CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: vinnie on January 05, 2013, 09:26:42 PM
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Now let's keep it going. Discuss.
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Best game of the season. The celtics are back! Thanks Avery.
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When we press and force teams to labor getting into their offense we win. Plain and simple.
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crank up that trade value boys... 10 days till the shoppin begins.
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I'm going to take a lot of heat for this, but I saw the game as more of a Hawks collapse than a Celtics comeback.
Don't get me wrong, Pierce played out of his mind in the third, Rondo was spectacular, and Sully did a great job on the boards, but Atlanta helped us out by taking awful shots in the second half.
I will say this: Bradley's return has rejuvenated us defensively. Everyone is playing harder. I like it.
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When Jason Terry applied a press on the pointguard... That was something.
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crank up that trade value boys... 10 days till the shoppin begins.
Not if we keep playing like these past two games.
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fabulous comeback. i loved it.
the key was defense, of course. in the first quarter the celtics were slow on covering perimiter shoots and getting to loose balls. plus atlanta was just unconscious on offense. credit to them.
in the second half the celtics played celtic defense. terry was a terror!! ;D the defense changed the game. then pierce looked great in the third period.
rondo had another great game, which was needed.
AB looked good, maybe his energy is changing how other play defense. i hope so.
great great game.
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I'm going to take a lot of heat for this, but I saw the game as more of a Hawks collapse than a Celtics comeback.
Don't get me wrong, Pierce played out of his mind in the third, Rondo was spectacular, and Sully did a great job on the boards, but Atlanta helped us out by taking awful shots in the second half.
I will say this: Bradley's return has rejuvenated us defensively. Everyone is playing harder. I like it.
amazing how contagious it was tonight
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Now let's keep it going. Discuss.
who hacked Vinnie's account? We have an impostor posting something positive about the C's ;)
loved the second half. combination of much tougher D and Hawks being a 'dumb' team that doesn't know enough to jack up bad shots when they're in a downward slide.
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I'm going to take a lot of heat for this, but I saw the game as more of a Hawks collapse than a Celtics comeback.
Don't get me wrong, Pierce played out of his mind in the third, Rondo was spectacular, and Sully did a great job on the boards, but Atlanta helped us out by taking awful shots in the second half.
I will say this: Bradley's return has rejuvenated us defensively. Everyone is playing harder. I like it.
amazing how contagious it was tonight
When the Jet was pressuring the ball, I thought, "Why is Bradley wearing a headband?" Haha
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The way we played in the last two games along with the fourth quarter against Memphis...if we keep playing like this then we don't need a trade.
To me there are two huge factors that have led to this turnaround:
1. Return of Avery Bradley
Bradley's return has been big for us because the impact of this is two-fold:
i) Ball pressure.
Bradley definately impacts the game with the defensive pressure he applies as long as he's on the court.
ii) Rotations.
Bringing Bradley back allows us to move Terry to the bench where he shines. With Terry, Lee, Green and Sullinger coming off he bench we have one of the more ballanced second units in the league. Terry and Green bring scoring, Lee helps with his on-ball pressure and Sullinger dominates the interior with his rebounding and banging inside.
2. Lineup change
Our lack of size on the bench has killed us. By moving either Bass or Sully into the starting lineup, it allows us to bring Collins off the bench.
This means we almost always have a big 7-foot presence on the court, and the combination of Collins and Sullinger in the front court will leave many opposing teams bruised and battered. I assure you it's a front that nobody wants to run into.
It's amazing how the smallest changes can impact a team.
Also it's absolutely clear as day that everybody on this team (KG, Pierce, Rondo, Terry, Green, Collins, Sully) have all been playing harder on defense since Bradley's return. It sounds crazy, but it really does seem like his effort level is contagious. The last two games everybody is playing with an energy and passion that just didn't exist before that.
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crank up that trade value boys... 10 days till the shoppin begins.
Not if we keep playing like these past two games.
I think a trade is still coming and hope that Green is going
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Now let's keep it going. Discuss.
who hacked Vinnie's account? We have an impostor posting something positive about the C's ;)
loved the second half. combination of much tougher D and Hawks being a 'dumb' team that doesn't know enough to jack up bad shots when they're in a downward slide.
As I have said many times, I don't disappear when this team wins. The Celtics have been my favorite team since Johnny Most. Go, Celts.
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Oh and another key factor tonight - Bass found his confidence again. He was taking those midrange jumpers without hessitating, and he was talking them with last season's form.
If he keeps that up he will win me back as a fan!
To me it looks like Bass plays far more comfortably when he is starting. It seems almost as if coming off the bench hurts his confidence, and he just plays with more hessitation and less energy.
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Now let's keep it going. Discuss.
who hacked Vinnie's account? We have an impostor posting something positive about the C's ;)
loved the second half. combination of much tougher D and Hawks being a 'dumb' team that doesn't know enough to jack up bad shots when they're in a downward slide.
