It feels like people are changing their minds about Kyrie

[td450]

Think about what the Celtics really need from Kyrie, instead of how good he is.

To win a championship with him:

He needs to be someone who can orchestrate a bunch of very good players to be great,

or:

He needs to be the 1A compliment to an MVP level player. The best opportunity for that is to get Anthony Davis and to keep him.


So far, he is not showing the ability to orchestrate a bunch of very good players to be great. That is a very very difficult thing to do if you aren't a clear MVP candidate, and let's face it, he's a next tier level player.

For the C's to get Davis and keep him, Kyrie will need to sign and then make the relationship sufficiently successful and appealing for Davis to perform at MVP level and want to stay. Unlike LeBron, Davis won't control the ball and dominate the organization too. Kyrie will be critical to making that work.

Does figuring out how to make a player that is better than him happy sound like the sort of thing Kyrie will be successful at?

If you don't think he can do either of those two things, it isn't necessarily a knock on him as a person. Its a difficult position to put him in. But its also what the team is after, and if he isn't up to it, he's not someone to give $200M to.

[bopna]

League has always been built for teams that have top of their draft class. Kyrie is one of those special breeds that will get better as he enters his prime.. Why on earth would people want to give up on him.

Every player superstar or  all star has flaws and you would have to live with bad with the good or vice versa.
You have an opportunity to sign a player like Kyrie long term you do it or therwise other teams will.

Whether we get AD or not is beside the point but you are presented with a chance to have Kyrie long term you jump on it no matter the consequences... Heck if things do not pan out well,  there is always the trade option when it's really not working out and time to blow it up... But you cannot give up easily on a player who hasn't even entered his prime yet.. Remember that Curry won his first ring at about the same age as Kyrie is now.

[PhoSita]

I've been a Kyrie defender most of this year, but as time goes on and we hear more about the state of the Celtics locker room, in light of how he's handled himself this year, I'm not convinced it is going to be such a great thing if he sticks around long term.


I don't think the issue is that his play style isn't conducive to winning or anything like that.  My feeling all along has been that if you have Kyrie on your team, what you want is a strong infrastructure in place, established leadership in a respected coach and veterans.  That way you can basically just keep your team the way you want it, run your system on offense and defense, and just let Kyrie do his smooth assassin thing.

What you don't want is for Kyrie to be the centerpiece of your franchise on and off the court in the sense of setting the culture, getting all the media attention, etc.

I believed that the Celtics had the pieces in place to handle Kyrie the way he needs to be handled, to get the most out of the way he plays without having to rely on him for culture or leadership or allow him to take over the media focus.


After the way things have gone this year, I'm not so sure about that anymore.

[KGs Knee]

I've been a Kyrie defender most of this year, but as time goes on and we hear more about the state of the Celtics locker room, in light of how he's handled himself this year, I'm not convinced it is going to be such a great thing if he sticks around long term.


I don't think the issue is that his play style isn't conducive to winning or anything like that.  My feeling all along has been that if you have Kyrie on your team, what you want is a strong infrastructure in place, established leadership in a respected coach and veterans.  That way you can basically just keep your team the way you want it, run your system on offense and defense, and just let Kyrie do his smooth assassin thing.

What you don't want is for Kyrie to be the centerpiece of your franchise on and off the court in the sense of setting the culture, getting all the media attention, etc.

I believed that the Celtics had the pieces in place to handle Kyrie the way he needs to be handled, to get the most out of the way he plays without having to rely on him for culture or leadership or allow him to take over the media focus.


After the way things have gone this year, I'm not so sure about that anymore.

Let's say all of this is true about Kyrie, in regards to his 'leadership', or lack thereof.

What does that say about Stevens or Horford, or to a lesser degree, Smart?  Aren't those three supposed to the leaders setting the 'culture'?  Or are the young players, and Morris, simply tuning them out?

[moiso]

League has always been built for teams that have top of their draft class. Kyrie is one of those special breeds that will get better as he enters his prime.. Why on earth would people want to give up on him.

Every player superstar or  all star has flaws and you would have to live with bad with the good or vice versa.
You have an opportunity to sign a player like Kyrie long term you do it or therwise other teams will.

