Is it really Doc's fault?

[Who]

I just don't think it all comes down to execution. Nobody is open, so there's nobody to pass to.

That's execution to me

The number of times I saw Ray Allen come off a screen in 3 feet of daylight against Atlanta was simply ridiculous. It was every single screen he went through when Josh Childress defended him. 80% of the time nobody on the Celtics noticed.

It's execution when Rondo dribbles the ball up, then doesn't make the quick pass to start the offense. Instead he holds onto it for the first 8-10 seconds of the offense which is happening far too often.

It's execution when KG has 13 points mainly out of the low post in the first quarter and then they go away from him like him Game One. Or in game four when he had 13 at halftime but they didn't keep going to him.

It's execution when Paul Pierce is killing every Hawk wing off the midpost and then Rondo stops going to him

It's execution when the team stops driving aggressively into the paint against away from home.

A lot of the offensive problems are starting from Rondo. He's the point guard. He's the floor general. He isn't doing a good job. He's repeatedly missing or leaving out Ray Allen, no suprise since it's happend most of the season. He isn't recognizing mismatches. He isn't keeping the ball moving like he has before. He isn't getting the Celtics best scorers the ball in the right spots at the right time (like KG in the post). A lot of the problems are starting from Rondo.

Kevin Garnett would be next on the list because he isn't making enough of the post opportunties he's actually getting. He's passing out of the post too often and it's causing problems with Pierce being a non-factor. He also isn't setting enough screens in the halfcourt for my liking.

It's all execution. The players aren't doing what they did in the regular season, they aren't making that extra pass, they aren't driving to the rim, they aren't forcing the break when the opportunity is there. They're not getting easy buckets as a result.

We don't have plays designed to get our best players open.

Yep, lots of sets, not enough set plays. They're struggling right now offensively and the lack of set plays is making it worse. More set plays would

[wdleehi]

It's about execution. Not totally about execution but close to total, the vast majority of the Celtics problems are down to their poor execution.

No, I do not think Mike Brown is out-coaching Doc Rivers and I do not think Mike Woodson out-coached Doc Rivers. That's not high praise either, I just don't think it's happened.

Perkins is sitting on the bench while the team's getting outrebounded.  That's not execution.  Rondo being in the game on nights when he's not hitting his jumper means that the offense is playing 4 on 5 and Cleveland can ignore Rondo completely.  That's not execution.

Brown is killing Rivers.  He's got a far less talented team, and he's 2-2.

Celtics need Rondo (along with Perkins) on the floor.  He is the only PG that can set the faster pace the Celtics would have the advantage with.

The problem is how they are using Rondo once in the half court.  Having him set up outside on the weakside and wait.  How is that a good use for him.  Either keep him on the strong side or use him cutting through the lane or running the baseline (when the ball is not in his hand). 

[teddykgb]

well their offense often has him zag cut through the lane off the post, KG has handed off/dumped to him a few times on that play.  the problem is that play carries through, and if he doesn't get the ball his next cut is to go to the weak side corner until the ball is swung, and right now the ball isn't swung, and when it is, it is being swung (properly) to him in that open position, since they're doubling off of his name to prevent our interior game. 

[nickagneta]

I guess all us Doc supporters will just have to realize that:

- when players miss shots, it's Doc's fault.
- when players miss free throws, it's Doc's fault.
- when players turn the ball over, it's Doc's fault.
- when players don't make the extra pass, it's Doc's fault.
- when players don't properly rotate in the defense, it's Doc's fault.
- when players start the game with no energy or intensity, it's Doc's fault.
- when players don't listen to the coach, it's Doc's fault.
- when the offense is sluggish, it's Doc's fault.
- when the defense breaks down, it's Doc's fault.
- when the refs officiate poorly, it's Doc's fault.
- when the other team is just outplaying the Celtics, it's Doc's fault.
- when players come off the bench cold, it's Doc's fault.
- when players get injured it's Doc's fault.
- when a young player doesn't develop, it's Doc's fault.
- when an opposing player just goes off, it's Doc's fault.
- when the Celtics lose, it's Doc's fault.

and

- when the offense works well it's because of the players.
- when the defense shuts down an opponent it's because of the players.
- when the defensive game plan works it's because of Tom Thibodeau.
- when the team wins it's because of everybody except Doc.

Why can't we Doc supporters understand this?

I not sure but it's probably Doc's fault.