As I have said many times, I don't disappear when this team wins. The Celtics have been my favorite team since Johnny Most. Go, Celts.
no doubts about your loyalty Vinnie. You've been here through thick and thin. Just enjoying a positive post from you this season.
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I wuz drinking me sum beer and watching my boy Avery beast n dat D
git none better dat
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crank up that trade value boys... 10 days till the shoppin begins.
Not if we keep playing like these past two games.
I think a trade is still coming and hope that Green is going
We're still under .500... a couple wins is inevitable. All part of the ebbs and flow of a mediocre ballclub. You win some and you lose some. Hopefully we can make a move before the deadline to fix this roster's greater concerns.
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So what's the consensus on Bradley at this point? Mini Bruce Bowen? Poor man's Tony Allen? Is he rusty? Is this what we can expect from him long-term? Is he the Kendrick Perkins of undersized shooting guards?... someone whose contributions never show up on the stat sheet, but his defensive impact makes him a crucial role player?
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So what's the consensus on Bradley at this point? Mini Bruce Bowen? Poor man's Tony Allen? Is he rusty? Is this what we can expect from him long-term? Is he the Kendrick Perkins of undersized shooting guards?... someone whose contributions never show up on the stat sheet, but his defensive impact makes him a crucial role player?
Tony Allen with a brain?
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So what's the consensus on Bradley at this point? Mini Bruce Bowen? Poor man's Tony Allen? Is he rusty? Is this what we can expect from him long-term? Is he the Kendrick Perkins of undersized shooting guards?... someone whose contributions never show up on the stat sheet, but his defensive impact makes him a crucial role player?
Tony Allen with a brain?
That's what I was calling him last year... Poor man's Tony Allen without the mental lapses. He's smaller than Tony and probably not as good offensively (not that Tony was/is much of an offensive player either)
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A few things I noticed after watching Q3 &Q4.
1. Green should/needs to be more dominant on BOTH sides of the Ball!! The C's bench play and domination of other benches is strictly dependent on Him!
2. Courtney Lee is STILL lost on offense, there was a play in the the Q3 where Terry had to push him out from just standing there. DOC make sure that he knows what to do!
3. Avery does make a difference!
4. Sullinger is a GREAT rookie and hustles.
5. I'd still love to have Fab Melo on the 2nd unit instead of Wilcox/Jason Collins. Much more of a defensive presence.
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So what's the consensus on Bradley at this point? Mini Bruce Bowen? Poor man's Tony Allen? Is he rusty? Is this what we can expect from him long-term? Is he the Kendrick Perkins of undersized shooting guards?... someone whose contributions never show up on the stat sheet, but his defensive impact makes him a crucial role player?
GOD
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So what's the consensus on Bradley at this point? Mini Bruce Bowen? Poor man's Tony Allen? Is he rusty? Is this what we can expect from him long-term? Is he the Kendrick Perkins of undersized shooting guards?... someone whose contributions never show up on the stat sheet, but his defensive impact makes him a crucial role player?
Avery Bradley can be a two way player.
Bradley shouldn't be restricted to comparisons to players like Tony Allen and Bruce Bowen. It's premature. It looks like Bradley already has (small sample size though) better shooting ability than TA and better ball-handling and passing than Bowen.
Give Bradley some more time to figure things out offensively and see if he can add some shot-creation / dribble penetration to his current repertoire of offensive moves. He has more upside than a one way player (defender) with a limited offensive game.
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Tommy point for vinnie.
Absolutely cracking 3rd quarter. Wow.
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Just got home...LOVE IT!
In the words of ESPN's Stuart Scott - "Boston must be butter, 'cause they're on a roll", lol...
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So what's the consensus on Bradley at this point? Mini Bruce Bowen? Poor man's Tony Allen? Is he rusty? Is this what we can expect from him long-term? Is he the Kendrick Perkins of undersized shooting guards?... someone whose contributions never show up on the stat sheet, but his defensive impact makes him a crucial role player?
Tony Allen with a brain?
That's what I was calling him last year... Poor man's Tony Allen without the mental lapses. He's smaller than Tony and probably not as good offensively (not that Tony was/is much of an offensive player either)
When Tony was Bradley's age he was still playing college ball. We shouldn't be fooled by Bradley's missing a bucket or two in his first three games back, he just kicked into full team practices a couple of weeks ago after not playing for the better part of a year.
Originally the thought had been to tune him up for a couple of games in Maine, but he came back so strong that Doc immediately put him in the starting lineup.
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Avery's going to take a while to get his shooting touch. Three games is too early to judge him. It took him a while when he started getting regular minutes last season.
The best part about Avery is his infectious effect on the rest of the team. He inspires better defense out of everyone.
