Author Topic: Coronavirus Concerns  (Read 487196 times)

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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6150 on: September 21, 2021, 05:41:24 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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It's also entered Civil War territory in terms of total deaths.

Can we even wrap our heads around what a war that kills 2% of the population would look like?  That would be like 8 million deaths today, lost over essentially the “right” of one man to own another.

You could argue there's a parallel here, only this time it's a battle over "owning the libs."
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6151 on: September 21, 2021, 09:44:09 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Covid has now killed more Americans than the Spanish flu and is now America's worst epidemic. This off course doesn't take into consideration the epidemics the American settlers gave to Native Americans in the 17th and 18th centuries that may have killed millions.

But more Americans have died in this epidemic than the Spanish flu, even though we have more hospitals, more doctors, more nurses, better medical technology, better medical equipment and an actual vaccine that works.

Sad day in American history, if you ask me, because I think, if handled differently, we could have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

It puts into perspective how insanely deadly the Spanish flu really was.  Covid has been tremendously destructive, and 675,000 deaths shows that.  Spanish Flu killed that many people with the U.S. having less than 1/3 it’s current population.

Quote
It's also entered Civil War territory in terms of total deaths.

Can we even wrap our heads around what a war that kills 2% of the population would look like?  That would be like 8 million deaths today, lost over essentially the “right” of one man to own another.
On the other hand, we were in the middle of WWI which made mitigation by shutting down industry impossible and the US had, at points, as much as 4-5% of their total population overseas fighting the war.  That adds a bit of context.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6152 on: September 21, 2021, 09:50:00 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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It's also entered Civil War territory in terms of total deaths.

Can we even wrap our heads around what a war that kills 2% of the population would look like?  That would be like 8 million deaths today, lost over essentially the “right” of one man to own another.
It's preposterous. Genuinely preposterous. Similar to the mass death we saw in Poland in WW2 - near 6 million total deaths in a population of 35 million. But that was in WW2, not a civil war, so expectations would be different. We definitely don't do wars like those any longer (touch wood).
People forget how deadly WWI was. There were like 10 separate battles where over a half million people were killed and 4 battles where over 1 million casualties occurred, like the Battle of the Somne and the Battle of Verdun.

That's just battles, not the whole war. That is hard to wrap your mind around.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6153 on: September 21, 2021, 11:20:09 AM »

Online Moranis

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Covid has now killed more Americans than the Spanish flu and is now America's worst epidemic. This off course doesn't take into consideration the epidemics the American settlers gave to Native Americans in the 17th and 18th centuries that may have killed millions.

But more Americans have died in this epidemic than the Spanish flu, even though we have more hospitals, more doctors, more nurses, better medical technology, better medical equipment and an actual vaccine that works.

Sad day in American history, if you ask me, because I think, if handled differently, we could have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

It puts into perspective how insanely deadly the Spanish flu really was.  Covid has been tremendously destructive, and 675,000 deaths shows that.  Spanish Flu killed that many people with the U.S. having less than 1/3 it’s current population.

Quote
It's also entered Civil War territory in terms of total deaths.

Can we even wrap our heads around what a war that kills 2% of the population would look like?  That would be like 8 million deaths today, lost over essentially the “right” of one man to own another.
On the other hand, we were in the middle of WWI which made mitigation by shutting down industry impossible and the US had, at points, as much as 4-5% of their total population overseas fighting the war.  That adds a bit of context.
True, but they also hid the severity of it and minimized it, which is actually pretty similar today.  Had the rest of the world had the accurate reporting like Spain did, then that particular H1N1 outbreak might not have been as bad, even in the war.  It still would have been bad of course, but maybe not quite as bad.
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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6154 on: September 21, 2021, 02:53:43 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Regrettable milestone

Opps already reported.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6155 on: September 21, 2021, 04:45:59 PM »

Offline gouki88

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It's also entered Civil War territory in terms of total deaths.