Other things that are probably true:

- when it rains out, it's Doc's fault.
- when our better half gets angry with us, it's Doc's fault.
- when we get sick, it's Doc's fault.
- when there is an earthquake, it's Doc's fault.
- when I run out of beer, it's Doc's fault.
- when we don't get that pay raise, it's Doc's fault.
- when gas prices go through the roof, it's Doc's fault.
- when terrorists attack, it's Doc's fault.
- when endless lists just don't stop................

All together now!!!!!!!!!!

IT'S DOC'S FAULT!!!!!

[wdleehi]

well their offense often has him zag cut through the lane off the post, KG has handed off/dumped to him a few times on that play.  the problem is that play carries through, and if he doesn't get the ball his next cut is to go to the weak side corner until the ball is swung, and right now the ball isn't swung, and when it is, it is being swung (properly) to him in that open position, since they're doubling off of his name to prevent our interior game. 

If that is the case, he should run back through the baseline.  Either he gets opened inside or the defense is going to react.

[teddykgb]

He can't run back toward the ball on the baseline, he'd be bringing another defender to the strong side, ruining the spacing, and not be in a position where he could score the ball..it'd only be worse, not better.

The only real solution is to either not run the play (which is really our only set with KG in the post), or to not swing it into the corner.  So when KG dumps out of the double team, right now he dumps to the top of the wing, who then swings to the corner.  That player on the wing has to either re-reverse the ball (very hard to do) or drive it himself, with Rondo swinging around into the vacated space.  These aren't really movements in the celtics ball movement scheme, though, they thrive on player movement without the ball.

[wdleehi]

He can't run back toward the ball on the baseline, he'd be bringing another defender to the strong side, ruining the spacing, and not be in a position where he could score the ball..it'd only be worse, not better.

The only real solution is to either not run the play (which is really our only set with KG in the post), or to not swing it into the corner.  So when KG dumps out of the double team, right now he dumps to the top of the wing, who then swings to the corner.  That player on the wing has to either re-reverse the ball (very hard to do) or drive it himself, with Rondo swinging around into the vacated space.  These aren't really movements in the celtics ball movement scheme, though, they thrive on player movement without the ball.

That's the point.  There is no defender on him at that point.  He is either going to pull another defender away from KG, the other big man or be open. 

[Who]

It's about execution. Not totally about execution but close to total, the vast majority of the Celtics problems are down to their poor execution.

No, I do not think Mike Brown is out-coaching Doc Rivers and I do not think Mike Woodson out-coached Doc Rivers. That's not high praise either, I just don't think it's happened.

Perkins is sitting on the bench while the team's getting outrebounded.  That's not execution.  Rondo being in the game on nights when he's not hitting his jumper means that the offense is playing 4 on 5 and Cleveland can ignore Rondo completely.  That's not execution.

Brown is killing Rivers.  He's got a far less talented team, and he's 2-2.

Outrebounded? Really?

C'mon .... The Cavs are the best rebounding team in the league on the season and slaughtered the Wizards in the first round on the backboards.

Outrebounding? Really?

They're not even beating us on the backboards. We've won two games on the backboards, they've won two games on the backboards. All four games were closely contested on the backboards with the advantage normally going to the team who forced the most misses. Overall we're even with them on the backboards through four games.

Outrebounding ..... come on.
When I talked about execution I was talking specifically to the Celtics offensive struggles.

The Celtics struggles have been self inflicted not because of Mike Brown. The overwhelming majority of those reasons have been because of the players and not the coaching staff. Those two reasons are why I don't think Mike Brown is outcoaching the Celtics despite the series being tied 2-2 with a weaker team.

[teddykgb]

I don't see it, let me try to diagram it, because if he runs on the baseline he's NOT in a position to score and now you've got more defenders on the strong side -- they can cover him easier and still bring the double team, you're just crowding the floor at this point

[Scintan]

It's about execution. Not totally about execution but close to total, the vast majority of the Celtics problems are down to their poor execution.

No, I do not think Mike Brown is out-coaching Doc Rivers and I do not think Mike Woodson out-coached Doc Rivers. That's not high praise either, I just don't think it's happened.

Perkins is sitting on the bench while the team's getting outrebounded.  That's not execution.  Rondo being in the game on nights when he's not hitting his jumper means that the offense is playing 4 on 5 and Cleveland can ignore Rondo completely.  That's not execution.

Brown is killing Rivers.  He's got a far less talented team, and he's 2-2.

Celtics need Rondo (along with Perkins) on the floor.  He is the only PG that can set the faster pace the Celtics would have the advantage with.