Rondo, Lee and even Terry are defending better with Avery out there giving his heart into every possession.
His defense is game changing not because of his individual skill, but his effort is like KG's- it's contagious.
People forget that this was a team built for the playoffs- no one cares what their record is so long as they make the final 8.
Once they get there, then the real season starts.
Avery has plenty of time to get into a groove and start finishing easy shots.
Sullinger is looking awesome- he just bangs with anybody and his IQ is through the roof. Combine that with his defensive improvement and intelligence on defense and for me he's making up for the less than inspiring play of Green...
Jeff Green is still stirring up a disappointment factor- it's really frustrating to see a guy with the physical tools he has just make mistakes continuously and under perform.
He needs medication of some kind and I hope they're looking into those options. His focus and concentration are just atrocious at times. He's just lost.
Lee is doing dirty work and improving. For 5 million a year I'm really happy with him.
Terry's been pretty much useless and Barbosa chooses to not defend or run any of Doc's offense so he's warming the pine and probably will be unless we have some injuries.
One thing that is clicking is the defense. It's getting great.
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This team better not start playing with my heart....go one way or the other
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crank up that trade value boys... 10 days till the shoppin begins.
Not if we keep playing like these past two games.
I think a trade is still coming and hope that Green is going
Honestly I would rather move Terry.
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crank up that trade value boys... 10 days till the shoppin begins.
Not if we keep playing like these past two games.
I think a trade is still coming and hope that Green is going
Honestly I would rather move Terry.
In this league you need 3 point shooters to spread the floor for your other players. Trading terry makes us a pretty poor team from outside.
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Where can one find a replay of the entire game (and not just this one, but any Cs game)?
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Where can one find a replay of the entire game (and not just this one, but any Cs game)?
On NBA league pass, where you have to sit through 4 of the same NBA cares ads every timeout.
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What the hell is up with all this Terry hate? There is no justification for it at all.
Terry was brought in as a scorer, with the expectation that he would be able to give us 10-12 points per game off the bench (and provide us with the offensive threat our bench has needed for years) while also offering the ability to spend a small amount of time at the PG spot to back up Rondo when neeed.
So far that is exactly what he's giving us - he's averaging 14 Points per 36 minutes, he's shooting 38% from three, he's shooting 87% from the free throw line, he's taking care of the ball (only 1.2 TO per game) and every single statistical resource I've seen says that he's been one of out top 3 players defensively.
Honestly, what do you people want? Did you expect him to come here and have a breakout season (at 35 years of age) to average 20 PPG on 50% shooting? Did you expect him to suddenly learn elite PG skills from Rondo and average 7 assists per game? Did you expect him to learn from an injured Avery Bradley and suddently become a DPOTY candidate?
I just don't get it.
I totally understand the dissapoitment with Green because his youth, athleticism and talent gave hope that he could have a breakout season and be something special, while he's proven to be nothing but a role player. Plus I get that his contract far exceeds his production.
I totally understand the dissapointment with Bass because he played so well last season, was rewarded with a nice contract, and his production this season has become worse in every statistical category.
With Terry though we are only paying him the $5M Midlevel exception based on what we expected from him, and he's given us exactly what was expected. He's clearly earning his pay, so I honestly have no idea at all what the deal is.
For all the people dissing Terry, please tell me honestly what you expected from him that he hasn't fulfulled?
Finally consider that Terry is the only dependable shooting in our backcourt that opposing teams need to respect. Rondo is a poor three point shooter, Barbosa is streaky, Lee is struggling and Bradley is going to take time to find his shot. Outside of the backcourt you also have Green who (like Barbosa) is steaky.
Terry and Pierce are pretty much the only shooters we can depend on from game to game, so why on earth would anyone want to trade one of those guys away from a team that already struggles offensively as it is?
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What the hell is up with all this Terry hate? There is no justification for it at all.
Terry was brought in as a scorer, with the expectation that he would be able to give us 10-12 points per game off the bench (and provide us with the offensive threat our bench has needed for years) while also offering the ability to spend a small amount of time at the PG spot to back up Rondo when neeed.
So far that is exactly what he's giving us - he's averaging 14 Points per 36 minutes, he's shooting 38% from three, he's shooting 87% from the free throw line, he's taking care of the ball (only 1.2 TO per game) and every single statistical resource I've seen says that he's been one of out top 3 players defensively.
Honestly, what do you people want? Did you expect him to come here and have a breakout season (at 35 years of age) to average 20 PPG on 50% shooting? Did you expect him to suddenly learn elite PG skills from Rondo and average 7 assists per game? Did you expect him to learn from an injured Avery Bradley and suddently become a DPOTY candidate?
I just don't get it.
I totally understand the dissapoitment with Green because his youth, athleticism and talent gave hope that he could have a breakout season and be something special, while he's proven to be nothing but a role player. Plus I get that his contract far exceeds his production.