Whether we get AD or not is beside the point but you are presented with a chance to have Kyrie long term you jump on it no matter the consequences... Heck if things do not pan out well,  there is always the trade option when it's really not working out and time to blow it up... But you cannot give up easily on a player who hasn't even entered his prime yet.. Remember that Curry won his first ring at about the same age as Kyrie is now.

I'm all for trying to sign Irving so we don't lose him for nothing.  If the team is still disgruntled next season I'd start looking to trade him.  You are right, Irving is too good not to sign.  But I have a feeling that he will never be happy and the team would eventually  look to move on from him.

[ederson]

But when the other players know he's not playing, they play better.  More movement.  More passing.  Better defense.  More enthusiasm

This seems to be true. I don't have any numbers but I think the OP is right.

But let's think about this for a min. Isn't this reflecting very bad to the other players? I don't want players who play whenever they feel like it.

I'd keep KI and trade everyone else.

[bopna]

League has always been built for teams that have top of their draft class. Kyrie is one of those special breeds that will get better as he enters his prime.. Why on earth would people want to give up on him.

Every player superstar or  all star has flaws and you would have to live with bad with the good or vice versa.
You have an opportunity to sign a player like Kyrie long term you do it or therwise other teams will.

Whether we get AD or not is beside the point but you are presented with a chance to have Kyrie long term you jump on it no matter the consequences... Heck if things do not pan out well,  there is always the trade option when it's really not working out and time to blow it up... But you cannot give up easily on a player who hasn't even entered his prime yet.. Remember that Curry won his first ring at about the same age as Kyrie is now.

I'm all for trying to sign Irving so we don't lose him for nothing. If the team is still disgruntled next season I'd start looking to trade him.  You are right, Irving is too good not to sign. But I have a feeling that he will never be happy and the team would eventually  look to move on from him.

[/b]

How do we know that when those seasons haven't even been played out yet. Again I get it that Kyrie has flaws of being a leader etc... but the team dynamics and make up will be drastically different from the current squad specially if Danny decide to go all in for AD. 

Just look at what we are all saying about OKC before PG arrived, It was a trainwreck and things were looking awful but when they traded for PG which was a win-win by the way for both teams as Oladipo prospered as well in Indiana, then things started to look good until to the shock of everyone, PG decided to stay with Westbrick and now they have the team that can challenge the Warriors, and if KD leaves which is looking more and more likely, I believe OKC takes over from GS as the West team to beat. AD can be that to us.

The future is still not set in stone so I still think our future is good whether Kyrie is here or not, but it would be better if he stays.

[Atzar]

We're a better team with the best version of Kyrie.  I don't want him gone.  I want him to stay here and learn how to be a leader.  I want him to learn to get the best out of his teammates. 

I feel like he's making an earnest effort to improve, but it obviously hasn't been a smooth journey.  The media circus around the trade deadline and free agency has been bad for the whole team.  And he's not very good at dealing with the media.  He hasn't learned the art of saying nothing.  So he's brought plenty of this on himself.  But through it all, I've never felt like his heart is in the wrong place. 

And I feel like it's a big mistake to treat a 26-year-old as if he's a finished product.  Pierce wasn't much of a leader at his age, either.  But he grew up, he got the right people around him, and now he's an NBA champion and eventual HOFer. 

[KGBirdBias]

I think Kyrie has been hurt by looking at how Bron leads. He's brought that style to the Celtics and it's not a good way with young players.

KG led by being prepared mentally for every opponent. He viewed the opponent as a thief trying to take some from him. KG brought energy and he uplifted you when you didn't have it.

Bron is about what will make him look good and not embarrass him. He won't give you tools to bring you along with him. Whatever he possesses he will share with you and you have to accept it. It may not be what you need...this is what Kyrie doesn't understand.

Kyrie is more Kobe. I will score and shoot a lot and lead in that way.

[tazzmaniac]

But when the other players know he's not playing, they play better.  More movement.  More passing.  Better defense.  More enthusiasm

This seems to be true. I don't have any numbers but I think the OP is right.

But let's think about this for a min. Isn't this reflecting very bad to the other players? I don't want players who play whenever they feel like it.

