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Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: Monkhouse on January 07, 2018, 09:23:20 PM

Title: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Monkhouse on January 07, 2018, 09:23:20 PM
Quote
While it seems Kawhi Leonard may have partially torn his shoulder, the Spurs don’t seem particularly concerned about the injury. Immediately after mentioning the tear to Tom Orsborn of the San Antonio Express-News, head coach Gregg Popovich said that the forward could potentially return before the end of the team’s three-game road trip.

According to ESPN’s Michael Wright, Leonard has not even been formally ruled out for Thursday’s game.

Interesting to note Pop doesn't seem to take it serious, but always wondered at what point does a player become considered injury prone?
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: liam on January 07, 2018, 09:39:43 PM
Quote
While it seems Kawhi Leonard may have partially torn his shoulder, the Spurs don’t seem particularly concerned about the injury. Immediately after mentioning the tear to Tom Orsborn of the San Antonio Express-News, head coach Gregg Popovich said that the forward could potentially return before the end of the team’s three-game road trip.

According to ESPN’s Michael Wright, Leonard has not even been formally ruled out for Thursday’s game.

Interesting to note Pop doesn't seem to take it serious, but always wondered at what point does a player become considered injury prone?

When they are Danilo Gallinari...
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Somebody on January 08, 2018, 04:56:31 AM
Quote
While it seems Kawhi Leonard may have partially torn his shoulder, the Spurs don’t seem particularly concerned about the injury. Immediately after mentioning the tear to Tom Orsborn of the San Antonio Express-News, head coach Gregg Popovich said that the forward could potentially return before the end of the team’s three-game road trip.

According to ESPN’s Michael Wright, Leonard has not even been formally ruled out for Thursday’s game.

Interesting to note Pop doesn't seem to take it serious, but always wondered at what point does a player become considered injury prone?

When they are Danilo Gallinari...
Yeah Kawhi hasn't torn his ass yet. He's fine, it's just that playing through an injury last year and then getting that "the real FMVP" Zaza closeout just killed his muscles' balance imo.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: playdream on January 08, 2018, 05:39:09 AM
Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Androslav on January 08, 2018, 05:43:51 AM
He is injury prone, he is not a 75-80 games type of guy.
His shoulder is like a boulder that creates so much space for his easy floaters, jumpers, and baby hooks in the lane. So it worries me a bit. But not more than his bizarre leg injury. Lower extremity injuries are more troubling for basketball players IMO.

Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system
Ich ruhe meine koffer :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtlMEC_HAzU
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: playdream on January 08, 2018, 05:58:56 AM
He is injury prone, he is not a 75-80 games type of guy.
His shoulder is like a boulder that creates so much space for his easy floaters, jumpers, and baby hooks in the lane. So it worries me a bit. But not more than his bizarre leg injury. Lower extremity injuries are more troubling for basketball players IMO.

Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system
Ich ruhe meine koffer :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtlMEC_HAzU
Semi just made Lebron give up the game and sit the 4th quarter as a rookie
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: moiso on January 08, 2018, 06:26:32 AM
Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system
Couldn't disagree more.  The Spurs win a lot of games but I can't think of guys who look a lot better in Pop's system than elsewhere.  Simmons, for example, continues to blossom since leaving the Spurs.  I have Kawhi in the Durant and Lebron tier. 
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: RockinRyA on January 08, 2018, 08:01:14 AM
He is injury prone, he is not a 75-80 games type of guy.
His shoulder is like a boulder that creates so much space for his easy floaters, jumpers, and baby hooks in the lane. So it worries me a bit. But not more than his bizarre leg injury. Lower extremity injuries are more troubling for basketball players IMO.

Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system
Ich ruhe meine koffer :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtlMEC_HAzU
Semi just made Lebron give up the game and sit the 4th quarter as a rookie

I don't know how you could possibly believe that. Its either you are joking or a dumbass. Cleveland is on a second night of back to back, the Cavs rested their starters at the start of the fourth, but the lead got extended that it made no more sense to send the starters back in.

My god, posts like this are ruining my hibernation!
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: playdream on January 08, 2018, 09:06:55 AM
He is injury prone, he is not a 75-80 games type of guy.
His shoulder is like a boulder that creates so much space for his easy floaters, jumpers, and baby hooks in the lane. So it worries me a bit. But not more than his bizarre leg injury. Lower extremity injuries are more troubling for basketball players IMO.

Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system
Ich ruhe meine koffer :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtlMEC_HAzU
Semi just made Lebron give up the game and sit the 4th quarter as a rookie

I don't know how you could possibly believe that. Its either you are joking or a dumbass. Cleveland is on a second night of back to back, the Cavs rested their starters at the start of the fourth, but the lead got extended that it made no more sense to send the starters back in.

My god, posts like this are ruining my hibernation!
If Semi didn't totally locked down Lebron in 3rd you won't have that fourth, that's the truth
And he locked down the greek freak, too
last night it's Dinwddie(?) and RHJ, you can see how frustrate they were
Semi is really becoming a force in the league
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: kozlodoev on January 08, 2018, 09:51:23 AM
"Partial tear" of what? Muscle, cartilage, ligaments... his long sleeved jersey? That's an awful bit of reporting right there.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: gouki88 on January 08, 2018, 10:10:35 AM
Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system
LOL - there's been a lot of ridiculousness on this board, but off the top of my head this takes the cake. Insane
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 08, 2018, 02:43:52 PM
Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system
Couldn't disagree more.  The Spurs win a lot of games but I can't think of guys who look a lot better in Pop's system than elsewhere.  Simmons, for example, continues to blossom since leaving the Spurs.  I have Kawhi in the Durant and Lebron tier.
San Antonio is 27-14 this season.  Leonard has played in 8 of those games and the Spurs are 4-4 in those games, making them 23-10 without Leonard.  They even won all 4 games that Leonard didn't play since Leonard came back.  I think there may be some credence to the fact that Leonard has become overrated.  He is a scorer and a great defender, but he isn't a guy that can run an offense or a team.  His passing skills are poor (for a top level player).  He isn't a good rebounder.  He doesn't have great size, speed, or athleticism.  He uses his intelligence and instincts incredibly well, but he isn't some physical specimen.  He is a great player, but I think this season has shown he isn't in the same class as Lebron or Durant (or Giannis). 
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Phantom255x on January 08, 2018, 03:03:22 PM
Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system