Can we even wrap our heads around what a war that kills 2% of the population would look like?  That would be like 8 million deaths today, lost over essentially the “right” of one man to own another.
It's preposterous. Genuinely preposterous. Similar to the mass death we saw in Poland in WW2 - near 6 million total deaths in a population of 35 million. But that was in WW2, not a civil war, so expectations would be different. We definitely don't do wars like those any longer (touch wood).
People forget how deadly WWI was. There were like 10 separate battles where over a half million people were killed and 4 battles where over 1 million casualties occurred, like the Battle of the Somne and the Battle of Verdun.

That's just battles, not the whole war. That is hard to wrap your mind around.
Indeed. One of my forebears was at Gallipoli (~100,000 total deaths) and then the Somme (well over 1 million deaths). Gallipoli's casualties aren't exceptionally high, but the futility of the conflict is what makes it special. Hard to comprehend going through all that in your early 20s, or for many, as a teenager.
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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6156 on: September 21, 2021, 05:32:40 PM »

Online sgrogan

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Your interpretation is correct, but I don't want you to misunderstand how I'm using that assessment. I'm using it in two ways. One is a way to look at the critical factors between serious illness/death. Looking at it this way, you can see there is quite literally a bigger difference between life and death than the vaccine alone provides. We are not in complete control of this difference (or the many subdifferences), but they do exist and we can understand them and utilize our knowledge of them. Secondly, it is a way of understanding the thought process of people who are unvaccinated which is useful in forming a strategy to best address a diverse population.

I would agree that vaccination is the best way out of the pandemic if the vaccines sterilized against the Delta variant (for example) and did not have waning efficacy over time. Since they do, the vaccinated population that doesn't experience breakthrough cases simply delay their vulnerability period. At that point, they are chasing the variant with booster shots and venturing into uncharted territory (but look at Israel and now NY for clues), in both risk and benefit. Maybe the third shot has few risks and many benefits. But ultimately it will still be natural immunity that gets us through the pandemic as a whole. That's why I think the vaccines are a useful tool. We can try to minimize the damage while our population gets natural herd immunity. An unvaccinated population actually helps us get there, counterintuitively. I'd also like to see more focus on immediate outpatient protocol for all infected individuals, both vaccinated and unvaccinated.

I don't think the highlighted premise is supported by Science, at least not in the opinion of Dr. Scott Gottlieb, former head of the FDA.  His premise is actually just the opposite, that people with natural immunity are likely to need a vaccine at some point.

Now it should be noted that Gottlieb is on the board of Pfizer and would have an interest in selling more vaccines but I suspect that the science supporting his statements is sound.  I would be very surprised if someone with his reputation would go on TV and make this up.

We don't have enough ICUs and Ventilators to obtain "herd immunity" through natural infection in any case, unless you spread it out over 100 years or something like that.  That is a long time to not have kids in school or otherwise having social distance practices.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/01/covid-vaccine-dr-scott-gottlieb-says-people-who-had-covid-wont-be-immune-forever.html

Quote
People who previously were infected with Covid-19 should eventually get vaccinated against the disease because their immunity protection will likely wane over time, Dr. Scott Gottlieb told CNBC on Wednesday.

“The immunity conferred by natural infection seems to be robust and seems to be durable. We know it lasts at least six months, probably longer,” the former commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration said on “Squawk Box.”

“My hunch is it’s not going to last in perpetuity. At some point, those individuals are going to need to get vaccinated,” added Gottlieb, who now serves on the board of vaccine maker Pfizer.

A key question remaining about natural immunity is whether having a more severe case of Covid, compared with someone who remained asymptomatic, for example, leads to higher-quality protection.

“With SARS and MERS, we saw people who got more sick ended up having more durable immunity. We don’t know if that’s the case with this SARS-CoV-2 virus, but it might be,” Gottlieb said, referring to two other types of coronaviruses — severe acute respiratory syndrome and Middle East respiratory syndrome — that caused outbreaks in multiple countries.

Did you capitalize Science to describe Gottlieb's hunch? Lol.

What we can conclude is those who have been infected within the past year don't require a vaccine bc they have better protection than the vaccinated.

Biden's mandate should not include those who were already infected. They don't need it. Lots of others in the world do. Follow science not hunches.
Except a lot of people, like say Lamar Jackson, have in fact gotten Covid twice without getting the vaccine.  If natural immunity worked, then why do people like Lamar Jackson get it twice.  You know a guy in his 20's that is about as strong a physical specimen as any human on the planet.

