nine shell casings from the scene of the crime.

All life is precious.  However, when I look at who is killing our black citizens in this country, the primary issue isn’t the police.  How many young innocents are killed in our cities, whether it be due to targeted killings or stray bullets?

Police brutality and illegal killings are an issue in this country.  Mass shootings are, as well.  But, the number of people killed by both combined is absolutely dwarved by urban and gang-related violence.

Is it a problem that’s fixable?

Some of this stuff is Generational....I'd guess that the killer probably had little to no remorse for life - whether Black or White.

Maybe he came from a single-parent home? Sometimes this can be overcome.
What about the gun? Was it registered to him? Was he a legal gun holder?

I know at one time Police DID have Gun-Buyback events.

Chicago has had issues like this for a long time....and it's not just there, as well.

Green Faith, how do you think the one parent raising of a family issue can be dealt with ? I wonder what your thoughts are on it?

[GreenFaith1819]

Two teenage boys were shot to death after asking the suspect how tall he was when they were buying candy from a store.

The incident occurred at approximately 5 p.m. on Saturday June 20 after three teenage boys went to a store in South Chicago to buy some candy and ended up having a brief encounter with 19-year-old Laroy Battle inside the establishment.

“The victims were walking into the store, they saw Battle, he was standing in line while at the store and the victims commented that Battle, he was quite tall, and they asked him how tall he was and hoped to be that tall someday,” said Deputy Chief of Detectives Brendan Deenihan “Unfortunately, we will never even see the full growth of these poor children.”


The three teenage boys then left the store and proceeded to walk home together when police say that Battle approached them and began shooting.
Francis, 17, was shot in the back, chest and left hand. Charles Riley, 16, was shot in the back and left leg. The third teen, who was not identified, managed to escape the gunfire. Both of the boys who were shot were taken to University of Chicago Hospital and later died from the injuries they suffered during the shooting.

“The security cameras from the area were able to show the offender discarding a gun in the garbage can and then Battle was eventually found hiding out in a motel … He was arrested without incident.” Deenihan announced in the press conference.

Police also said that they recovered nine shell casings from the scene of the crime.

All life is precious.  However, when I look at who is killing our black citizens in this country, the primary issue isn’t the police.  How many young innocents are killed in our cities, whether it be due to targeted killings or stray bullets?

Police brutality and illegal killings are an issue in this country.  Mass shootings are, as well.  But, the number of people killed by both combined is absolutely dwarved by urban and gang-related violence.

Is it a problem that’s fixable?

Some of this stuff is Generational....I'd guess that the killer probably had little to no remorse for life - whether Black or White.

Maybe he came from a single-parent home? Sometimes this can be overcome.
What about the gun? Was it registered to him? Was he a legal gun holder?

I know at one time Police DID have Gun-Buyback events.

Chicago has had issues like this for a long time....and it's not just there, as well.

Green Faith, how do you think the one parent raising of a family issue can be dealt with ? I wonder what your thoughts are on it?

The thing is that "I" came from a single-parent home...I made it this far because of a God-fearing mom, my church family AND my time in the service grew me as an individual...taught me to see a bigger picture than myself.

The young man above? In Roy's post? I have no idea....we comment on the article but I have no idea as to his entire situation...

He could have very well came from two parent household...sometimes even the IDEA situations can go bad.....

I can point to the gun...but that - in itself - may NOT be the entire picture.

when "I" grew up folks fought all the time...with their fists. Then went to school the next day laughing about it.

Now? Say the wrong thing (or the RIGHT thing) to someone and it can go just like Roy's article.

[jambr380]

It's the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about, for sure. Liberals want to blame violent crime on outside factors and conservatives just sound racist when they bring it up (some more than others). It's okay to be a harsh critic of how these needless deaths occur - just so long as your acknowledgement comes with true concern on how to improve the situation...meaning you should actually care, not just be disgusted.

I've chosen to stay out of the debate on black on black crime for the time being since there is another pressing problem being focused on in our society right now. That doesn't mean that I don't think it's important issue, it's just that we likely have to address the police brutality/inconsistent sentencing problem first.

[gouki88]

I think there is a real crisis of single parenthood in black communities. Obviously not all single parents are in any way bad - GF’s mum for example. However, there seems to be a consistency in people who commit crimes like this hailing from broken homes.