(https://media.giphy.com/media/ZqlvCTNHpqrio/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Androslav on January 08, 2018, 03:11:50 PM
Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system
Couldn't disagree more.  The Spurs win a lot of games but I can't think of guys who look a lot better in Pop's system than elsewhere.  Simmons, for example, continues to blossom since leaving the Spurs.  I have Kawhi in the Durant and Lebron tier.
San Antonio is 27-14 this season.  Leonard has played in 8 of those games and the Spurs are 4-4 in those games, making them 23-10 without Leonard.  They even won all 4 games that Leonard didn't play since Leonard came back.  I think there may be some credence to the fact that Leonard has become overrated.  He is a scorer and a great defender, but he isn't a guy that can run an offense or a team.  His passing skills are poor (for a top level player).  He isn't a good rebounder.  He doesn't have great size, speed, or athleticism. He uses his intelligence and instincts incredibly well, but he isn't some physical specimen.  He is a great player, but I think this season has shown he isn't in the same class as Lebron or Durant (or Giannis).
Moranis with time I honestly became a fan of your pragmatic perspective, but I disagree with your take on Kawhi. You say he doesn't have a great size (It is enough not to get pushed towards the basket by LeBron, a true and definite test of that), speed (OK, not elite as prime DRose or IT, but still excellent for his size IMO), and Athleticism (includes, but is not limited to aforementioned speed and size. He is explosive, has 2 sizes bigger arms and hands than his body would suggest, while retaining the agility and dexterity. Personally, I think that pound for pound there is no stronger player in the league.
Sure the regular season record numbers would back up your opinion, but when Kawhi is 100% healthy he makes fans worldwide believe that the epic Warriors can be beaten.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: kozlodoev on January 08, 2018, 03:19:27 PM
"Doesn't have great size, speed of athleticism". Everyone's favorite knock against Paul Pierce.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 08, 2018, 03:38:15 PM
"Doesn't have great size, speed of athleticism". Everyone's favorite knock against Paul Pierce.
And that was true of Paul Pierce also (at least compared to the elite of the elite).  Leonard is a great player, I just don't see him in James, Durant, or Giannis class of player.  Those guys are just a different level athletically and have a much better all around game (i.e. more complete offensive players and comparable defensively).  There is no shame in being the 4th best SF in the game, which is what Leonard is.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 08, 2018, 03:39:23 PM
Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system
Couldn't disagree more.  The Spurs win a lot of games but I can't think of guys who look a lot better in Pop's system than elsewhere.  Simmons, for example, continues to blossom since leaving the Spurs.  I have Kawhi in the Durant and Lebron tier.
San Antonio is 27-14 this season.  Leonard has played in 8 of those games and the Spurs are 4-4 in those games, making them 23-10 without Leonard.  They even won all 4 games that Leonard didn't play since Leonard came back.  I think there may be some credence to the fact that Leonard has become overrated.  He is a scorer and a great defender, but he isn't a guy that can run an offense or a team.  His passing skills are poor (for a top level player).  He isn't a good rebounder.  He doesn't have great size, speed, or athleticism.  He uses his intelligence and instincts incredibly well, but he isn't some physical specimen.  He is a great player, but I think this season has shown he isn't in the same class as Lebron or Durant (or Giannis).

wait are you seriously trying to use an 8 game sample where Leonard is trying to get in shape and playing 50% less minutes than years as some sort of argument about his value to their record? He played 20 minutes or less in half those games Your stat manipulations are very impressive at times. Just presenting that with a straight face is heroic.

PS: Did you not watch last year's playoffs before and after they lost him? That alone would end any argument of his value to their team.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on January 08, 2018, 04:08:50 PM
"Partial tear" of what? Muscle, cartilage, ligaments... his long sleeved jersey? That's an awful bit of reporting right there.

I like how the original quote says that Leonard "may have partially torn his shoulder." Torn his shoulder? Like, his shoulder is on its way to falling off?
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Monkhouse on January 08, 2018, 04:17:06 PM
"Partial tear" of what? Muscle, cartilage, ligaments... his long sleeved jersey? That's an awful bit of reporting right there.

I like how the original quote says that Leonard "may have partially torn his shoulder." Torn his shoulder? Like, his shoulder is on its way to falling off?

That is what the hoopsrumor and trade rumors noted it as lol. I'm just copy pasting.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on January 08, 2018, 04:20:43 PM
"Partial tear" of what? Muscle, cartilage, ligaments... his long sleeved jersey? That's an awful bit of reporting right there.

I like how the original quote says that Leonard "may have partially torn his shoulder." Torn his shoulder? Like, his shoulder is on its way to falling off?

That is what the hoopsrumor and trade rumors noted it as lol. I'm just copy pasting.

No problem! I'm an editor, so this is my type of humor!
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 08, 2018, 04:20:49 PM
Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system
Couldn't disagree more.  The Spurs win a lot of games but I can't think of guys who look a lot better in Pop's system than elsewhere.  Simmons, for example, continues to blossom since leaving the Spurs.  I have Kawhi in the Durant and Lebron tier.
San Antonio is 27-14 this season.  Leonard has played in 8 of those games and the Spurs are 4-4 in those games, making them 23-10 without Leonard.  They even won all 4 games that Leonard didn't play since Leonard came back.  I think there may be some credence to the fact that Leonard has become overrated.  He is a scorer and a great defender, but he isn't a guy that can run an offense or a team.  His passing skills are poor (for a top level player).  He isn't a good rebounder.  He doesn't have great size, speed, or athleticism.  He uses his intelligence and instincts incredibly well, but he isn't some physical specimen.  He is a great player, but I think this season has shown he isn't in the same class as Lebron or Durant (or Giannis).

wait are you seriously trying to use an 8 game sample where Leonard is trying to get in shape and playing 50% less minutes than years as some sort of argument about his value to their record? He played 20 minutes or less in half those games Your stat manipulations are very impressive at times. Just presenting that with a straight face is heroic.

PS: Did you not watch last year's playoffs before and after they lost him? That alone would end any argument of his value to their team.
The bigger side of that is they are 23-10 without him.  He played in 74 regular season games last year.  The Spurs were 7-1 in the games he missed.  They were 7-3 the year before that without Leonard.  9-9 the year before that.  8-8 the year before that.  15-9 the year before that.

In other words, Leonard has missed a lot of games and the Spurs have never been worse than .500 without him and their 3 best seasons without him are their 3 most recent seasons at 23-10, 7-1, and 7-3. 

How truly valuable is a player if in the last 51 regular season games he has missed his team is 37-14?  Leonard is much more like Paul Pierce than Lebron James.  That makes him a great player, but it does not make him a super duper elite player. 
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 08, 2018, 06:39:32 PM
Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system
Couldn't disagree more.  The Spurs win a lot of games but I can't think of guys who look a lot better in Pop's system than elsewhere.  Simmons, for example, continues to blossom since leaving the Spurs.  I have Kawhi in the Durant and Lebron tier.
San Antonio is 27-14 this season.  Leonard has played in 8 of those games and the Spurs are 4-4 in those games, making them 23-10 without Leonard.  They even won all 4 games that Leonard didn't play since Leonard came back.  I think there may be some credence to the fact that Leonard has become overrated.  He is a scorer and a great defender, but he isn't a guy that can run an offense or a team.  His passing skills are poor (for a top level player).  He isn't a good rebounder.  He doesn't have great size, speed, or athleticism.  He uses his intelligence and instincts incredibly well, but he isn't some physical specimen.  He is a great player, but I think this season has shown he isn't in the same class as Lebron or Durant (or Giannis).

wait are you seriously trying to use an 8 game sample where Leonard is trying to get in shape and playing 50% less minutes than years as some sort of argument about his value to their record? He played 20 minutes or less in half those games Your stat manipulations are very impressive at times. Just presenting that with a straight face is heroic.