Do you actually think that natural immunity isn't real? I know you have a schtick to maintain here but I find it hard to believe you are staking that position in good faith. Because you and your ancestors would be long dead if the immune system wasn't as sophisticated and adaptable as it is. I hope you appreciate that fact.

Immunity isn't a magical force field. It is a complicated set of mechanisms that learns from prior infections and dampens the impact of future infections of the same or similar type.

That's why vaccinated and naturally immune people alike are continuing to be infected. But the chance of severe illness and death is greatly reduced. This isn't controversial.
There certainly appears to be some level of natural immunity, but it also clearly is not a bar to getting it again and it seems to fade over time.  Which is why everyone should get vaccinated and with regular boosters because covid thus far has appeared to be an illness that any immunity developed is not permanent and fades over time.  Whether you get it naturally or through the vaccine it doesn't seem to matter as you can get it multiple times.  That makes covid different than many illnesses which you cannot get twice, but it certainly isn't uncommon for illness as there are all kinds of illnesses that you can't develop immunity for.

Compare the list of people having COVID twice (subtract false positives) to breakout cases among the vaccinated.

Also, there isn't stand alone evidence that natural immunity wanes. That's assumed based on cases where people have been infected twice. And I believe we've yet to see a severe case from one of those. We do see deaths and serious illness (on the rise) in vaccinated breakouts. In good faith, tell me there's not a massive difference there.
Or the natural immunity just lasts longer than the vaccine immunity, and it is only a matter of time before those that have natural immunity start to really get sick again.  That is probably the most likely since Pfizer has even said it starts seeing antibodies diminish at around 4 months.  Which is why everyone should get vaccinated with regular boosters.
Are you suggesting vaccinated people should ignore the FDA/CDC guidance and seek booster shots?

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6157 on: September 21, 2021, 06:09:07 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Your interpretation is correct, but I don't want you to misunderstand how I'm using that assessment. I'm using it in two ways. One is a way to look at the critical factors between serious illness/death. Looking at it this way, you can see there is quite literally a bigger difference between life and death than the vaccine alone provides. We are not in complete control of this difference (or the many subdifferences), but they do exist and we can understand them and utilize our knowledge of them. Secondly, it is a way of understanding the thought process of people who are unvaccinated which is useful in forming a strategy to best address a diverse population.

I would agree that vaccination is the best way out of the pandemic if the vaccines sterilized against the Delta variant (for example) and did not have waning efficacy over time. Since they do, the vaccinated population that doesn't experience breakthrough cases simply delay their vulnerability period. At that point, they are chasing the variant with booster shots and venturing into uncharted territory (but look at Israel and now NY for clues), in both risk and benefit. Maybe the third shot has few risks and many benefits. But ultimately it will still be natural immunity that gets us through the pandemic as a whole. That's why I think the vaccines are a useful tool. We can try to minimize the damage while our population gets natural herd immunity. An unvaccinated population actually helps us get there, counterintuitively. I'd also like to see more focus on immediate outpatient protocol for all infected individuals, both vaccinated and unvaccinated.

I don't think the highlighted premise is supported by Science, at least not in the opinion of Dr. Scott Gottlieb, former head of the FDA.  His premise is actually just the opposite, that people with natural immunity are likely to need a vaccine at some point.

Now it should be noted that Gottlieb is on the board of Pfizer and would have an interest in selling more vaccines but I suspect that the science supporting his statements is sound.  I would be very surprised if someone with his reputation would go on TV and make this up.

We don't have enough ICUs and Ventilators to obtain "herd immunity" through natural infection in any case, unless you spread it out over 100 years or something like that.  That is a long time to not have kids in school or otherwise having social distance practices.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/01/covid-vaccine-dr-scott-gottlieb-says-people-who-had-covid-wont-be-immune-forever.html

Quote
People who previously were infected with Covid-19 should eventually get vaccinated against the disease because their immunity protection will likely wane over time, Dr. Scott Gottlieb told CNBC on Wednesday.

