Author Topic: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center  (Read 16842 times)

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Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #120 on: June 20, 2019, 09:26:43 AM »

Offline apc

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This is about to become a very exciting off season!

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #121 on: June 20, 2019, 10:18:46 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Sounds like Baynes is going to be traded

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1141688710666346498?s=21
can't access twitter from work.  can someone provide the details?

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #122 on: June 20, 2019, 10:19:33 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Sounds like Baynes is going to be traded

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1141688710666346498?s=21
can't access twitter from work.  can someone provide the details?
Here's the quote:

Quote
Boston has offered center Aron Baynes -- $5.4M expiring contract -- into salary cap space elsewhere, league sources tell ESPN. Without Kyrie Irving and Al Horford on the books, moving Baynes without taking back salary could get the Celtics to $23M in space.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #123 on: June 20, 2019, 10:20:16 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Sounds like Baynes is going to be traded

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1141688710666346498?s=21
can't access twitter from work.  can someone provide the details?
Here's the quote:

Quote
Boston has offered center Aron Baynes -- $5.4M expiring contract -- into salary cap space elsewhere, league sources tell ESPN. Without Kyrie Irving and Al Horford on the books, moving Baynes without taking back salary could get the Celtics to $23M in space.
TP for the info.  thx

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #124 on: June 20, 2019, 10:23:31 AM »

Offline mef730

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I heard Sullinger's still available.

Mike

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #125 on: June 20, 2019, 10:27:08 AM »

Offline Kuberski33

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Sounds like Baynes is going to be traded

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1141688710666346498?s=21

Looks like Brad is going really, really small ball.
We may finally get a chance to find out whether Yabusele can actually play or not

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #126 on: June 20, 2019, 10:27:44 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Sounds like Baynes is going to be traded

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1141688710666346498?s=21

Looks like Brad is going really, really small ball.
We may finally get a chance to find out whether Yabusele can actually play or not

I think most of us here have already found that out.

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #127 on: June 20, 2019, 10:31:09 AM »

Online celticinorlando

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Sounds like Baynes is going to be traded

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1141688710666346498?s=21

Looks like Brad is going really, really small ball.
We may finally get a chance to find out whether Yabusele can actually play or not

Hopefully he will not be on the team next year.

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #128 on: June 20, 2019, 10:32:39 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Sounds like Baynes is going to be traded

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1141688710666346498?s=21

Looks like Brad is going really, really small ball.
We may finally get a chance to find out whether Yabusele can actually play or not
God forbid
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #129 on: June 20, 2019, 10:34:37 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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why does AH and Kyrie leaving only net $23 million in cap space? Didnt they both earn more?

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #130 on: June 20, 2019, 10:36:59 AM »

Offline Kuberski33

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Sounds like Baynes is going to be traded

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1141688710666346498?s=21

Looks like Brad is going really, really small ball.
We may finally get a chance to find out whether Yabusele can actually play or not

I think most of us here have already found that out.
A solid point - one I agree with btw - but I'd also ask why Danny bothered to pick up his option?

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #131 on: June 20, 2019, 10:37:25 AM »

Offline gouki88

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why does AH and Kyrie leaving only net $23 million in cap space? Didnt they both earn more?
I think it's because we were already over the cap, if I'm not wrong
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #132 on: June 20, 2019, 10:37:51 AM »

Offline Jiri Welsch

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why does AH and Kyrie leaving only net $23 million in cap space? Didnt they both earn more?

There are a few reasons:
(1) Because we were over the cap last year by about $25 million, and with those two lost about $48 million in salary.
(2) Even though we have subtracted about $50 million from the payroll, the Celtics still have cap holds for Mook and Rozier that take cap space.
(3) Any time there are fewer than 12 men on your roster, there is still an allotted amount of cap space taken for what essentially becomes an imaginary player.

Sorry for the extreme layman's terms
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 10:44:16 AM by Jiri Welsch »

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #133 on: June 20, 2019, 10:38:57 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Randle or Vucevic. Would love either. What do we think they'd realistically command in FA?

The problem with Randle is defense. Rumor has it that word is foreign to him and not sure how lack of effort on one side of the ball would fit with Stevens..

Not sure why I would actually want Cousins now as before I would have avoided him but Cousins would be a big swing for the stars kind of move. I really believe it could possibly work out for us if he did not have his heart set on the west coast.He is a big alpha though and safe to say if healthy he would not roll over at home in the playoffs. What kind of deal  will he get as free agent? I wonder.

I am 100% on board with taking a run at Cousins.

Even in the Raptors series, when he was fresh off returning from an injury, he still showed flashes of dominance in a couple of those games.

When Cousins is healthy he is a monster - almost certainly a top 3 big man in the game.  Talent wise, he's right up there with AD when healthy and motivated.

It doesn't sound like many teams are going to be willing to take a gamble, and even last year he got almost no interest.  If Boston throw him an offer of say, $20M/year over 2 years, that might be far beyond what any other team is willing to offer.  On top of that, with Kyrie and Horford gone you can now offer Cousins the added temptation of being able to take his place as the face of one of the game's most storied franchises.  You'd have to think that opportunity would be tempting.