This isn’t just a black issue, but as far as I’m aware the highest %’s of single parenthood are in African-American communities. I do think this is in part due to institutional problems that disproportionately target black men (being put away for minor & nonviolent crimes, being over-policed, etc.), but I’m not sure I can attribute it all to that. It certainly doesn’t help that the War on Drugs (as well as the CIA trafficking crack into America) ... well... happened.
You can even see when you look at mass shooters, the majority of them come from broken homes.

I’m really not sure how to target things like this.

[NKY fan]

It's the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about, for sure. Liberals want to blame violent crime on outside factors and conservatives just sound racist when they bring it up (some more than others). It's okay to be a harsh critic of how these needless deaths occur - just so long as your acknowledgement comes with true concern on how to improve the situation...meaning you should actually care, not just be disgusted.

I've chosen to stay out of the debate on black on black crime for the time being since there is another pressing problem being focused on in our society right now. That doesn't mean that I don't think it's important issue, it's just that we likely have to address the police brutality/inconsistent sentencing problem first.

I would think a lot of this type of crime is due to single parent households as GreenFaith pointed above.

I grew up with an alcoholic father who was just present in my life growing up ... but no more than that . But at least I had him present. A lot of black kids (I’m too lazy to look up stats but it is probably a very material %) have no idea what it means to have a father figure and how should a father behave.
 
Note I was confused about what a father figure should be growing up. I found it really strange that my friends family always had lunch and dinner all together...
15 Years after graduating high school it struck me that most of my close friends had similar “alcoholic “ or non present fathers. I never really thought about why did we bond so much and still keep in touch.
Now project the same to a sample of kids growing up without a father on the same block.. One of your friends start doing petty crimes ( cause there is no father to discipline him) all of a sudden you get yourself doing the same thing as there is no one to discipline you... next thing you know a lot of your buddy’s do the same.
 It is just my theory .. could be completely wrong

[Neurotic Guy]

It's the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about, for sure. Liberals want to blame violent crime on outside factors and conservatives just sound racist when they bring it up (some more than others). It's okay to be a harsh critic of how these needless deaths occur - just so long as your acknowledgement comes with true concern on how to improve the situation...meaning you should actually care, not just be disgusted.

I've chosen to stay out of the debate on black on black crime for the time being since there is another pressing problem being focused on in our society right now. That doesn't mean that I don't think it's important issue, it's just that we likely have to address the police brutality/inconsistent sentencing problem first.

I would think a lot of this type of crime is due to single parent households as GreenFaith pointed above.

I grew up with an alcoholic father who was just present in my life growing up ... but no more than that . But at least I had him present. A lot of black kids (I’m too lazy to look up stats but it is probably a very material %) have no idea what it means to have a father figure and how should a father behave.
 
Note I was confused about what a father figure should be growing up. I found it really strange that my friends family always had lunch and dinner all together...
15 Years after graduating high school it struck me that most of my close friends had similar “alcoholic “ or non present fathers. I never really thought about why did we bond so much and still keep in touch.
Now project the same to a sample of kids growing up without a father on the same block.. One of your friends start doing petty crimes ( cause there is no father to discipline him) all of a sudden you get yourself doing the same thing as there is no one to discipline you... next thing you know a lot of your buddy’s do the same.
 It is just my theory .. could be completely wrong

I wonder if, in many cases it's the confluence of the absence of a father figure plus the presence of negative role models.  Modeling, like it or not, is our primary teaching tool.  Depending on the child's natural tendencies/temperament/intelligence... and the varied influences available, the child can go down a variety of roads, but take the father out of the house and fill the child's neighborhood and extended family with negative models and you are going to increase the likelihood of going down a troubled road.  Add poor readiness for school, lack of school success, connections with similarly troubled peers and you have a number of factors that would lead to high-risk behavior and anti-social outcomes.  Some manage to overcome against the odds, but many in these circumstances end up impulsive, empathy-lacking, power-seeking, thrill-seeking, young men and young women.   I'd need some back-up on this because I don't know this for sure, but it seems to me that a lot of Black men are acknowledging this cultural reality and are trying to create a generation that changes this trajectory.  But it is complicated and difficult. You don't choose what you are exposed to as a child -- you survive, and you become.  And unfortunately many young men who have had disadvantages are too young developmentally to make responsible adult decisions but not too young to engage in crime. 