“The immunity conferred by natural infection seems to be robust and seems to be durable. We know it lasts at least six months, probably longer,” the former commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration said on “Squawk Box.”

“My hunch is it’s not going to last in perpetuity. At some point, those individuals are going to need to get vaccinated,” added Gottlieb, who now serves on the board of vaccine maker Pfizer.

A key question remaining about natural immunity is whether having a more severe case of Covid, compared with someone who remained asymptomatic, for example, leads to higher-quality protection.

“With SARS and MERS, we saw people who got more sick ended up having more durable immunity. We don’t know if that’s the case with this SARS-CoV-2 virus, but it might be,” Gottlieb said, referring to two other types of coronaviruses — severe acute respiratory syndrome and Middle East respiratory syndrome — that caused outbreaks in multiple countries.

Did you capitalize Science to describe Gottlieb's hunch? Lol.

What we can conclude is those who have been infected within the past year don't require a vaccine bc they have better protection than the vaccinated.

Biden's mandate should not include those who were already infected. They don't need it. Lots of others in the world do. Follow science not hunches.
Except a lot of people, like say Lamar Jackson, have in fact gotten Covid twice without getting the vaccine.  If natural immunity worked, then why do people like Lamar Jackson get it twice.  You know a guy in his 20's that is about as strong a physical specimen as any human on the planet.

Do you actually think that natural immunity isn't real? I know you have a schtick to maintain here but I find it hard to believe you are staking that position in good faith. Because you and your ancestors would be long dead if the immune system wasn't as sophisticated and adaptable as it is. I hope you appreciate that fact.

Immunity isn't a magical force field. It is a complicated set of mechanisms that learns from prior infections and dampens the impact of future infections of the same or similar type.

That's why vaccinated and naturally immune people alike are continuing to be infected. But the chance of severe illness and death is greatly reduced. This isn't controversial.
There certainly appears to be some level of natural immunity, but it also clearly is not a bar to getting it again and it seems to fade over time.  Which is why everyone should get vaccinated and with regular boosters because covid thus far has appeared to be an illness that any immunity developed is not permanent and fades over time.  Whether you get it naturally or through the vaccine it doesn't seem to matter as you can get it multiple times.  That makes covid different than many illnesses which you cannot get twice, but it certainly isn't uncommon for illness as there are all kinds of illnesses that you can't develop immunity for.

Compare the list of people having COVID twice (subtract false positives) to breakout cases among the vaccinated.

Also, there isn't stand alone evidence that natural immunity wanes. That's assumed based on cases where people have been infected twice. And I believe we've yet to see a severe case from one of those. We do see deaths and serious illness (on the rise) in vaccinated breakouts. In good faith, tell me there's not a massive difference there.
Or the natural immunity just lasts longer than the vaccine immunity, and it is only a matter of time before those that have natural immunity start to really get sick again.  That is probably the most likely since Pfizer has even said it starts seeing antibodies diminish at around 4 months.  Which is why everyone should get vaccinated with regular boosters.
Are you suggesting vaccinated people should ignore the FDA/CDC guidance and seek booster shots?

If you got the Pfizer shot more than 6 months ago, it’s probably good advice.  The FDA made its decision about what was best for the world as a whole (I.e., getting the vaccine to as many people as possible), rather than what’s best for individual patients. 


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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6158 on: September 21, 2021, 06:20:36 PM »

Online sgrogan

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Your interpretation is correct, but I don't want you to misunderstand how I'm using that assessment. I'm using it in two ways. One is a way to look at the critical factors between serious illness/death. Looking at it this way, you can see there is quite literally a bigger difference between life and death than the vaccine alone provides. We are not in complete control of this difference (or the many subdifferences), but they do exist and we can understand them and utilize our knowledge of them. Secondly, it is a way of understanding the thought process of people who are unvaccinated which is useful in forming a strategy to best address a diverse population.