I totally understand the dissapointment with Bass because he played so well last season, was rewarded with a nice contract, and his production this season has become worse in every statistical category.
With Terry though we are only paying him the $5M Midlevel exception based on what we expected from him, and he's given us exactly what was expected. He's clearly earning his pay, so I honestly have no idea at all what the deal is.
For all the people dissing Terry, please tell me honestly what you expected from him that he hasn't fulfulled?
Finally consider that Terry is the only dependable shooting in our backcourt that opposing teams need to respect. Rondo is a poor three point shooter, Barbosa is streaky, Lee is struggling and Bradley is going to take time to find his shot. Outside of the backcourt you also have Green who (like Barbosa) is steaky.
Terry and Pierce are pretty much the only shooters we can depend on from game to game, so why on earth would anyone want to trade one of those guys away from a team that already struggles offensively as it is?
I think a center is a stronger need than a three point shooter off the bench. I suggested trading Terry because I think he is a solid trade chip that we would use to help us. Bradley and Sully would be worth something to other teams but I don't want to trade either. Green's contract might be a bit much which drives his price down. Bass is not playing well so if you traded him it would be selling low. So I picked Terry to move because he makes the most sense and I see a center as a bigger need than what he does.
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Finally consider that Terry is the only dependable shooting in our backcourt that opposing teams need to respect. Rondo is a poor three point shooter, Barbosa is streaky, Lee is struggling and Bradley is going to take time to find his shot. Outside of the backcourt you also have Green who (like Barbosa) is steaky.
Ah yes, Lee is struggling with his shot... not only does he have the highest FG% after Rondo from our guard/wing positions, shooting a career high 48% from the field, he's shooting over 50% from the field in the last 17 games since December.
So no, Lee isn't struggling.
If the context was his 3 point shot, he's actually shooting it better than Terry recently. Over the same span, Lee has been shooting the 3 at a 41% clip.
If anything, Lee has been struggling to find opportunities to score because he's been a very willing passer, and a better job could be done to get him the ball when he's open in the corner.
The issue here as far as Lee is concerned is not struggling with his shot, but find the opportunities to shoot.
During that same span, Terry has been shooting from 3-point at 34%.
Terry though shoots more than Lee, at the moment he's a high risk high reward player, while Lee is low-risk low reward in his usage. I think the team can afford to currently make Lee a player to risk more from, and hopefully be rewarded more than Terry has.
All that said, I want to keep all our guards as is. Just would like a tweak on how Doc is using them.
If the need to find a good impact player arises, and we absolutely need to trade one of them, I'd rather trade Barbosa, and if not then Terry. Lee is a better fit for us mainly because both Rondo and Bradley are undersized, and Terry hurts us too often when Doc plays him as a SG alongside Rondo, yet he keeps going to that.
If people want a center, then the player to trade is Bass. Once Wilcox returns, he won't be missed, and I think Wilcox is a better fit anyways... just have my doubts about his capability to remain healthy. That said, with Sullinger at hand,if we can turn Bass into a center who can give us some good minutes for a couple of years, or a center who's an expiring contract, I'd do it with little hesitation.
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What the hell is up with all this Terry hate? There is no justification for it at all.
Terry was brought in as a scorer, with the expectation that he would be able to give us 10-12 points per game off the bench (and provide us with the offensive threat our bench has needed for years) while also offering the ability to spend a small amount of time at the PG spot to back up Rondo when neeed.
So far that is exactly what he's giving us - he's averaging 14 Points per 36 minutes, he's shooting 38% from three, he's shooting 87% from the free throw line, he's taking care of the ball (only 1.2 TO per game) and every single statistical resource I've seen says that he's been one of out top 3 players defensively.
Honestly, what do you people want? Did you expect him to come here and have a breakout season (at 35 years of age) to average 20 PPG on 50% shooting? Did you expect him to suddenly learn elite PG skills from Rondo and average 7 assists per game? Did you expect him to learn from an injured Avery Bradley and suddently become a DPOTY candidate?
I just don't get it.
I totally understand the dissapoitment with Green because his youth, athleticism and talent gave hope that he could have a breakout season and be something special, while he's proven to be nothing but a role player. Plus I get that his contract far exceeds his production.
I totally understand the dissapointment with Bass because he played so well last season, was rewarded with a nice contract, and his production this season has become worse in every statistical category.
With Terry though we are only paying him the $5M Midlevel exception based on what we expected from him, and he's given us exactly what was expected. He's clearly earning his pay, so I honestly have no idea at all what the deal is.
For all the people dissing Terry, please tell me honestly what you expected from him that he hasn't fulfulled?
Finally consider that Terry is the only dependable shooting in our backcourt that opposing teams need to respect. Rondo is a poor three point shooter, Barbosa is streaky, Lee is struggling and Bradley is going to take time to find his shot. Outside of the backcourt you also have Green who (like Barbosa) is steaky.