PS: Did you not watch last year's playoffs before and after they lost him? That alone would end any argument of his value to their team.
The bigger side of that is they are 23-10 without him.  He played in 74 regular season games last year.  The Spurs were 7-1 in the games he missed.  They were 7-3 the year before that without Leonard.  9-9 the year before that.  8-8 the year before that.  15-9 the year before that.

In other words, Leonard has missed a lot of games and the Spurs have never been worse than .500 without him and their 3 best seasons without him are their 3 most recent seasons at 23-10, 7-1, and 7-3. 

How truly valuable is a player if in the last 51 regular season games he has missed his team is 37-14?  Leonard is much more like Paul Pierce than Lebron James.  That makes him a great player, but it does not make him a super duper elite player.

Just completely disagree. When he is healthy he is probably the best player in the entire NBA. Pop is a great coach, probably the best ever, and can do a great job masking deficiencies in talent better than anyone in a handful of a regular season games. That doesn't take anything away from Leonard's greatness and Pop would be the first person to tell you that...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BDBQRjtDBt4/

This honestly feels like a skip bayless take.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: playdream on January 08, 2018, 06:44:59 PM
Kawhi is one of the most overrated player in the league, he got covered so much by Pop's system
Couldn't disagree more.  The Spurs win a lot of games but I can't think of guys who look a lot better in Pop's system than elsewhere.  Simmons, for example, continues to blossom since leaving the Spurs.  I have Kawhi in the Durant and Lebron tier.
San Antonio is 27-14 this season.  Leonard has played in 8 of those games and the Spurs are 4-4 in those games, making them 23-10 without Leonard.  They even won all 4 games that Leonard didn't play since Leonard came back.  I think there may be some credence to the fact that Leonard has become overrated.  He is a scorer and a great defender, but he isn't a guy that can run an offense or a team.  His passing skills are poor (for a top level player).  He isn't a good rebounder.  He doesn't have great size, speed, or athleticism.  He uses his intelligence and instincts incredibly well, but he isn't some physical specimen.  He is a great player, but I think this season has shown he isn't in the same class as Lebron or Durant (or Giannis).

wait are you seriously trying to use an 8 game sample where Leonard is trying to get in shape and playing 50% less minutes than years as some sort of argument about his value to their record? He played 20 minutes or less in half those games Your stat manipulations are very impressive at times. Just presenting that with a straight face is heroic.

PS: Did you not watch last year's playoffs before and after they lost him? That alone would end any argument of his value to their team.
The bigger side of that is they are 23-10 without him.  He played in 74 regular season games last year.  The Spurs were 7-1 in the games he missed.  They were 7-3 the year before that without Leonard.  9-9 the year before that.  8-8 the year before that.  15-9 the year before that.

In other words, Leonard has missed a lot of games and the Spurs have never been worse than .500 without him and their 3 best seasons without him are their 3 most recent seasons at 23-10, 7-1, and 7-3. 

How truly valuable is a player if in the last 51 regular season games he has missed his team is 37-14?  Leonard is much more like Paul Pierce than Lebron James.  That makes him a great player, but it does not make him a super duper elite player.

Just completely disagree. When he is healthy he is probably the best player in the entire NBA. Pop is a great coach, probably the best ever, and can do a great job masking deficiencies in talent better than anyone in a handful of a regular season games. That doesn't take anything away from Leonard's greatness and Pop would be the first person to tell you that... Again look at the playoffs last year with him and without. This feels like a skip bayless take.
If your core player goes down in game you are due to lose some games for changed lineup and plays, especially in playoffs against warriors
I think this is the best example of how people overrated him

Larry? MJ? of course you should "expect he brings it night in and night out as the best player on the team like them" as his coach, but to put them on the same level as player is plain laughable
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: gouki88 on January 08, 2018, 06:56:57 PM
"Doesn't have great size, speed of athleticism". Everyone's favorite knock against Paul Pierce.
And that was true of Paul Pierce also (at least compared to the elite of the elite).  Leonard is a great player, I just don't see him in James, Durant, or Giannis class of player.  Those guys are just a different level athletically and have a much better all around game (i.e. more complete offensive players and comparable defensively).  There is no shame in being the 4th best SF in the game, which is what Leonard is.
LOL, behind Giannis??? Amazing
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: csfansince60s on January 08, 2018, 07:56:47 PM
Quote
While it seems Kawhi Leonard may have partially torn his shoulder, the Spurs don’t seem particularly concerned about the injury. Immediately after mentioning the tear to Tom Orsborn of the San Antonio Express-News, head coach Gregg Popovich said that the forward could potentially return before the end of the team’s three-game road trip.

According to ESPN’s Michael Wright, Leonard has not even been formally ruled out for Thursday’s game.

Interesting to note Pop doesn't seem to take it serious, but always wondered at what point does a player become considered injury prone?

TP to the OP for the question.

I am amazed that that this specific, salient question is swept under the rug by the Anthony Davis sentiment that permeates this board.

Not only are threads devoted to his acquisition, but even in threads that start off having nothing to do with AD, the conversation often will get around (devolve, in my opinion) to how that specific matter discussed impacts either acquiring AD or affects AD when he gets here, presuming that NOT acquiring AD is not even an entertain-able thought.

But for his durability issues, AD is the PERFECT fit for our Cs.

Age, skillset, competitive fire>>>>>PERFECT.............BUT.......

AD is the definition of injury-prone. He has already missed 6 games this year. Last year was the only year that he played over (barely) 70 games. His season has been ended twice due to left knee injuries, the same knee that he hurt at the beginning of this year and missed time.

But AD's knee is just the tip (although a troublesome, recurring, problematic tip) of his litany of injuries iceberg.

AD>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>injury prone.....this sounds like fertile ground for a thread on whether we should acquire AD or not and if so, at what cost.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: wayupnorth on January 08, 2018, 08:12:42 PM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 08, 2018, 09:24:32 PM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
I agree 100%. I guess for some he just doesn't make enough commercials or yell at the refs
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 08, 2018, 09:25:28 PM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Giannis is the only player in NBA history to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.  This year he is averaging basically  29 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 1.3 blocks with a TS% of 62.1.  Giannis is better than Leonard right now and the gap is only going to increase.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if entering next season Giannis was considered the best player in the world as he is still just 23 and has gotten exponentially better every single season.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 08, 2018, 09:59:11 PM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Giannis is the only player in NBA history to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.  This year he is averaging basically  29 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 1.3 blocks with a TS% of 62.1.  Giannis is better than Leonard right now and the gap is only going to increase.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if entering next season Giannis was considered the best player in the world as he is still just 23 and has gotten exponentially better every single season.