I would agree that vaccination is the best way out of the pandemic if the vaccines sterilized against the Delta variant (for example) and did not have waning efficacy over time. Since they do, the vaccinated population that doesn't experience breakthrough cases simply delay their vulnerability period. At that point, they are chasing the variant with booster shots and venturing into uncharted territory (but look at Israel and now NY for clues), in both risk and benefit. Maybe the third shot has few risks and many benefits. But ultimately it will still be natural immunity that gets us through the pandemic as a whole. That's why I think the vaccines are a useful tool. We can try to minimize the damage while our population gets natural herd immunity. An unvaccinated population actually helps us get there, counterintuitively. I'd also like to see more focus on immediate outpatient protocol for all infected individuals, both vaccinated and unvaccinated.

I don't think the highlighted premise is supported by Science, at least not in the opinion of Dr. Scott Gottlieb, former head of the FDA.  His premise is actually just the opposite, that people with natural immunity are likely to need a vaccine at some point.

Now it should be noted that Gottlieb is on the board of Pfizer and would have an interest in selling more vaccines but I suspect that the science supporting his statements is sound.  I would be very surprised if someone with his reputation would go on TV and make this up.

We don't have enough ICUs and Ventilators to obtain "herd immunity" through natural infection in any case, unless you spread it out over 100 years or something like that.  That is a long time to not have kids in school or otherwise having social distance practices.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/01/covid-vaccine-dr-scott-gottlieb-says-people-who-had-covid-wont-be-immune-forever.html

Quote
People who previously were infected with Covid-19 should eventually get vaccinated against the disease because their immunity protection will likely wane over time, Dr. Scott Gottlieb told CNBC on Wednesday.

“The immunity conferred by natural infection seems to be robust and seems to be durable. We know it lasts at least six months, probably longer,” the former commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration said on “Squawk Box.”

“My hunch is it’s not going to last in perpetuity. At some point, those individuals are going to need to get vaccinated,” added Gottlieb, who now serves on the board of vaccine maker Pfizer.

A key question remaining about natural immunity is whether having a more severe case of Covid, compared with someone who remained asymptomatic, for example, leads to higher-quality protection.

“With SARS and MERS, we saw people who got more sick ended up having more durable immunity. We don’t know if that’s the case with this SARS-CoV-2 virus, but it might be,” Gottlieb said, referring to two other types of coronaviruses — severe acute respiratory syndrome and Middle East respiratory syndrome — that caused outbreaks in multiple countries.

Did you capitalize Science to describe Gottlieb's hunch? Lol.

What we can conclude is those who have been infected within the past year don't require a vaccine bc they have better protection than the vaccinated.

Biden's mandate should not include those who were already infected. They don't need it. Lots of others in the world do. Follow science not hunches.
Except a lot of people, like say Lamar Jackson, have in fact gotten Covid twice without getting the vaccine.  If natural immunity worked, then why do people like Lamar Jackson get it twice.  You know a guy in his 20's that is about as strong a physical specimen as any human on the planet.

Do you actually think that natural immunity isn't real? I know you have a schtick to maintain here but I find it hard to believe you are staking that position in good faith. Because you and your ancestors would be long dead if the immune system wasn't as sophisticated and adaptable as it is. I hope you appreciate that fact.

Immunity isn't a magical force field. It is a complicated set of mechanisms that learns from prior infections and dampens the impact of future infections of the same or similar type.

That's why vaccinated and naturally immune people alike are continuing to be infected. But the chance of severe illness and death is greatly reduced. This isn't controversial.
There certainly appears to be some level of natural immunity, but it also clearly is not a bar to getting it again and it seems to fade over time.  Which is why everyone should get vaccinated and with regular boosters because covid thus far has appeared to be an illness that any immunity developed is not permanent and fades over time.  Whether you get it naturally or through the vaccine it doesn't seem to matter as you can get it multiple times.  That makes covid different than many illnesses which you cannot get twice, but it certainly isn't uncommon for illness as there are all kinds of illnesses that you can't develop immunity for.

Compare the list of people having COVID twice (subtract false positives) to breakout cases among the vaccinated.

Also, there isn't stand alone evidence that natural immunity wanes. That's assumed based on cases where people have been infected twice. And I believe we've yet to see a severe case from one of those. We do see deaths and serious illness (on the rise) in vaccinated breakouts. In good faith, tell me there's not a massive difference there.
Or the natural immunity just lasts longer than the vaccine immunity, and it is only a matter of time before those that have natural immunity start to really get sick again.  That is probably the most likely since Pfizer has even said it starts seeing antibodies diminish at around 4 months.  Which is why everyone should get vaccinated with regular boosters.
Are you suggesting vaccinated people should ignore the FDA/CDC guidance and seek booster shots?