Terry and Pierce are pretty much the only shooters we can depend on from game to game, so why on earth would anyone want to trade one of those guys away from a team that already struggles offensively as it is?
I think a center is a stronger need than a three point shooter off the bench. I suggested trading Terry because I think he is a solid trade chip that we would use to help us. Bradley and Sully would be worth something to other teams but I don't want to trade either. Green's contract might be a bit much which drives his price down. Bass is not playing well so if you traded him it would be selling low. So I picked Terry to move because he makes the most sense and I see a center as a bigger need than what he does.
I don't want a trade but what you a suggesting should be Lee instead of Jet... Jet is more than just a 3 point shooter who will spread the floor, he is what he showed tonight, when the games gets down to the wire, he will gladly take and hit the big shots! He is the guy who will break a team's heart when they think they are getting momentum... he breaks hearts by extending leads (so you didn't see him in the finals in 2011?)!! What big do you think we are going to get that you know can give us what we need when the going gets tough? Atl started to battle back, we kept missing, Jet stepped up... it will be tougher in the playoffs, he has been there and DONE/WON that! Lee has been really good for us (again, I don't want a trade) but are you telling me you'd rather have him when the playoffs come round over Jet? I'd like to have both but if it came down to who you send out first then it has to be Lee (even with his very solid play)!
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Get some rest, BOS - then it's on to NY on Monday.
Let's keep the good times rolling, please.
Nullify Melo, JR and Novak and we got this one, too!
Lock Em' Down, BOS!
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I think a center is a stronger need than a three point shooter off the bench. I suggested trading Terry because I think he is a solid trade chip that we would use to help us.
Terry makes sense for a team that has playoff aspirations. Those teams tend to not have decent center available. You're better off using Lee rather than Terry as a solid trade chip in a deal with a non-playoff team for a big who is not in the team's future plans because some idiot GM might overvalue Lee as a possible long-term solid starting SG.
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I think a center is a stronger need than a three point shooter off the bench. I suggested trading Terry because I think he is a solid trade chip that we would use to help us. Bradley and Sully would be worth something to other teams but I don't want to trade either. Green's contract might be a bit much which drives his price down. Bass is not playing well so if you traded him it would be selling low. So I picked Terry to move because he makes the most sense and I see a center as a bigger need than what he does.
We have been a pretty successful team over the past 5 seasons, do you recall who our backup centers were?
2007-2008: PJ Brown / Brian Scalabrine
2008-2009: Brian Scalabrine / Mikki Moore
2009-2010: Rasheed Wallace / Brian Scalabrine
2010-2011: Glenn Davis (Shaq, JO, Krstic all had injuries)
2011-2012: Greg Stiemsma / Ryan Hollins
Do they look like teams that had outstanding backup centers to you?
On the other hand we have ALWAYS had multiple outside shooting threats. Obviously we had Pierce (as with now) but we also had:
* In 2008 Ray, Posey and Eddie House
* In 2009 Ray and Eddie House
* In 2010 Ray, Eddie House and Rasheed Wallace
* In 2011 Ray, Nate Robinson, Delonte West, Sasa Pavlovic,
* in 2012 Ray, Mickeal Pietrus, Sasha Pavlovic
Ray Allen was the #1 guy as a shooter who defenses needed to pay attention to. No defense would ever dream of leaving him open.
Second tier shooters were Eddie House, Nate Robinson, Rasheed, Pavlovic, Pietrus. These uys are no Ray Allen, but if they are streak shooters who can kill you from three if they get hot. You need to keep an eye on them.
This season Terry is like our Ray Allen equivalent. He's the guy that opposing defenses will always put a body on becuase he has an exceptional history as a three point shooter, and his reputation along draws defenders out.
Our second tier of shooters basically comes down to Barbosa - he's no pure shooter, but he's streaky and can kill you when he's hot (much like Eddie House). He's also only averaged 5 minutes per game over our last 8 games
Then we have Green, Bradley and Lee who are all third Tier shooters. Everyone knows these guys can hit the open three, but you aren't going to break a sweat about closing out on them because none of those guys are shooting over 32% for the season from three. In fact you almost WANT these guys to take a three, because they are far more dangerous from midrange (Lee, Bradley) or off the dribble (Green).
You need to consider that Terry has been top 15 or top 20 in the NBA in clutch scoring over the past several seasons. If we make the playoffs we are going to desperately need that scoring, and if we DON'T make the playoffs then it's all irrelevant anyway.
Personally I think all we need is to have a big body on the court at all times. As long as Collins and/or Fab Melo can come off the bench and back up KG for 20 minutes at the center spot, I think that's all we need in order to win games. So far it's worked well, and we've won by an average of 13 points over the two games since we've gone to that lineup. Lets give it some time and see how it plays out before we trade away our third best scorer and cripple our entire offense.