Serious question. If Giannis is so good right now why are the bucks two games above .500 with Middleton, Bledsoe and Brodgen on their roster and some serviceable vets like snell, Delladova and Henson? Giannis deserves no blame?
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: gouki88 on January 08, 2018, 10:55:11 PM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Giannis is the only player in NBA history to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.  This year he is averaging basically  29 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 1.3 blocks with a TS% of 62.1.  Giannis is better than Leonard right now and the gap is only going to increase.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if entering next season Giannis was considered the best player in the world as he is still just 23 and has gotten exponentially better every single season.
Rofl
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 08, 2018, 11:15:07 PM
He ll be on medicare if he stays out any longer .


At this rate Hayward might beat him back.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Rondo9 on January 08, 2018, 11:23:39 PM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Giannis is the only player in NBA history to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.  This year he is averaging basically  29 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 1.3 blocks with a TS% of 62.1.  Giannis is better than Leonard right now and the gap is only going to increase.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if entering next season Giannis was considered the best player in the world as he is still just 23 and has gotten exponentially better every single season.

Has Giannis carried a team to at least a conference finals?
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 08, 2018, 11:30:11 PM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Giannis is the only player in NBA history to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.  This year he is averaging basically  29 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 1.3 blocks with a TS% of 62.1.  Giannis is better than Leonard right now and the gap is only going to increase.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if entering next season Giannis was considered the best player in the world as he is still just 23 and has gotten exponentially better every single season.

Has Giannis carried a team to at least a conference finals?

I don't think he has even gotten to the second round. This is a pretty insane disrespect to Leonard.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: gouki88 on January 09, 2018, 05:25:53 AM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Giannis is the only player in NBA history to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.  This year he is averaging basically  29 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 1.3 blocks with a TS% of 62.1.  Giannis is better than Leonard right now and the gap is only going to increase.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if entering next season Giannis was considered the best player in the world as he is still just 23 and has gotten exponentially better every single season.

Has Giannis carried a team to at least a conference finals?

I don't think he has even gotten to the second round. This is a pretty insane disrespect to Leonard.
But all those empty numbers he puts up in a weak conference??
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: moiso on January 09, 2018, 05:29:21 AM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Giannis is the only player in NBA history to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.  This year he is averaging basically  29 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 1.3 blocks with a TS% of 62.1.  Giannis is better than Leonard right now and the gap is only going to increase.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if entering next season Giannis was considered the best player in the world as he is still just 23 and has gotten exponentially better every single season.
Giannis is no threat at all from outside.  You have to guard Leonard everywhere on the court.  That is pretty significant. 
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Snakehead on January 09, 2018, 11:33:09 AM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Giannis is the only player in NBA history to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.  This year he is averaging basically  29 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 1.3 blocks with a TS% of 62.1.  Giannis is better than Leonard right now and the gap is only going to increase.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if entering next season Giannis was considered the best player in the world as he is still just 23 and has gotten exponentially better every single season.
Giannis is no threat at all from outside.  You have to guard Leonard everywhere on the court.  That is pretty significant.

It really does.  The Bucks still play very ugly basketball and mostly stand around and watch him play and do what they can off that.  He doesn't do much off ball.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 09, 2018, 12:38:22 PM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Giannis is the only player in NBA history to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.  This year he is averaging basically  29 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 1.3 blocks with a TS% of 62.1.  Giannis is better than Leonard right now and the gap is only going to increase.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if entering next season Giannis was considered the best player in the world as he is still just 23 and has gotten exponentially better every single season.
Giannis is no threat at all from outside.  You have to guard Leonard everywhere on the court.  That is pretty significant.

It really does.  The Bucks still play very ugly basketball and mostly stand around and watch him play and do what they can off that.  He doesn't do much off ball.

Yeah I think Giannis has the chance to be an incredible basketball player. Right now though he shoots 27% from 3 and averages nearly 3 turnovers a game. Players that are absolute superstars and top 5 players don't have their teams struggling around .500. This is especially true when they have some other capable talent on their team. Middleton and Bledsoe are not chopped liver. Delladova, Henson, Snell would all be in the rotation on most playoff teams (and Delladova obviously has on a great team).

Meanwhile Leonard has been defensive player of the year 2x and on an all defensive team the last 4 seasons, a finals MVP, led the league in steals all while playing for a team that routinely wins 50-60 teams (and their clear best player the last few seasons). His scoring average has gone up every season he has been in the league! He doesn't get acclaim or many endorsements cause he is very humble and soft spoken and never argues with the refs or complains about things to the media. Yet somehow we have the take that he is overrated and worse than a 23 year-old that can't shoot on a .500 team. Incredible.
 
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 09, 2018, 12:41:49 PM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Giannis is the only player in NBA history to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.  This year he is averaging basically  29 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 1.3 blocks with a TS% of 62.1.  Giannis is better than Leonard right now and the gap is only going to increase.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if entering next season Giannis was considered the best player in the world as he is still just 23 and has gotten exponentially better every single season.
Giannis is no threat at all from outside.  You have to guard Leonard everywhere on the court.  That is pretty significant.

It really does.  The Bucks still play very ugly basketball and mostly stand around and watch him play and do what they can off that.  He doesn't do much off ball.
Giannis is more ball dominant than Leonard (though their USG% is nearly identical), but his TS% this year is better than Leonard's career best.  His career average for AST% is better than Leonard's career best season (and Giannis has been well above his career average for 3 seasons so it is only getting better).  Giannis is a far superior rebounder and shot blocker.  He gets to the line at .483 or higher the last two seasons (well above Leonard's career best which was last year at .406 and was the only time he was higher than .307 - Giannis career low is .404).  Leonard is a better shooter from deep and the line, but despite that hasn't ever had as efficient a shooting season as Giannis is having this year.  Kawhi is a better all around defender, especially in man to man, but Giannis is a more disruptive defender and better team defender given his length and athleticism (it is why he is a much better shot blocker). 

I just don't get this notion being expressed in this thread that Kawhi, can't stay healthy, Leonard is a better or more valuable player than Giannis Antetokounmpo.  It just doesn't make sense to me, especially when you consider that the Spurs (after winning last night) are now 38-14 without Leonard in the last 3 seasons.  How valuable is a guy whose team wins 73.1% of the games he doesn't play in.  For comparison they are slightly better with Leonard winning 76.6% of their games over the last 3 seasons.

Leonard is a great player, but Giannis is better.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: mmmmm on January 09, 2018, 12:43:46 PM
Opinions is opinions, but my opinion is that, when fully healthy, Leonard may indeed be the best player in the NBA.