If you got the Pfizer shot more than 6 months ago, it’s probably good advice.  The FDA made its decision about what was best for the world as a whole (I.e., getting the vaccine to as many people as possible), rather than what’s best for individual patients.
I tend to agree, but aren't we supposed to follow the SCIENCE?
I'm vaxed(Moderna) and will get a booster when available. But you suggest staying informed and making a decision. If we agree that's great. If we disagree, does that necessarily make one of us an idiot?

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6159 on: September 21, 2021, 07:07:42 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Your interpretation is correct, but I don't want you to misunderstand how I'm using that assessment. I'm using it in two ways. One is a way to look at the critical factors between serious illness/death. Looking at it this way, you can see there is quite literally a bigger difference between life and death than the vaccine alone provides. We are not in complete control of this difference (or the many subdifferences), but they do exist and we can understand them and utilize our knowledge of them. Secondly, it is a way of understanding the thought process of people who are unvaccinated which is useful in forming a strategy to best address a diverse population.

I would agree that vaccination is the best way out of the pandemic if the vaccines sterilized against the Delta variant (for example) and did not have waning efficacy over time. Since they do, the vaccinated population that doesn't experience breakthrough cases simply delay their vulnerability period. At that point, they are chasing the variant with booster shots and venturing into uncharted territory (but look at Israel and now NY for clues), in both risk and benefit. Maybe the third shot has few risks and many benefits. But ultimately it will still be natural immunity that gets us through the pandemic as a whole. That's why I think the vaccines are a useful tool. We can try to minimize the damage while our population gets natural herd immunity. An unvaccinated population actually helps us get there, counterintuitively. I'd also like to see more focus on immediate outpatient protocol for all infected individuals, both vaccinated and unvaccinated.

I don't think the highlighted premise is supported by Science, at least not in the opinion of Dr. Scott Gottlieb, former head of the FDA.  His premise is actually just the opposite, that people with natural immunity are likely to need a vaccine at some point.

Now it should be noted that Gottlieb is on the board of Pfizer and would have an interest in selling more vaccines but I suspect that the science supporting his statements is sound.  I would be very surprised if someone with his reputation would go on TV and make this up.

We don't have enough ICUs and Ventilators to obtain "herd immunity" through natural infection in any case, unless you spread it out over 100 years or something like that.  That is a long time to not have kids in school or otherwise having social distance practices.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/01/covid-vaccine-dr-scott-gottlieb-says-people-who-had-covid-wont-be-immune-forever.html

Quote
People who previously were infected with Covid-19 should eventually get vaccinated against the disease because their immunity protection will likely wane over time, Dr. Scott Gottlieb told CNBC on Wednesday.

“The immunity conferred by natural infection seems to be robust and seems to be durable. We know it lasts at least six months, probably longer,” the former commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration said on “Squawk Box.”

“My hunch is it’s not going to last in perpetuity. At some point, those individuals are going to need to get vaccinated,” added Gottlieb, who now serves on the board of vaccine maker Pfizer.

A key question remaining about natural immunity is whether having a more severe case of Covid, compared with someone who remained asymptomatic, for example, leads to higher-quality protection.

“With SARS and MERS, we saw people who got more sick ended up having more durable immunity. We don’t know if that’s the case with this SARS-CoV-2 virus, but it might be,” Gottlieb said, referring to two other types of coronaviruses — severe acute respiratory syndrome and Middle East respiratory syndrome — that caused outbreaks in multiple countries.

Did you capitalize Science to describe Gottlieb's hunch? Lol.

What we can conclude is those who have been infected within the past year don't require a vaccine bc they have better protection than the vaccinated.

Biden's mandate should not include those who were already infected. They don't need it. Lots of others in the world do. Follow science not hunches.
Except a lot of people, like say Lamar Jackson, have in fact gotten Covid twice without getting the vaccine.  If natural immunity worked, then why do people like Lamar Jackson get it twice.  You know a guy in his 20's that is about as strong a physical specimen as any human on the planet.