[keevsnick]

It's the elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about, for sure. Liberals want to blame violent crime on outside factors and conservatives just sound racist when they bring it up (some more than others). It's okay to be a harsh critic of how these needless deaths occur - just so long as your acknowledgement comes with true concern on how to improve the situation...meaning you should actually care, not just be disgusted.

I've chosen to stay out of the debate on black on black crime for the time being since there is another pressing problem being focused on in our society right now. That doesn't mean that I don't think it's important issue, it's just that we likely have to address the police brutality/inconsistent sentencing problem first.

I would think a lot of this type of crime is due to single parent households as GreenFaith pointed above.

I grew up with an alcoholic father who was just present in my life growing up ... but no more than that . But at least I had him present. A lot of black kids (I’m too lazy to look up stats but it is probably a very material %) have no idea what it means to have a father figure and how should a father behave.
 
Note I was confused about what a father figure should be growing up. I found it really strange that my friends family always had lunch and dinner all together...
15 Years after graduating high school it struck me that most of my close friends had similar “alcoholic “ or non present fathers. I never really thought about why did we bond so much and still keep in touch.
Now project the same to a sample of kids growing up without a father on the same block.. One of your friends start doing petty crimes ( cause there is no father to discipline him) all of a sudden you get yourself doing the same thing as there is no one to discipline you... next thing you know a lot of your buddy’s do the same.
 It is just my theory .. could be completely wrong

I dont know if its so much the emotional aspect of growing up without  father as it is the financial impact of growing up in a singe parent family. Something like 30-40% (the stats I found varied) of single mother family's live below the poverty line and poverty is one of the biggest risk factors for criminal behavior. That of course leads to imprisonments and more  single income families. Its a viscous cycle.

Then of course you have to talk bout systemic racism within our criminal, financial and educational systems which contribute to the cycle of poverty and imprisonment in our inner cities.

[Fan from VT]

Boy, it sounds like if someone were generally concerned about this, it would be a really good reason to:

- Increase gun control
- Increase birth control access and education
- Decriminalize things that disproportionately lead to black/poor incarceration yet done at high rates across most of the population (eg Marijuana, cash bail)
- De privatize all prisons; remove incentive to keep them full and understaffed
- Decarceralize by about 80-90% (bring us in line with Europe); put the tremendous amount of money currently going there toward outpatient substance abuse treatment, parenting education, work programs, etc.
- Universal healthcare, to remove one of the major causes of poverty/personal bankruptcy and allow access to mental health medication and treatment


But that would be a small part of the logical end of a train of thought that started with genuine interest.

Instead, I'm going to lift a few quotes from an article about black on black crime:

When an opponent of Black Lives Matters talks about “blacks killing blacks” it’s almost always to deflect attention away from police brutality. As if one issue makes the other more acceptable.

When someone commits an act of terrorism against the United States, which rightfully leads to anger and sadness, no one asks, “Well what about how many Americans kill other Americans each year?” Because that would crazy, now wouldn’t it?

The majority of black people murdered are killed by other black people. That’s true, but also misleading. The overwhelming majority of white murder victims each year are killed by white assailants

As shocking as it may be for some to hear, people generally commit crimes against people they know or live near. If you want to have a real discussion about crime, let’s talk about the factors that contribute to it happening in the first place.

What is someone supposed to do when you can be murdered legally? When police can harass you and then choke you out because you’re selling loose cigarettes or when a cop can kneel on your neck as you cry out “I can’t breathe" while his colleagues stand by and watch.

That’s why police brutality is its own unique horror. And African Americans are two and half times more likely than whites to be killed by law enforcement.

But, yes, non-police violence is a huge issue in the US. But I have higher standards and expectations for when the violence is perpetrated by someone sanctioned, trained, and employed by the state.