Ah yes, Lee is struggling with his shot... not only does he have the highest FG% after Rondo from our guard/wing positions, shooting a career high 48% from the field, he's shooting over 50% from the field in the last 17 games since December.
So no, Lee isn't struggling.
Lets say Boston have Lee on one corner, Terry on the other corner, and the opposing team wants to double Pierce.
Do you think the opponent would rather leave Terry open or Lee? I guarantee you they keep a body on Terry and leave Lee open if they had to make that choice.
Lee might be shooting 'better' over his recent stretch, but he is shooting 32% from three for the season. For the season Lee is shooting 35% on corner threes and 29% on above the break threes, neither figure is scary enough to scare opposing teams into overplaying him. His overall FG% is high because he's scoring very efectively off layups and from midrange, but his three point shot has been shaky to the point where every time he takes a three I cringe. To add to this I've watched pretty much every game this season, and almost every single three Lee's taken has been wide open. He very rarely shoots from three if he's contested and will generally pass the ball.
Terry is shooting 38% from three for the season. He is shooting 41% on corner threes and 36% on above the break threes. Both of those figures are solid. He has a well known reputation as a three point shooter and a back-breaker in the clutch and opposing teams will always respect his shot and keep a defender on him. This spreads the defense and gives guys like Rondo, Lee, Barbosa and Bradley opportunities to cut to the basket. Many of Terry's three-point shots have also been contested, yet he's still shooting a higher percentage than Lee for the season.
Terry also takes far more attempts than Lee. Terry is attempting 5.5 Three Pointers per 36 minutes, while Lee is attempting 2.3 attempts per 36 minutes. If Lee were taking twice as many attempts as Terry I'm guessing his percentage for the season would be more like 26% rather than 32%.
So despite the fact that Terry is taking twice as many attempts, gets more defensive attention and takes more contested shots, he's still shooting at a significantly higher percentage for the season than Lee is from the three point line.
The fact that Lee has shot as well from three as Jeff Green (both at 32%) this season should tell you all you need to know. Both of those are guys who are capable of hitting the three, but they aren't the guys you want taking that shot when the game is on the line.
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I think a center is a stronger need than a three point shooter off the bench. I suggested trading Terry because I think he is a solid trade chip that we would use to help us. Bradley and Sully would be worth something to other teams but I don't want to trade either. Green's contract might be a bit much which drives his price down. Bass is not playing well so if you traded him it would be selling low. So I picked Terry to move because he makes the most sense and I see a center as a bigger need than what he does.
We have been a pretty successful team over the past 5 seasons, do you recall who our backup centers were?
2007-2008: PJ Brown / Brian Scalabrine
2008-2009: Brian Scalabrine / Mikki Moore
2009-2010: Rasheed Wallace / Brian Scalabrine
2010-2011: Glenn Davis (Shaq, JO, Krstic all had injuries)
2011-2012: Greg Stiemsma / Ryan Hollins
Do they look like teams that had outstanding backup centers to you?
On the other hand we have ALWAYS had multiple outside shooting threats. Obviously we had Pierce (as with now) but we also had:
* In 2008 Ray, Posey and Eddie House
* In 2009 Ray and Eddie House
* In 2010 Ray, Eddie House and Rasheed Wallace
* In 2011 Ray, Nate Robinson, Delonte West, Sasa Pavlovic,
* in 2012 Ray, Mickeal Pietrus, Sasha Pavlovic
Ray Allen was the #1 guy as a shooter who defenses needed to pay attention to. No defense would ever dream of leaving him open.
Second tier shooters were Eddie House, Nate Robinson, Rasheed, Pavlovic, Pietrus. These uys are no Ray Allen, but if they are streak shooters who can kill you from three if they get hot. You need to keep an eye on them.
This season Terry is like our Ray Allen equivalent. He's the guy that opposing defenses will always put a body on becuase he has an exceptional history as a three point shooter, and his reputation along draws defenders out.
Our second tier of shooters basically comes down to Barbosa - he's no pure shooter, but he's streaky and can kill you when he's hot (much like Eddie House). He's also only averaged 5 minutes per game over our last 8 games
Then we have Green, Bradley and Lee who are all third Tier shooters. Everyone knows these guys can hit the open three, but you aren't going to break a sweat about closing out on them because none of those guys are shooting over 32% for the season from three. In fact you almost WANT these guys to take a three, because they are far more dangerous from midrange (Lee, Bradley) or off the dribble (Green).
You need to consider that Terry has been top 15 or top 20 in the NBA in clutch scoring over the past several seasons. If we make the playoffs we are going to desperately need that scoring, and if we DON'T make the playoffs then it's all irrelevant anyway.