Do you actually think that natural immunity isn't real? I know you have a schtick to maintain here but I find it hard to believe you are staking that position in good faith. Because you and your ancestors would be long dead if the immune system wasn't as sophisticated and adaptable as it is. I hope you appreciate that fact.

Immunity isn't a magical force field. It is a complicated set of mechanisms that learns from prior infections and dampens the impact of future infections of the same or similar type.

That's why vaccinated and naturally immune people alike are continuing to be infected. But the chance of severe illness and death is greatly reduced. This isn't controversial.
There certainly appears to be some level of natural immunity, but it also clearly is not a bar to getting it again and it seems to fade over time.  Which is why everyone should get vaccinated and with regular boosters because covid thus far has appeared to be an illness that any immunity developed is not permanent and fades over time.  Whether you get it naturally or through the vaccine it doesn't seem to matter as you can get it multiple times.  That makes covid different than many illnesses which you cannot get twice, but it certainly isn't uncommon for illness as there are all kinds of illnesses that you can't develop immunity for.

Compare the list of people having COVID twice (subtract false positives) to breakout cases among the vaccinated.

Also, there isn't stand alone evidence that natural immunity wanes. That's assumed based on cases where people have been infected twice. And I believe we've yet to see a severe case from one of those. We do see deaths and serious illness (on the rise) in vaccinated breakouts. In good faith, tell me there's not a massive difference there.
Or the natural immunity just lasts longer than the vaccine immunity, and it is only a matter of time before those that have natural immunity start to really get sick again.  That is probably the most likely since Pfizer has even said it starts seeing antibodies diminish at around 4 months.  Which is why everyone should get vaccinated with regular boosters.
Are you suggesting vaccinated people should ignore the FDA/CDC guidance and seek booster shots?

If you got the Pfizer shot more than 6 months ago, it’s probably good advice.  The FDA made its decision about what was best for the world as a whole (I.e., getting the vaccine to as many people as possible), rather than what’s best for individual patients.
I tend to agree, but aren't we supposed to follow the SCIENCE?
I'm vaxed(Moderna) and will get a booster when available. But you suggest staying informed and making a decision. If we agree that's great. If we disagree, does that necessarily make one of us an idiot?

The science says get the booster.  The bureaucrats say not to.

Quote
If we agree that's great. If we disagree, does that necessarily make one of us an idiot?

It depends on what we’re talking about.  By way of example:

Is climate change happening?  Yes.  Disagreement = idiot

Is mankind contributing to climate change?  Yes.  Disagreement = idiot

What policies should we enact to mitigate climate change?  Reasonable minds can disagree.  There may be idiots in the conversation, but there are both legitimate and fringe views on both sides.

An example of this:  I just read about a bar / restaurant that kicks people out for being masked.  That’s idiocy.

Those arguing that vaccines don’t lessen risk or spread overall are idiots.

Those who are pregnant / prone to blood clots / making decisions for their children who want to wait for additional data?  Not idiots.


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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6160 on: September 21, 2021, 09:51:35 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Meanwhile, in NYC, a hostess at a restaurant got attacked by patrons from Texas for doing her job and asking for proof of inoculation, as is now law in the city for all restaurants. Two other waiters were hurt as well as they tried to break up the attack on their co-worker.

Man, I don't care on what side of the debate you fall on when it comes to vaccinations, masking or social distancing, but when workers at restaurants or retail stores or public buildings ask that you follow the law or the policy of the businesses and places in question, please either do it or go somewhere else. It's not these poor hourly workers that make the rules and laws. They are just letting you know what you have to do in order to go into those buildings and establishments.

Way too many of those workers have been attacked and killed during this pandemic doing their jobs. We should be better than this. Those poor hard working people deserve better.

Apparently craziness isn't limited to just the United States:

Quote
A young student working as a gas station cashier in Germany was shot and killed after declining to sell beer to a customer who refused to mask up, prosecutors said. The Saturday evening killing in the town of Idar-Oberstein came after an unmasked 49-year-old man entered the station, placing two six-packs of beer on the counter. The 20-year-old clerk asked him to put on a mask. The customer refused and left, but returned an hour later, wearing a mask that he pulled down to address the cashier. When the attendant again insisted on the mask, the man pulled out an unlicensed firearm and shot him in the head.