[GreenFaith1819]

Boy, it sounds like if someone were generally concerned about this, it would be a really good reason to:

- Increase gun control
- Increase birth control access and education
- Decriminalize things that disproportionately lead to black/poor incarceration yet done at high rates across most of the population (eg Marijuana, cash bail)
- De privatize all prisons; remove incentive to keep them full and understaffed
- Decarceralize by about 80-90% (bring us in line with Europe); put the tremendous amount of money currently going there toward outpatient substance abuse treatment, parenting education, work programs, etc.
- Universal healthcare, to remove one of the major causes of poverty/personal bankruptcy and allow access to mental health medication and treatment


But that would be a small part of the logical end of a train of thought that started with genuine interest.

Instead, I'm going to lift a few quotes from an article about black on black crime:

When an opponent of Black Lives Matters talks about “blacks killing blacks” it’s almost always to deflect attention away from police brutality. As if one issue makes the other more acceptable.

When someone commits an act of terrorism against the United States, which rightfully leads to anger and sadness, no one asks, “Well what about how many Americans kill other Americans each year?” Because that would crazy, now wouldn’t it?

The majority of black people murdered are killed by other black people. That’s true, but also misleading. The overwhelming majority of white murder victims each year are killed by white assailants

As shocking as it may be for some to hear, people generally commit crimes against people they know or live near. If you want to have a real discussion about crime, let’s talk about the factors that contribute to it happening in the first place.

What is someone supposed to do when you can be murdered legally? When police can harass you and then choke you out because you’re selling loose cigarettes or when a cop can kneel on your neck as you cry out “I can’t breathe" while his colleagues stand by and watch.

That’s why police brutality is its own unique horror. And African Americans are two and half times more likely than whites to be killed by law enforcement.

But, yes, non-police violence is a huge issue in the US. But I have higher standards and expectations for when the violence is perpetrated by someone sanctioned, trained, and employed by the state.

Solid Post.

[nickagneta]

Boy, it sounds like if someone were generally concerned about this, it would be a really good reason to:

- Increase gun control
- Increase birth control access and education
- Decriminalize things that disproportionately lead to black/poor incarceration yet done at high rates across most of the population (eg Marijuana, cash bail)
- De privatize all prisons; remove incentive to keep them full and understaffed
- Decarceralize by about 80-90% (bring us in line with Europe); put the tremendous amount of money currently going there toward outpatient substance abuse treatment, parenting education, work programs, etc.
- Universal healthcare, to remove one of the major causes of poverty/personal bankruptcy and allow access to mental health medication and treatment


But that would be a small part of the logical end of a train of thought that started with genuine interest.

Instead, I'm going to lift a few quotes from an article about black on black crime:

When an opponent of Black Lives Matters talks about “blacks killing blacks” it’s almost always to deflect attention away from police brutality. As if one issue makes the other more acceptable.

When someone commits an act of terrorism against the United States, which rightfully leads to anger and sadness, no one asks, “Well what about how many Americans kill other Americans each year?” Because that would crazy, now wouldn’t it?

The majority of black people murdered are killed by other black people. That’s true, but also misleading. The overwhelming majority of white murder victims each year are killed by white assailants

As shocking as it may be for some to hear, people generally commit crimes against people they know or live near. If you want to have a real discussion about crime, let’s talk about the factors that contribute to it happening in the first place.

What is someone supposed to do when you can be murdered legally? When police can harass you and then choke you out because you’re selling loose cigarettes or when a cop can kneel on your neck as you cry out “I can’t breathe" while his colleagues stand by and watch.

That’s why police brutality is its own unique horror. And African Americans are two and half times more likely than whites to be killed by law enforcement.

But, yes, non-police violence is a huge issue in the US. But I have higher standards and expectations for when the violence is perpetrated by someone sanctioned, trained, and employed by the state.

Solid Post.

Yes it is. Especially the bolded part.

I also liked this from jambr:

Liberals want to blame violent crime on outside factors and conservatives just sound racist when they bring it up (some more than others). It's okay to be a harsh critic of how these needless deaths occur - just so long as your acknowledgement comes with true concern on how to improve the situation...meaning you should actually care, not just be disgusted.

I also wonder how different, given the current situation in America at the moment, that "All life is precious." is from "All lives matter." when bringing up the subject of black on black crime.

[Roy H.]

I also wonder how different, given the current situation in America at the moment, that "All life is precious." is from "All lives matter." when bringing up the subject of black on black crime.