I'd keep KI and trade everyone else.

Kyrie has the best overall team +/- at +6.0 on-court and +0.5 off-court.  Tatum is 2nd at +5.2 on-court and +0.2 off-court.  After that there is a big drop off. 

With Kyrie on-court, the team has a 112.9 offensive rating and 105.0 defense rating.  When he is off-court, the offensive rating plummets to 103.9 while the defensive rating improves a bit to 103.1. 

So those numbers clearly seem to refute the notion that the team plays better without Irving. 

[gouki88]

But when the other players know he's not playing, they play better.  More movement.  More passing.  Better defense.  More enthusiasm

This seems to be true. I don't have any numbers but I think the OP is right.

But let's think about this for a min. Isn't this reflecting very bad to the other players? I don't want players who play whenever they feel like it.

I'd keep KI and trade everyone else.

Kyrie has the best overall team +/- at +6.0 on-court and +0.5 off-court.  Tatum is 2nd at +5.2 on-court and +0.2 off-court.  After that there is a big drop off. 

With Kyrie on-court, the team has a 112.9 offensive rating and 105.0 defense rating.  When he is off-court, the offensive rating plummets to 103.9 while the defensive rating improves a bit to 103.1. 

So those numbers clearly seem to refute the notion that the team plays better without Irving.

Watch these numbers get routinely ignored

[tazzmaniac]

But when the other players know he's not playing, they play better.  More movement.  More passing.  Better defense.  More enthusiasm

This seems to be true. I don't have any numbers but I think the OP is right.

But let's think about this for a min. Isn't this reflecting very bad to the other players? I don't want players who play whenever they feel like it.

I'd keep KI and trade everyone else.

Kyrie has the best overall team +/- at +6.0 on-court and +0.5 off-court.  Tatum is 2nd at +5.2 on-court and +0.2 off-court.  After that there is a big drop off. 

With Kyrie on-court, the team has a 112.9 offensive rating and 105.0 defense rating.  When he is off-court, the offensive rating plummets to 103.9 while the defensive rating improves a bit to 103.1. 

So those numbers clearly seem to refute the notion that the team plays better without Irving.

Watch these numbers get routinely ignored

I expect so.  People have their story they want to push.  I'm not even a Kyrie fan and I have doubts he can be the #1 star on a championship caliber team.  However we're clearly better with Kyrie and he's our main chip in getting AD to stay if we trade for him.  If in a couple years things aren't working out, Danny ought to be able to trade Kyrie for good value. 

[LarBrd33]

Yes, the hate propaganda campaign is working.  Real shame.  Lot of soft fans in this community.

Not that surprising. Boston has some of the most bandwagon fans around. Not that surprising considering all the hubbub about the Cs in the offseason.

Irving leaving the Cs would be a massive gut punch to the franchise and basically end any sort of near future title contention for this team barring something unforeseen. To get to where they want to get, they need players of Kyrie's caliber. Big issue this year imo is too many mouths to feed for young guys trying to get paid and Hayward’s slow recovery to his normal self.

Baby soft fans buying into media brainwashing.

Kyrie is trying to carry a team of role players and they want to blame him. Ridiculous.

[MikeB12]

Patrick be careful...I've been slammed several times for my comments about Kyrie...some on this board think that only their opinions are ok and anyone else's are just wrong.   

Whether those posters like it or not, a Celtics fan on this forum can post critical comments about Kyrie after every game if they want to - this is a Celtics fan forum and if people don't like the post title, then don't click on it.

MikeB

[gouki88]

Patrick be careful...I've been slammed several times for my comments about Kyrie...some on this board think that only their opinions are ok and anyone else's are just wrong.   

Whether those posters like it or not, a Celtics fan on this forum can post critical comments about Kyrie after every game if they want to - this is a Celtics fan forum and if people don't like the post title, then don't click on it.

MikeB

There's literally nothing wrong with thinking someone else's opinion is wrong.

Maybe people are complaining because there are probably over 2 dozen singular threads complaining about Kyrie. If there was just one thread that got revisited every so often by the anti-Kyrie crowd I don't think many would care.

Hell, there are even two anti-Kyrie threads in the latest discussion box right now