Personally I think all we need is to have a big body on the court at all times. As long as Collins and/or Fab Melo can come off the bench and back up KG for 20 minutes at the center spot, I think that's all we need in order to win games. So far it's worked well, and we've won by an average of 13 points over the two games since we've gone to that lineup. Lets give it some time and see how it plays out before we trade away our third best scorer and cripple our entire offense.
Ah yes, Lee is struggling with his shot... not only does he have the highest FG% after Rondo from our guard/wing positions, shooting a career high 48% from the field, he's shooting over 50% from the field in the last 17 games since December.
So no, Lee isn't struggling.
Lets say Boston have Lee on one corner, Terry on the other corner, and the opposing team wants to double Pierce.
Do you think the opponent would rather leave Terry open or Lee? I guarantee you they keep a body on Terry and leave Lee open if they had to make that choice.
Lee might be shooting 'better' over his recent stretch, but he is shooting 32% from three for the season. For the season Lee is shooting 35% on corner threes and 29% on above the break threes, neither figure is scary enough to scare opposing teams into overplaying him. His overall FG% is high because he's scoring very efectively off layups and from midrange, but his three point shot has been shaky to the point where every time he takes a three I cringe. To add to this I've watched pretty much every game this season, and almost every single three Lee's taken has been wide open. He very rarely shoots from three if he's contested and will generally pass the ball.
Terry is shooting 38% from three for the season. He is shooting 41% on corner threes and 36% on above the break threes. Both of those figures are solid. He has a well known reputation as a three point shooter and a back-breaker in the clutch and opposing teams will always respect his shot and keep a defender on him. This spreads the defense and gives guys like Rondo, Lee, Barbosa and Bradley opportunities to cut to the basket. Many of Terry's three-point shots have also been contested, yet he's still shooting a higher percentage than Lee for the season.
Terry also takes far more attempts than Lee. Terry is attempting 5.5 Three Pointers per 36 minutes, while Lee is attempting 2.3 attempts per 36 minutes. If Lee were taking twice as many attempts as Terry I'm guessing his percentage for the season would be more like 26% rather than 32%.
So despite the fact that Terry is taking twice as many attempts, gets more defensive attention and takes more contested shots, he's still shooting at a significantly higher percentage for the season than Lee is from the three point line.
The fact that Lee has shot as well from three as Jeff Green (both at 32%) this season should tell you all you need to know. Both of those are guys who are capable of hitting the three, but they aren't the guys you want taking that shot when the game is on the line.
I'm not talking about acquiring a back up center for Terry but a starter. I'm talking about moving Terry in an effort to get Milsap, Jefferson, Varejao, Gortat, Cousins, or Nene. We've been good lately but we've never had someone paired next to KG as good as anyone on that list.
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This team better not start playing with my heart....go one way or the other
Amen. They have a little momentum going now and let's hope they can keep it rolling. Keep things in perspective and take it one game at a time. It's a 2 game winning streak. If they go on a 2 or 3 game losing streak then some people will be calling for a roster blow-up. Be happy with the win, but it is just small part of the bigger picture. As I said, let's hope this can be the start of a good run for the team, something they can build off of.
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Where can one find a replay of the entire game (and not just this one, but any Cs game)?
On NBA league pass, where you have to sit through 4 of the same NBA cares ads every timeout.
Thanks! TP for the help.
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Just watched the replay (on League Pass...but if you wait long enough, e.g. about 5-6 hours, the ads are taken out, and it plays fairly quick....I live in Shanghai, so I watch my day time...).
Great come back win - surprised actually after watching the 1st half. The key? Of course Paul got hot, but Defense, with a capital D. Even the Hawks announcers acknowledged it...the Cs were swarming the offensive player. Plus, putting Bradley on Lou helped a lot (Rondo still lets his guy get past him too much). Very nice win, perhaps the best of the season....
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Does everyone realize that the Cs held the Hawks to 50 points over the last THREE quarters?
They gave up only 75 points to Indiana the previous game.
If you go back to the 4th quarter of the Memphis game, the Celtics are giving up an average of 19 points a quarter.
Even including the entire Memphis game, the Cs have given up an average of 83 points over the last 3 games.
I TOLD YOU AVERY BRADLEY WOULD CHANGE THIS TEAM
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Does everyone realize that the Cs held the Hawks to 50 points over the last THREE quarters?
They gave up only 75 points to Indiana the previous game.
If you go back to the 4th quarter of the Memphis game, the Celtics are giving up an average of 19 points a quarter.
Even including the entire Memphis game, the Cs have given up an average of 83 points over the last 3 games.
I TOLD YOU AVERY BRADLEY WOULD CHANGE THIS TEAM
(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3901/hawks2ndhalf.jpg)
The Hawks's 25% in the second half
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Does everyone realize that the Cs held the Hawks to 50 points over the last THREE quarters?