He certainly looked like it through last year's playoffs, right up to the moment he was injured by Zaza.   To that point he was posting an NBA-playoffs-best .314 WS/48 rate.

Lots of things get overrated in this world.  Kawhi Leonard as a basketball player probably isn't one of them.

That the Spurs have played well this year is simply a testament to how good the other SAS players are (and how good their coach is).   Gordon Hayward isn't "overrated" just because the Celtics are 33-10.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 09, 2018, 12:54:52 PM
Opinions is opinions, but my opinion is that, when fully healthy, Leonard may indeed be the best player in the NBA.

He certainly looked like it through last year's playoffs, right up to the moment he was injured by Zaza.   To that point he was posting an NBA-playoffs-best .314 WS/48 rate.

Lots of things get overrated in this world.  Kawhi Leonard as a basketball player probably isn't one of them.

That the Spurs have played well this year is simply a testament to how good the other SAS players are (and how good their coach is).  Gordon Hayward isn't "overrated" just because the Celtics are 33-10.

very well said on both points. TP
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 09, 2018, 12:55:00 PM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Giannis is the only player in NBA history to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.  This year he is averaging basically  29 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 1.3 blocks with a TS% of 62.1.  Giannis is better than Leonard right now and the gap is only going to increase.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if entering next season Giannis was considered the best player in the world as he is still just 23 and has gotten exponentially better every single season.
Giannis is no threat at all from outside.  You have to guard Leonard everywhere on the court.  That is pretty significant.

It really does.  The Bucks still play very ugly basketball and mostly stand around and watch him play and do what they can off that.  He doesn't do much off ball.

Yeah I think Giannis has the chance to be an incredible basketball player. Right now though he shoots 27% from 3 and averages nearly 3 turnovers a game. Players that are absolute superstars and top 5 players don't have their teams struggling around .500. This is especially true when they have some other capable talent on their team. Middleton and Bledsoe are not chopped liver. Delladova, Henson, Snell would all be in the rotation on most playoff teams (and Delladova obviously has on a great team).

Meanwhile Leonard has been defensive player of the year 2x and on an all defensive team the last 4 seasons, a finals MVP, led the league in steals all while playing for a team that routinely wins 50-60 teams (and their clear best player the last few seasons). His scoring average has gone up every season he has been in the league! He doesn't get acclaim or many endorsements cause he is very humble and soft spoken and never argues with the refs or complains about things to the media. Yet somehow we have the take that he is overrated and worse than a 23 year-old that can't shoot on a .500 team. Incredible.
Just for some reference, this year Giannis' TOV% is 10.8%.  Kevin Durant is 13.4, Lebron James is 16.8.  In Michael Jordan's 5th season (same as Giannis) he was 11.9.  Larry Bird ended his career with a TOV% of 12.7 and was only below 12.4 twice.  Magic Johnson finished his career at 19.4%. 

When you run your team's offense you are going to commit turnovers because you pass a lot, you shoot a lot, you dribble a lot, etc.  One of Leonard's main offensive flaws is that he doesn't run the Spurs offense (it is also one of the main reasons that Spurs win at nearly the same rate without him on the floor).  He is much more an off the ball player.  That is why he doesn't get to the line as much as other elite players, that is why he doesn't get assists, and that is why he doesn't turn the ball over. 
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 09, 2018, 01:03:17 PM
Also, the team success narrative is a pretty poor argument.  The Bucks are not a well run organization, they aren't well coached, they lack top end talent (Middleton and Bledsoe are 3rd options at best), etc.

Reminds a great deal of the Timberwolves during KG's time.  Not much better than a .500 level team with almost 0 playoff success, but it didn't stop 23 year old KG in his 5th year from finishing 2nd in MVP voting coming off a season of 22.9 p, 11.8 r, 5 a, 1.5 s, 1.6 b w/ 3.3 t on 54.5 TS%.   In fact, there are plenty of similarities between Giannis and KG and their career trajectories. 
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 09, 2018, 01:16:15 PM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Giannis is the only player in NBA history to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.  This year he is averaging basically  29 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 1.3 blocks with a TS% of 62.1.  Giannis is better than Leonard right now and the gap is only going to increase.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if entering next season Giannis was considered the best player in the world as he is still just 23 and has gotten exponentially better every single season.
Giannis is no threat at all from outside.  You have to guard Leonard everywhere on the court.  That is pretty significant.

It really does.  The Bucks still play very ugly basketball and mostly stand around and watch him play and do what they can off that.  He doesn't do much off ball.

Yeah I think Giannis has the chance to be an incredible basketball player. Right now though he shoots 27% from 3 and averages nearly 3 turnovers a game. Players that are absolute superstars and top 5 players don't have their teams struggling around .500. This is especially true when they have some other capable talent on their team. Middleton and Bledsoe are not chopped liver. Delladova, Henson, Snell would all be in the rotation on most playoff teams (and Delladova obviously has on a great team).

Meanwhile Leonard has been defensive player of the year 2x and on an all defensive team the last 4 seasons, a finals MVP, led the league in steals all while playing for a team that routinely wins 50-60 teams (and their clear best player the last few seasons). His scoring average has gone up every season he has been in the league! He doesn't get acclaim or many endorsements cause he is very humble and soft spoken and never argues with the refs or complains about things to the media. Yet somehow we have the take that he is overrated and worse than a 23 year-old that can't shoot on a .500 team. Incredible.
Just for some reference, this year Giannis' TOV% is 10.8%.  Kevin Durant is 13.4, Lebron James is 16.8.  In Michael Jordan's 5th season (same as Giannis) he was 11.9.  Larry Bird ended his career with a TOV% of 12.7 and was only below 12.4 twice.  Magic Johnson finished his career at 19.4%. 

When you run your team's offense you are going to commit turnovers because you pass a lot, you shoot a lot, you dribble a lot, etc.  One of Leonard's main offensive flaws is that he doesn't run the Spurs offense (it is also one of the main reasons that Spurs win at nearly the same rate without him on the floor).  He is much more an off the ball player.  That is why he doesn't get to the line as much as other elite players, that is why he doesn't get assists, and that is why he doesn't turn the ball over.

This is a pretty classic argument tactic of yours (particularly in a losing argument). Myself and many other mentions that Giannis can't spread the floor, that Leonard has been recognized by his peers and the league as the best defensive player in the game, that he had the best statistics of anyone in last year's playoffs before being hurt and that his scoring has improved every single season, that a team doing good when a player is out doesn't lessen their talent (see hayward, celtics). You ignore all those others points by everyone and latch onto the fact that I pointed out Giannis is averaging a lot of turnovers and muddle the argument with some stats from high usage players and their turnovers.

Do you genuinely think that Pop, referencing him with all-time great, and just about every poster that has spoken on the subject on this board is wrong and you are the only one that can figure out how overrated Leonard is? This really feels like I am debating with Skip Bayless.

Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 09, 2018, 01:41:39 PM
Leonard is every bit on KD's and LBJ's level, and it really humors me someone thinks that Giannis, right now, is better than him. That is ludicrous, Leonard is a far superior player.

Heck, I could very well pick Leonard over KD if push came to shove.
Giannis is the only player in NBA history to finish in the top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.  This year he is averaging basically  29 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, and 1.3 blocks with a TS% of 62.1.  Giannis is better than Leonard right now and the gap is only going to increase.  I wouldn't be all that surprised if entering next season Giannis was considered the best player in the world as he is still just 23 and has gotten exponentially better every single season.
Giannis is no threat at all from outside.  You have to guard Leonard everywhere on the court.  That is pretty significant.

It really does.  The Bucks still play very ugly basketball and mostly stand around and watch him play and do what they can off that.  He doesn't do much off ball.

Yeah I think Giannis has the chance to be an incredible basketball player. Right now though he shoots 27% from 3 and averages nearly 3 turnovers a game. Players that are absolute superstars and top 5 players don't have their teams struggling around .500. This is especially true when they have some other capable talent on their team. Middleton and Bledsoe are not chopped liver. Delladova, Henson, Snell would all be in the rotation on most playoff teams (and Delladova obviously has on a great team).

Meanwhile Leonard has been defensive player of the year 2x and on an all defensive team the last 4 seasons, a finals MVP, led the league in steals all while playing for a team that routinely wins 50-60 teams (and their clear best player the last few seasons). His scoring average has gone up every season he has been in the league! He doesn't get acclaim or many endorsements cause he is very humble and soft spoken and never argues with the refs or complains about things to the media. Yet somehow we have the take that he is overrated and worse than a 23 year-old that can't shoot on a .500 team. Incredible.
Just for some reference, this year Giannis' TOV% is 10.8%.  Kevin Durant is 13.4, Lebron James is 16.8.  In Michael Jordan's 5th season (same as Giannis) he was 11.9.  Larry Bird ended his career with a TOV% of 12.7 and was only below 12.4 twice.  Magic Johnson finished his career at 19.4%. 

When you run your team's offense you are going to commit turnovers because you pass a lot, you shoot a lot, you dribble a lot, etc.  One of Leonard's main offensive flaws is that he doesn't run the Spurs offense (it is also one of the main reasons that Spurs win at nearly the same rate without him on the floor).  He is much more an off the ball player.  That is why he doesn't get to the line as much as other elite players, that is why he doesn't get assists, and that is why he doesn't turn the ball over.

This is a pretty classic argument tactic of yours (particularly in a losing argument). Myself and many other mentions that Giannis can't spread the floor, that Leonard has been recognized by his peers and the league as the best defensive player in the game, that he had the best statistics of anyone in last year's playoffs before being hurt and that his scoring has improved every single season, that a team doing good when a player is out doesn't lessen their talent (see hayward, celtics). You ignore all those others points by everyone and latch onto the fact that I pointed out Giannis is averaging a lot of turnovers and muddle the argument with some stats from high usage players and their turnovers.

Do you genuinely think that Pop, referencing him with all-time great, and just about every poster that has spoken on the subject on this board is wrong and you are the only one that can figure out how overrated Leonard is? This really feels like I am debating with Skip Bayless.
I believe Leonard is the 4th best SF and likely the 5th best player in the world (I'd put Curry ahead of him as well and would listen to arguments on Harden, Davis, and Westbrook, but no one else).  I'm not saying he isn't a great player, I'm saying he isn't better than James, Durant, Giannis, or Curry. 

And I've never said Giannis was a good 3 point shooter, what I've said is that even with his poor 3 point shooting, he is still in the midst of a better overall shooting season (i.e. TS%) than any season in Leonard's career.  He is able to do that because he is a better all around offensive player than Leonard in that, he creates offense for himself and his teammates, like Leonard cannot do.  And Giannis was 2nd team all defense last year finishing in the top ten in both blocks and steals and he is a better all around defender this year than he was last year. 

Hayward played 5 minutes on the Celtics.  If Hayward had played this whole season and the Celtics won 70% of their games, and then Hayward missed the following season with basically the same team and that team won 70% of their games, you could certainly argue that Hayward wasn't nearly as valuable to the team's success as you might have believed.  Given the Jazz went from a pretty good team to a poor team when Hayward was removed, you can see how valuable Hayward was to the Jazz's success.  All we have with Leonard is a team that wins 76.6% of the games he plays and that same team that wins 73.1% of the games he doesn't play (over the last 3 seasons and because Kawhi misses so much time it is actually a pretty good sample size for both). 

For the record, Giannis was quite good in the playoffs last year averaging 24.8 p, 9.5 r, 4 a, 2.2 s, 1.7 b with a TS% of 56.3% (and he even shot 40% from three).  Let's not pretend that Giannis is the reason the Bucks went 2-4 in the playoffs.  And yes Kawhi was better in the playoffs last year than Giannis was, but he also plays on a much better team (as evident by their record both last year and this year without Kawhi). 
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: nickagneta on January 09, 2018, 02:11:58 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 09, 2018, 02:25:13 PM
It is also just strange to add up regular season winning percentages for a handful of games for a good coached team with other talent as an argument.

Gobert is a pretty good player? The jazz are 6-12 with him playing this year. They are 10 and 12 when he doesn't. Does that mean he has less value?

The Celtics are going to win close to 60 games this year most likely. How many will they win next year? 60 again with Hayward?

Sure you notice a crazy difference with a team like the Cavs that have built their entire roster around the talent and skillset of Lebron (3 point shooters that can hit the open 3 off of Lebron's penetrations and doubles). So when he doesn't play they become a truly awful team. That doesn't mean someone like Love is an awful player.

Just cause the Celtics and Spurs have great systems with good coaching and can perform above their talent level, doesn't make a player like Hayward or Leonard any less valuable.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 09, 2018, 02:45:57 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: wayupnorth on January 09, 2018, 03:18:50 PM
Opinions is opinions, but my opinion is that, when fully healthy, Leonard may indeed be the best player in the NBA.

He certainly looked like it through last year's playoffs, right up to the moment he was injured by Zaza.   To that point he was posting an NBA-playoffs-best .314 WS/48 rate.

Lots of things get overrated in this world.  Kawhi Leonard as a basketball player probably isn't one of them.

That the Spurs have played well this year is simply a testament to how good the other SAS players are (and how good their coach is).   Gordon Hayward isn't "overrated" just because the Celtics are 33-10.

Really great post.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 09, 2018, 03:27:53 PM
Opinions is opinions, but my opinion is that, when fully healthy, Leonard may indeed be the best player in the NBA.

He certainly looked like it through last year's playoffs, right up to the moment he was injured by Zaza.   To that point he was posting an NBA-playoffs-best .314 WS/48 rate.

Lots of things get overrated in this world.  Kawhi Leonard as a basketball player probably isn't one of them.