Best case, he and Hayward play like All-Stars and the Celtics are back in the "contender" argument.

Worst case Hayward and Cousins both expire in 2 years time, and the Celtics get $50M in cap space freed up to go after some stars. 

Even at 75% of his ability, Cousins can still defend the paint, he is still one of the best passing bigs in the NBA, and he can still stretch the floor out to the three point line - which is most of what Al brought while he was here.  Throw in his elite rebounding and low post presence (two things we haven't had since KG) and he could offer a lot to this team even if he never gets back to 100%.   

Bonus: 
If Hayward and Cousins are playing well after a couple of months and the Celtics are holding a top 3 seed, there's the potential to take a next step by taking a swing at a Bradley Beal trade at the deadline - a healthy Hayward and Cousins combined with Bradley Beal should be enough for Boston to make a serious run at a championship as soon as this coming season. 

Throw

Cousins is the biggest baby in the NBA. If we thought Kyrie was a problem in the locker room or not meshing well with Brad, imagine the chaos that a clown like Cousins would cause.

Jaylen and Jayson have already put up with last years debacle of anti[chemistry. Another year or two of Cousins and they'll be gone the second they hit free agency.

I didn't see any indication of Cousins creating locker room issues last season in Golden State, or the prior seasons in new Orleans.

All the worst of his locker room dramas seemed to have occurred in Sacramento, a franchise that was infamously toxic at that time   

Cousins is also a couple of years older now, and has spent a year in Golden State, playing for a winning team, within the culture of a championship locker room.   And he's spent two seasons being humbled by injuries and limited production.

If there is EVER a turning point for Cousins in terms of attitude, that time is going to be now.  His capabilities on a basketball court make him worth the risk.

Also Kyrie and Cousins are two very different problems. 

Kyrie's issue is ego / selfishness. He wants to be the center of attention, the #1 guy, wants everybody to bend to his will and do things the way HE wants them.  I've never seen an indication of Cousins having any of those problems.  DMC's issue's have always been lack of maturity and lack of emotional self control - much similar to Marcus Smart, who despite his issues has been very successful in Boston.
I think Cousins' issues come when there are no strong locker-room presences around and/or there's no player that is provably more talented than him.

That's what this current Boston team is, unlike New Orleans (Davis) and Golden State (Curry, Durant, and strong leadership).

I can understand the argument you're making, but then I would also argue that the Boston locker room was pretty cheerful and together before Kyrie Irving came along.  Most of the guys on the team seem pretty easy going, you have a couple of emotional leaders in Marcus Smart and Marcus Morris (if he returns), and you all have Brad Stevens - who most people seem to love playing for.  So the locker room might not be 2018 Golden State Warriors, but it's not 2010 Sacramento Kings either.

Secondly, the argument that AD is more talented then Cousins is, I think, quite debatable. 

Over a four year stretch (prior to taking on a reduced role in GS) Cousins averaged 25.9 PPG, 11.9 RPG, 4.1 APG, 1.5 SPG and 1.5 BPG - those are right up there with AD numbers.  AD is more athletic, has better ball handling skills and is a better defender.  However Cousins is stronger, a significantly better passer, and is arguably a more dominant post player.   

I think you can make a pretty strong argument in both directions, so when it comes to sheer basketball talent I would argue AD and DMC are pretty much on par. 

Where AD has always had the edge has been his mentality - being somewhat "modest" and easy going by superstar standards.  To some that has been a criticism as well, because there are still many who question whether he has the "kill or be killed" mentality to be the alpha dog on a championship team.

Now we can can sit here and make counter arguments based on hypothetical scenarios Cousins hasn't been in - but then you are just going off pure speculation.  I think it's more constructive to look at scenarios he has been in, and so far he has seemingly fared just fine in 2 out of the 3 teams he played for.  I'd argue the odds lean in Boston's favor.

Either way the important thing is that there clearly *is* evidence that Cousins is capable of behaving in a somewhat respectable manner if put in the right situation, and if I'm Danny Ainge that's really all I need to convince me to take a gamble on a guy who may well be a top 10 NBA talent.

Raptors took a gamble on Kawhi last year after there were serious question marks about his health, his attitude, his loyalty, his mentality.  Many people were critical of him 'quitting' on the Spurs and questioned his mental strength.  He rewarded them with a championship. 

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but the point here is that sometimes you just need to take a chance.  There aren't any real "slam dunk" options available to Danny right now as far as I can see. 

You can either:
1. Spend the next 2 years hovering in mediocrity (by doing something like the Steven Adams deal) in the hope of signing a big FA in year 3
2. Go young, retool with young guys, potentially spend the next 5 years being the post-Dwight Orlando Magic
3. Take a gamble on a guy who has some attitude concerns, but also has enough basketball talent to potentially become the next Kevin Garnett

If he demands a 3 or 4 year deal the then risk is too high. 