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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6161 on: September 22, 2021, 03:30:19 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Meanwhile, in NYC, a hostess at a restaurant got attacked by patrons from Texas for doing her job and asking for proof of inoculation, as is now law in the city for all restaurants. Two other waiters were hurt as well as they tried to break up the attack on their co-worker.

Man, I don't care on what side of the debate you fall on when it comes to vaccinations, masking or social distancing, but when workers at restaurants or retail stores or public buildings ask that you follow the law or the policy of the businesses and places in question, please either do it or go somewhere else. It's not these poor hourly workers that make the rules and laws. They are just letting you know what you have to do in order to go into those buildings and establishments.

Way too many of those workers have been attacked and killed during this pandemic doing their jobs. We should be better than this. Those poor hard working people deserve better.

Apparently craziness isn't limited to just the United States:

Quote
A young student working as a gas station cashier in Germany was shot and killed after declining to sell beer to a customer who refused to mask up, prosecutors said. The Saturday evening killing in the town of Idar-Oberstein came after an unmasked 49-year-old man entered the station, placing two six-packs of beer on the counter. The 20-year-old clerk asked him to put on a mask. The customer refused and left, but returned an hour later, wearing a mask that he pulled down to address the cashier. When the attendant again insisted on the mask, the man pulled out an unlicensed firearm and shot him in the head.
Dear god, how horrible.
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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6162 on: September 22, 2021, 04:22:25 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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So, per one of the editors at Breitbart, the reason that Trump supporters are actually not getting vaccinated is because of "the organised left" using reverse psychology to keep them from getting the vaccine so that they die off:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/18/nolte-anti-vaxxers-hype-benign-transmission-numbers-as-proof-vax-doesnt-work/

The mind boggles to a degree that no mind has boggled before.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6163 on: September 22, 2021, 04:54:33 AM »

Offline gouki88

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So, per one of the editors at Breitbart, the reason that Trump supporters are actually not getting vaccinated is because of "the organised left" using reverse psychology to keep them from getting the vaccine so that they die off:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/18/nolte-anti-vaxxers-hype-benign-transmission-numbers-as-proof-vax-doesnt-work/

The mind boggles to a degree that no mind has boggled before.
This quote is particularly telling:
Quote
The media and Democrats are demonizing the unvaccinated in the exact same way Hitler demonized the Jews

The victim complex you encounter from some of these people (who are, ironically, more than willing to call others 'snowflakes') is astounding!
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Re: Coronavirus Concerns
« Reply #6164 on: September 22, 2021, 07:07:26 AM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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So, per one of the editors at Breitbart, the reason that Trump supporters are actually not getting vaccinated is because of "the organised left" using reverse psychology to keep them from getting the vaccine so that they die off:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/18/nolte-anti-vaxxers-hype-benign-transmission-numbers-as-proof-vax-doesnt-work/

The mind boggles to a degree that no mind has boggled before.
This quote is particularly telling:
Quote
The media and Democrats are demonizing the unvaccinated in the exact same way Hitler demonized the Jews

The victim complex you encounter from some of these people (who are, ironically, more than willing to call others 'snowflakes') is astounding!

Trump and his ilk are more than willing to play with fire.  Fire is their  their source of power.   Not every Trump supporter is a no-vax/mask thug. But just about every no vax/mask thug is a Trump supporter.  Trump’s pandering to this volatile voting block and his willingness to empower and incite them is the closest I’ve seen to a Nazi dynamic in my lifetime (speaking of Nazi’s).  In fairness, this is not 1930 Nazi Germany and Trump isn’t Hitler, but we are perilously close to this demagogue attaining a tremendously unique position of power — singlehandedly owning Congress and Senate - in just one year, and possibly taking control of the executive branch in 3 years.   Not to mention a SCOTUS that he’s had a considerable hand in shaping.  The Biden administration’s incompetence over the last month only emboldens him and his media and congressional sycophants.