That the Spurs have played well this year is simply a testament to how good the other SAS players are (and how good their coach is).   Gordon Hayward isn't "overrated" just because the Celtics are 33-10.

Really great post.

tp to you both
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: footey on January 09, 2018, 03:29:54 PM
Given what KL did in the 2014 NBA Finals (Finals MVP, outplayed Lebron as I recall), and how well Spurs looked in game 1 of last year's conf finals vs. GSW before getting injured, to me, a healthy KL is in the same class as Lebron and Durant, and a notch above Giannis (who hasn't done anything of note other than fill up a stat sheet; let's get real). 

The issue is his health. If he is healthy, he is a top 3 NBA player.  Poll NBA GM's and pretty sure vast majority would agree with that ranking. Now Giannis may project to have greater future value. I get that. But in a play-off series today, I'd take Leonard.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: nickagneta on January 09, 2018, 03:32:21 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 09, 2018, 09:51:32 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: nickagneta on January 09, 2018, 10:02:41 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: wayupnorth on January 09, 2018, 11:13:44 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 10, 2018, 01:10:37 AM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: rondofan1255 on January 10, 2018, 01:51:21 AM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 10, 2018, 06:24:36 AM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.
I never said he was inferior because of the Spurs record.  I only brought up their record because others were discussing the Spurs system. I used their record to show that the Spurs system produced a very good team when Leonard didn't play.  I then said I believed Leonard was the 4th best SF because Leonard wasn't as athletically gifted as the top 3 and doesn't run the Spurs offense this making him a more incomplete offensive player.  After my initial post the Spurs and Bucks record was discussed a lot which is why I kept talking about it.

So in sum, I don't believe Leonard is the 5th best player in the world because the Spurs are a 73% winning team when he doesn't play, I believe he is the 5th best player in the world because there are 4 players that are better than him.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 10, 2018, 12:25:05 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Monkhouse on January 10, 2018, 12:36:44 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: playdream on January 10, 2018, 12:48:12 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Monkhouse on January 10, 2018, 12:55:30 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so

Sure Giannis's durability is definitely more fruitful. KL to me is still a better defender and superior shooter while having a proven track record in the playoffs of shutting players down. I'm not disregarding Giannis's but as you said yourself, the upside is very high which tells me you don't think Giannis is the better player now? Either way top 4, top 3, top 5 SF is extremely irrelevant. It's crazy to remember PG 13 was in the conversation not too long ago. How time flies.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 10, 2018, 01:48:37 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so

Sure Giannis's durability is definitely more fruitful. KL to me is still a better defender and superior shooter while having a proven track record in the playoffs of shutting players down. I'm not disregarding Giannis's but as you said yourself, the upside is very high which tells me you don't think Giannis is the better player now? Either way top 4, top 3, top 5 SF is extremely irrelevant. It's crazy to remember PG 13 was in the conversation not too long ago. How time flies.
Giannis severely stunted the Raptors wings defensively in their series last year.  I think people just aren't quite up on just how good Giannis is defensively.  He is very close to a healthy Leonard in man defense.  And his rebounding and team defense is better than Leonard's in my mind making them about equal overall defensively.  He doesn't shoot as well as Leonard, but Giannis does so much more offensively, I think he more than makes up for the shooting edge Leonard has (and again Giannis this year has a higher TS% than any season in Leonard's career).  Obviously Giannis isn't as tested as Leonard is and you never truly know how a player will perform until he faces that heat, but thus far Giannis has lived up to every challenge (including the playoffs last year) and I see no reason why he won't continue to do that this year. 
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 10, 2018, 02:08:12 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so

Sure Giannis's durability is definitely more fruitful. KL to me is still a better defender and superior shooter while having a proven track record in the playoffs of shutting players down. I'm not disregarding Giannis's but as you said yourself, the upside is very high which tells me you don't think Giannis is the better player now? Either way top 4, top 3, top 5 SF is extremely irrelevant. It's crazy to remember PG 13 was in the conversation not too long ago. How time flies.
Giannis severely stunted the Raptors wings defensively in their series last year.  I think people just aren't quite up on just how good Giannis is defensively.  He is very close to a healthy Leonard in man defense.  And his rebounding and team defense is better than Leonard's in my mind making them about equal overall defensively.  He doesn't shoot as well as Leonard, but Giannis does so much more offensively, I think he more than makes up for the shooting edge Leonard has (and again Giannis this year has a higher TS% than any season in Leonard's career).  Obviously Giannis isn't as tested as Leonard is and you never truly know how a player will perform until he faces that heat, but thus far Giannis has lived up to every challenge (including the playoffs last year) and I see no reason why he won't continue to do that this year.

So you got the guy (Leonard) that has won 2 out of the last 3 defensive player of the year awards and has made 3 straight all defensive first teams as possibly the same or worse at defensive than a guy that has made one all defensive second team?
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: wayupnorth on January 10, 2018, 02:13:45 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so

Sure Giannis's durability is definitely more fruitful. KL to me is still a better defender and superior shooter while having a proven track record in the playoffs of shutting players down. I'm not disregarding Giannis's but as you said yourself, the upside is very high which tells me you don't think Giannis is the better player now? Either way top 4, top 3, top 5 SF is extremely irrelevant. It's crazy to remember PG 13 was in the conversation not too long ago. How time flies.
Giannis severely stunted the Raptors wings defensively in their series last year.  I think people just aren't quite up on just how good Giannis is defensively.  He is very close to a healthy Leonard in man defense.  And his rebounding and team defense is better than Leonard's in my mind making them about equal overall defensively.  He doesn't shoot as well as Leonard, but Giannis does so much more offensively, I think he more than makes up for the shooting edge Leonard has (and again Giannis this year has a higher TS% than any season in Leonard's career).  Obviously Giannis isn't as tested as Leonard is and you never truly know how a player will perform until he faces that heat, but thus far Giannis has lived up to every challenge (including the playoffs last year) and I see no reason why he won't continue to do that this year.

So you got the guy (Leonard) that has won 2 out of the last 3 defensive player of the year awards and has made 3 straight all defensive first teams as possibly the same or worse at defensive than a guy that has made one all defensive second team?

Sure appears that way.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: nickagneta on January 10, 2018, 04:01:30 PM
Giannis this year has a TS% of 62.1%.

Kawhi has had years of TS% of 61.6%, 61% and 60.2%.

The only reason Giannis has this barely higher TS% in this half year than Kawhi has done in 3 years is because he is going to the line 11 times a game. He has been given by the refs the same star treatment that Lebron and Harden...barrel into the lane and initiate contact and get the foul called in your favor every time.

And why does Giannis take this offensive approach? Because everyone is backing off him daring him to shoot from deep because he is awful at it. Only 8.8% of The Freak's FGA are three pointers and he is hitting them at a 27% rate.