But if you can get him on a 2 year deal at say $20M a year (which if anything is a bit less then Steven Adams is currently owed) then the risk is really no higher then the Steven Adams scenario - if it doesn't work out then he comes off the books and you move on.  The only difference is that in that in the best case scenario Cousins could be a game changer, and Steven Adams won't be.
Cousins will never again be that player he was during that 4 year stretch

Achilles injuries are devastating

I tend to agree.  He certainly hasn't looked like his previous self ever since he came back.  He still has good instincts and has a knack for the ball, but his athleticism took a major hit.  There is no way that Cousins and Davis are 'on par' at this point.  Injuries have dropped DC's value.

He averaged 16.3 Points, 8.2 Rebounds, 3.6 Assists, 1.3 Steals and 1.5 Blocks for the Warriors last season in only 25.7 MPG. 

If you adjust that to Per-32 minutes (Cousins' career average) that adjusts to 20.2 Points, 10.2 Rebounds, 4.5 Assists, 1.6 Steals and 1.8 Blocks - that production is all right up there with what he averaged over his more dominant career stretch aside from the scoring - which is totally expected when you are sharing the ball with Steph Curry, Klay Thompson and Kevin Durant. 

His FG% of 48% was actually the second highest of his career.

His Real Plus Minus of +2.68 (39th out of 514 NBA players, top 8% in the NBA) also remained pretty solid.  It wasn't nearly as elite as his RPM ranking from prior years, I'll give you that.  But It clearly indicates that the team was better when he was on the court - and that says a lot when you consider the team he was playing on. 

By comparison Steven Adams was only a +1.86 RPM for his team, suggesting that even in his post-injury state Cousins impacted his team more then a healthy Adams did his. 

And yes, I do acknowledge that RPM is not the be-all-end-all of stats.  Still, when you combine that number with Cousins' overall per minute production with the Warriors, all signs do seem to indicate that DMC was still producing at an All-Star level even after returning from (what is arguably) the most severe injury in basketball. 

Any statistical decline (RPM and scoring output) is fairly easily justified by reduced minutes and reduced role. 

Now he *did* struggle immensely after returning from the second injury in the playoffs, but you can hardly expect any different given he was only a couple of weeks back from injury. 

It's certainly possible that he will never be the dominant player he once was, not denying that.  That's part of the risk you take. But if there is any chance that he could go back to being that player (or hell, even 85% of that player) for the next 3-5 years then the risk has paid off tenfold.

Consider:
1. Cousins was dealing with injury, minute restrictions and a limited role, yet still put up better stats (16.3/8.2/3.6) then Adams did (13.9/9.5/1.6)
2. Cousins was dealing with injury, minute restrictions and a limited role yet stats indicate he still had a bigger impact (+2.68) then Adams did (+1.86)
3. Cousins has already proven to the world that he has the capability, when healthy, to be a perennial All-Star (4 straight) and a top 5 big
4. Cousins would be making less money then Adams over the exact same contract length

I'm finding it VERY difficult to think of reasons why that Cousins gamble wouldn't be worth making over the alternative Adams move. The increase in risk worst-case seems minimal (even as a shadow of his prime self, Cousins is still significantly better then Adams, and you can dump him in 2 years) while the upside is exponentially higher.

As an added bonus, Cousins' seems to have a history of being a loyal guy - he stuck around Sacramento through multiple contracts, despite the toxic environment. If you do struck luck and he does return to superstar form, there's a high probability that he'd appreciate being given the chance and would re-sign in Boston.  Obviously that's pure speculation on my part, but history seems to suggest it.

I do totally understand why people have reservations about Cousins - but it's very, very rare that you get an opportunity to pick up a young big man with superstar level talent, for a way less than max contract money, without having to give up any existing assets.

It's even rarer that an opportunity like this comes along at the very moment when you just lost your two biggest stars for nothing, your future is looking bleak, and you are pretty much praying for a miracle. 

The miracle might be sitting right there on your doorstep if you are just willing to have a little faith.

Cousins just doesn’t look the same after the injury.  He has no lift, he was completely exploited on def by Fred Van Fleet and co in the pick and roll they ran at him like 1,000,000 times.  He is also a bit of loose cannon.  After all we through drama wise this year, I don’t see enough upside to sign him.  Sorry
Unfair to evaluate him on the finals

He was still coming back from the Achilles and then hurt his leg and missed a month. So when he got torched in pick and roll during the finals he was out of shape due to a month off and still battling a leg injury. I expect he’d be much quicker next season.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Per Shams...C's going hard after a center
« Reply #134 on: June 20, 2019, 10:40:21 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Sounds like Baynes is going to be traded

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1141688710666346498?s=21

Looks like Brad is going really, really small ball.
We may finally get a chance to find out whether Yabusele can actually play or not

I think most of us here have already found that out.
A solid point - one I agree with btw - but I'd also ask why Danny bothered to pick up his option?

Mostly I have no idea and was against it at the time.  That said, his option had to be picked up last October, following only one season in the NBA, and perhaps he had shown enough in practices for the team to be willing to give him another year.