They gave up only 75 points to Indiana the previous game.
If you go back to the 4th quarter of the Memphis game, the Celtics are giving up an average of 19 points a quarter.
Even including the entire Memphis game, the Cs have given up an average of 83 points over the last 3 games.
I TOLD YOU AVERY BRADLEY WOULD CHANGE THIS TEAM
(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3901/hawks2ndhalf.jpg)
The Hawks's 25% in the second half
The scary thing for the hawks about that chart is those two 3's in the corner were a result of celtic deflections that just randomly bounced out to Lou Williams....Pure luck.
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Ah yes, Lee is struggling with his shot... not only does he have the highest FG% after Rondo from our guard/wing positions, shooting a career high 48% from the field, he's shooting over 50% from the field in the last 17 games since December.
So no, Lee isn't struggling.
Lets say Boston have Lee on one corner, Terry on the other corner, and the opposing team wants to double Pierce.
Do you think the opponent would rather leave Terry open or Lee? I guarantee you they keep a body on Terry and leave Lee open if they had to make that choice.
Lee might be shooting 'better' over his recent stretch, but he is shooting 32% from three for the season. For the season Lee is shooting 35% on corner threes and 29% on above the break threes, neither figure is scary enough to scare opposing teams into overplaying him. His overall FG% is high because he's scoring very efectively off layups and from midrange, but his three point shot has been shaky to the point where every time he takes a three I cringe. To add to this I've watched pretty much every game this season, and almost every single three Lee's taken has been wide open. He very rarely shoots from three if he's contested and will generally pass the ball.
Terry is shooting 38% from three for the season. He is shooting 41% on corner threes and 36% on above the break threes. Both of those figures are solid. He has a well known reputation as a three point shooter and a back-breaker in the clutch and opposing teams will always respect his shot and keep a defender on him. This spreads the defense and gives guys like Rondo, Lee, Barbosa and Bradley opportunities to cut to the basket. Many of Terry's three-point shots have also been contested, yet he's still shooting a higher percentage than Lee for the season.
Terry also takes far more attempts than Lee. Terry is attempting 5.5 Three Pointers per 36 minutes, while Lee is attempting 2.3 attempts per 36 minutes. If Lee were taking twice as many attempts as Terry I'm guessing his percentage for the season would be more like 26% rather than 32%.
So despite the fact that Terry is taking twice as many attempts, gets more defensive attention and takes more contested shots, he's still shooting at a significantly higher percentage for the season than Lee is from the three point line.
The fact that Lee has shot as well from three as Jeff Green (both at 32%) this season should tell you all you need to know. Both of those are guys who are capable of hitting the three, but they aren't the guys you want taking that shot when the game is on the line.
If Lee is one corner, and Terry in the other, I couldn't care less who the defense leaves open.
Terry has taken a lot, and I mean a lot, of wide open 3s and he has missed plenty of them too.
Lee struggled with his shot very very badly early in the season which holds his overall season percentage down.
But you said he IS struggling, and that's simply completely false any way you look at it. He IS playing well. He IS shooting the ball well. He HAD struggled with his shot throughout the early portion of the season, but no more.
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Lee has been playing well for us, but Terry is still a guy I would want in clutch situations where we need offense...and thats why I want him on the team...like ray was for us in the past, Terry has the ability to crush a team with a clutch 3 or shot
and, I hope people finally can appreciate how important avery bradley is to this team...less dribble penetration, less bigs having to step up....the teams defense has been markedly better since he returned...and once his shot starts to fall, watch out!
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Now let's keep it going. Discuss.
who hacked Vinnie's account? We have an impostor posting something positive about the C's ;)
loved the second half. combination of much tougher D and Hawks being a 'dumb' team that doesn't know enough to jack up bad shots when they're in a downward slide.
As I have said many times, I don't disappear when this team wins. The Celtics have been my favorite team since Johnny Most. Go, Celts.
I'm a vinnie fan on this board. Pessimistic sometimes, but I know you're always giving your real feelings and just saying it how you feel. Nothing wrong with that. And more evidence here of you doing the same.
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Does everyone realize that the Cs held the Hawks to 50 points over the last THREE quarters?
They gave up only 75 points to Indiana the previous game.
If you go back to the 4th quarter of the Memphis game, the Celtics are giving up an average of 19 points a quarter.
Even including the entire Memphis game, the Cs have given up an average of 83 points over the last 3 games.
I TOLD YOU AVERY BRADLEY WOULD CHANGE THIS TEAM
(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3901/hawks2ndhalf.jpg)
The Hawks's 25% in the second half
Some of their 3rd quarter threes were wide open, but they just missed it.
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crank up that trade value boys... 10 days till the shoppin begins.
Not if we keep playing like these past two games.
I think a trade is still coming and hope that Green is going
Honestly I would rather move Terry.
I would like to see both go.