All lives do matter, and all life is precious.  And, when talking about “black lives”, those lives matter whether they’re victims of police or victims of gangsters.  This is something that has been discussed long before BLM, so don’t be disingenuous here.

I wonder, given the current state of America, why those preaching platitudes about unity and togetherness are among the first to fall back on bitter partisan tropes, instead of actually trying to solve problems.

[Roy H.]

- Increase gun control

Other than banning guns, there’s probably not much that can be done here without broadening enforcement powers.  My guess is that much of urban violence doesn’t involve guns legally purchased by their eventual shooter.

I think that gun control would have to come through broader enforcement by law enforcement.  Criminalize joining gangs, and give police broad power to break those gangs up.  That should apply to any gang or similar organization with one of its primary purposes being violent crime.

- Increase birth control access and education

Agreed.

- Decriminalize things that disproportionately lead to black/poor incarceration yet done at high rates across most of the population (eg Marijuana, cash bail)

Ending cash bail leads to more violence, not less.  I don’t mind decriminalization of MJ, although I don’t think there’s a giant correlation between pot and violent crime.

- De privatize all prisons; remove incentive to keep them full and understaffed

Do areas with public prisons have less violence than areas with private prisons?  These privately funded prisons are about 3% of the total prison population.

- Decarceralize by about 80-90% (bring us in line with Europe); put the tremendous amount of money currently going there toward outpatient substance abuse treatment, parenting education, work programs, etc.

America and Europe aren’t really alike here.  The idea that 9 out of every ten inmates should be let free is silly, though.  There are about 1.2 million violent crimes in the United States per year, defined as murder and non-negligent manslaughter, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, and gang violence.  There are about 2.3 million prisoners in the United States. Even if we did not incarcerate a single person for non-violent crime, your recommendation means that we’d let more than 2/3 of violent criminals do no jail time. 

Universal healthcare, to remove one of the major causes of poverty/personal bankruptcy and allow access to mental health medication and treatment

I’m not sure how much of an effect this would have.  In places where all unemployed people qualify for healthcare, has this led to reduced violence?

[ozgod]

I think there is a real crisis of single parenthood in black communities. Obviously not all single parents are in any way bad - GF’s mum for example. However, there seems to be a consistency in people who commit crimes like this hailing from broken homes.

This isn’t just a black issue, but as far as I’m aware the highest %’s of single parenthood are in African-American communities. I do think this is in part due to institutional problems that disproportionately target black men (being put away for minor & nonviolent crimes, being over-policed, etc.), but I’m not sure I can attribute it all to that. It certainly doesn’t help that the War on Drugs (as well as the CIA trafficking crack into America) ... well... happened.
You can even see when you look at mass shooters, the majority of them come from broken homes.

I’m really not sure how to target things like this.

Gouki, I'm curious...do you have these kinds of random urban homicides to the extent that we do? Obviously the prevalence of guns and ease of acquiring (not just legal but illegal, which probably make up the vast bulk of gun crime here) plays a big role in how many homicides we have - it's easier to kill someone with a gun than a knife. Certainly it plays a part in how many more mass shootings we have here, but with the kind of crimes that are described in the OP, when I lived in Sydney in the early 2000s I didn't feel like the crime rate, reported or unreported, in anything like it is here in the US. And while you don't have the type of black disenfranchisement there at the level that we do here I still found Sydney to be a pretty multicultural place, I would almost argue that it's more multicultural than Boston. I know you have gangs in Australia just like us here, like the Mafia in Melbourne and then the Lebanese gangs in Sydney. I'm sure you have your share of bad guys as well. The only thing I can really see different is the fact that guns are so much harder to get there, both legally and illegally.

I will say that I think your government responds (some might say over-responds) to acts of violence much quicker than ours do. Like after that mass shooting in the 90s that led to all guns being bought back and made illegal (would never happen here due to our Second Amendment) and also them shutting down the nightlife areas after that kid was killed by some random drunk guy who ran up to him and punched him and killed him. One death and the result was they made it so everything closed at 2am - which is the same time places close in Boston mind you, but when I lived in Sydney I remember clubs and bars being open till 6 to 8am. From what I hear it totally killed the nightlife and destroyed trade but it was their response to one guy getting killed. That would never happen here, the government would be sued for overreach.