The problem is how they are using Rondo once in the half court.  Having him set up outside on the weakside and wait.  How is that a good use for him.  Either keep him on the strong side or use him cutting through the lane or running the baseline (when the ball is not in his hand). 

The problem is that, because of the way this offense is set up, he's only helpful if he can hit a jumper.  If Pierce were playing well offensively, that might change.

Honestly, if Rondo can't hit the jumper and Cassell is having an off night, this team might be better off letting Allen bring the ball up and playing a big lineup on the court with something like Allen, Pierce, Garnett, Brown and Perkins on occasion.  They'd be S.L.O.W., but they'd win on the glass and keep James outside.

[bagley5]

it is never all one person's fault, it is always a combination of things.  but the celtics have the far superior roster, and they are not getting the most of it, and for the second straight series, the other team is dictating too much how the celtics play.  and when they lose, they are losing close games where coaching makes the biggest difference - to me, all of that adds up to doc being the primary culprit holding this team back.

[teddykgb]

Celtics need Rondo (along with Perkins) on the floor.  He is the only PG that can set the faster pace the Celtics would have the advantage with.

The problem is how they are using Rondo once in the half court.  Having him set up outside on the weakside and wait.  How is that a good use for him.  Either keep him on the strong side or use him cutting through the lane or running the baseline (when the ball is not in his hand). 

The problem is that, because of the way this offense is set up, he's only helpful if he can hit a jumper.  If Pierce were playing well offensively, that might change.

Honestly, if Rondo can't hit the jumper and Cassell is having an off night, this team might be better off letting Allen bring the ball up and playing a big lineup on the court with something like Allen, Pierce, Garnett, Brown and Perkins on occasion.  They'd be S.L.O.W., but they'd win on the glass and keep James outside.

I've thought this as well, although maybe Posey for Brown.  If we can't get a PG to hit a jumper, Allen at the point would make it very hard for them to guard us.

[Who]

A couple of the ideas I've liked with Rondo are:

(1) Keep him on the strong side
(2) Clear out the weakside to give him an open lane to the hoop
(3) Have him cut to the rim when open
(4) Have him set screens off the ball, instead of just standing still. Get some more player movement and create space to exploit that way.

Then there's the fifth idea where Rondo controls the ball for more of the offense and is responsible for creating more plays off the dribble. Cleveland don't defend the point well. Pierce is being held down. Ray is struggling. KG hasn't come through consistently. Rondo could add more this way than continuing through this. More screen and rolls for Rondo, that type of thing.

[Scintan]

Outrebounded? Really?

C'mon .... The Cavs are the best rebounding team in the league on the season and slaughtered the Wizards in the first round on the backboards.

Outrebounding? Really?

They're not even beating us on the backboards. We've won two games on the backboards, they've won two games on the backboards. All four games were closely contested on the backboards with the advantage normally going to the team who forced the most misses. Overall we're even with them on the backboards through four games.

Outrebounding ..... come on.

The two games the Celtics lost, they were outrebounded.  Perkins played 19 minutes in one game and 26 minutes in the other.  Yes, outrebounding.

When I talked about execution I was talking specifically to the Celtics offensive struggles.

The Celtics struggles have been self inflicted not because of Mike Brown. The overwhelming majority of those reasons have been because of the players and not the coaching staff. Those two reasons are why I don't think Mike Brown is outcoaching the Celtics despite the series being tied 2-2 with a weaker team.

Mike Brown is not playing Rondo when his shot's not falling, Rivers is.  No matter how many times you try to lay off the rotations and the play calls onto the players, they'll always come down to Rivers.  Mike Brown is killing him right now.

[Scintan]

Celtics need Rondo (along with Perkins) on the floor.  He is the only PG that can set the faster pace the Celtics would have the advantage with.

The problem is how they are using Rondo once in the half court.  Having him set up outside on the weakside and wait.  How is that a good use for him.  Either keep him on the strong side or use him cutting through the lane or running the baseline (when the ball is not in his hand). 

The problem is that, because of the way this offense is set up, he's only helpful if he can hit a jumper.  If Pierce were playing well offensively, that might change.

Honestly, if Rondo can't hit the jumper and Cassell is having an off night, this team might be better off letting Allen bring the ball up and playing a big lineup on the court with something like Allen, Pierce, Garnett, Brown and Perkins on occasion.  They'd be S.L.O.W., but they'd win on the glass and keep James outside.

I've thought this as well, although maybe Posey for Brown.  If we can't get a PG to hit a jumper, Allen at the point would make it very hard for them to guard us.

Yes, Posey would be another alternative, no question.