Leonard has a much more diversified offensive arsenal and yet remains elite in his efficiency and Kawhi is the better defensive player. For these reasons I think KL is the better player.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 10, 2018, 04:10:48 PM
Giannis is taking 9.2 FT's a game.  He is getting to the line slightly less frequently this year then he was last year (at least as a % of total shots).  His TS% is also very high because he is shooting an insane 57.9% from 2.  He has improved that every single year in the league.  Leonard hasn't shot above 53% from 2 since his first 3 seasons in the league. 

At the end of the day, I prefer the guy that scores more with a better TS%, rebounds more, and passes more.  That just seems like it is a better recipe for winning basketball. 
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: nickagneta on January 10, 2018, 04:32:41 PM
Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.

Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 10, 2018, 04:41:26 PM
Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: nickagneta on January 10, 2018, 04:51:50 PM
Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: playdream on January 10, 2018, 06:23:19 PM
Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
Ever heard a player named Shaq?
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: PhoSita on January 10, 2018, 06:26:38 PM


At the end of the day, I prefer the guy that scores more with a better TS%, rebounds more, and passes more.  That just seems like it is a better recipe for winning basketball.

And yet Giannis's team has struggled to get to .500 or better, while Kawhi's team just keeps winning, and winning, and winning.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: playdream on January 10, 2018, 06:33:52 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so

Sure Giannis's durability is definitely more fruitful. KL to me is still a better defender and superior shooter while having a proven track record in the playoffs of shutting players down. I'm not disregarding Giannis's but as you said yourself, the upside is very high which tells me you don't think Giannis is the better player now? Either way top 4, top 3, top 5 SF is extremely irrelevant. It's crazy to remember PG 13 was in the conversation not too long ago. How time flies.
I literally said it i think he is a better player..
Someone may compare their "achievement" ,rings, all-nbas ,1st teams all defense, wins
and it's exactly the reason KL is overrated because he did it under pop and spurs and Giannis is under Kid and bucks.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 10, 2018, 07:51:17 PM
Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
Ever heard a player named Shaq?

I honestly can't tell if this is serious or a joke. Are we saying it doesn't matter he can't shoot outside cause of Shaq? If so, bravo
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 10, 2018, 08:00:31 PM
Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
How'd that go for the Raptors last year?
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 10, 2018, 08:02:48 PM


At the end of the day, I prefer the guy that scores more with a better TS%, rebounds more, and passes more.  That just seems like it is a better recipe for winning basketball.

And yet Giannis's team has struggled to get to .500 or better, while Kawhi's team just keeps winning, and winning, and winning.
hey the nonsensical winning argument again.  And just to repeat it. The Spurs have won over 73% of the over 50 games Kawhi has missed the last 3 seasons.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 10, 2018, 08:14:04 PM


At the end of the day, I prefer the guy that scores more with a better TS%, rebounds more, and passes more.  That just seems like it is a better recipe for winning basketball.

And yet Giannis's team has struggled to get to .500 or better, while Kawhi's team just keeps winning, and winning, and winning.
hey the nonsensical winning argument again.  And just to repeat it. The Spurs have won over 73% of the over 50 games Kawhi has missed the last 3 seasons.

Phosita, your move

(https://memegenerator.net/img/images/600x600/16123757/vladimir-putin-eating-popcorn.jpg)
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: nickagneta on January 10, 2018, 08:36:37 PM
Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
How'd that go for the Raptors last year?
Ummmm, yeah. The Raptors won 4-2 and Giannis' per 36 numbers were down regular season vs playoffs and his TS% dropped almost 4 percentage points. Guess it worked out okay for the Raptors.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on January 10, 2018, 09:33:31 PM
Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
How'd that go for the Raptors last year?
Ummmm, yeah. The Raptors won 4-2 and Giannis' per 36 numbers were down regular season vs playoffs and his TS% dropped almost 4 percentage points. Guess it worked out okay for the Raptors.
his eFG% actually was better. His ts% went down because Giannis was awful from the line shooting an awful 54.3% well below his 77% season average (which has absolutely nothing to do with the Raptors defense).  In other words the Raptors didmt stop Giannis at all.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: wayupnorth on January 10, 2018, 10:55:47 PM
Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
How'd that go for the Raptors last year?
Ummmm, yeah. The Raptors won 4-2 and Giannis' per 36 numbers were down regular season vs playoffs and his TS% dropped almost 4 percentage points. Guess it worked out okay for the Raptors.
his eFG% actually was better. His ts% went down because Giannis was awful from the line shooting an awful 54.3% well below his 77% season average (which has absolutely nothing to do with the Raptors defense).  In other words the Raptors didmt stop Giannis at all.

Yeah, I am sure his per 36 numbers being down had nothing to do with the Raptors defense. Certainly must have been a cold he had or something. I am sure the only reason his team lost was his team and had zero to do with him.

Of course he is better than a guy with a ring, finals MVP, and is better at defense than a multiple first team defense award winner, two defensive player of the year award winner, and a guy that was able to take LBJ out of a the finals like no one else.

Seriously, I have to wonder if you aren't just playing devils advocate here, because this take is just too hot.

There is simply no way to see each of their careers to this point, and declare Giannis better. None.

Might he be better eventually? Possibly.

But now? Guy can't even take his team to a top 4 seed in a conference that is garbage outside of the top 3 teams.

I cannot disagree with you enough.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Monkhouse on January 10, 2018, 11:23:14 PM
I find it hypocritical to use the Spurs success when Leonard is out of the lineup against him but poo poo the fact that a supposed better player in Giannis with very good players around can barely win at a .500 level. Spurs have great coaching and the Bucks don't. Okay that makes sense and if that is true then the whole win correlation to greatness of player is irrelevant, IMHO.
How much did Kevin Garnett win in Minnesota?  In the prime of his career, Hakeem had 4 straight seasons of no more than 46 wins, won 52, and then won 42 (missing the playoffs).  The Rockets were 1-5 in playoff series in those seasons (and the win was the first of those 6 seasons, so the Rockets went 5 seasons in Hakeem's prime without winning a single playoff series). 

How much does Anthony Davis win in New Orleans?  How much did Demarcus Cousins win in Sacramento and now New Orleans with Davis?  How much did the reigning MVP win last year in Oklahoma City or this year for that matter with two other All NBA level players on his team?  How much did Jimmy Butler win last year in Chicago or Paul George in Indiana?  Paul Pierce was on how many losing teams in his prime?

Basketball is a team game, you win or lose based on your team.  The fact that the Spurs are so good without Leonard shows just how good that team is.  Leonard obviously takes them from very good to elite level, because he is a great player, but I just don't see him as better than the 4 guys I mentioned.
So you agree with me. Team regular season record has no correlation as to yhe talent level or greatness of a player
yes, but that hasn't been my point in that regard. My point was you can't use the Spurs success to show Leonard's greatness while using the lack of the Bucks' success against Giannis especially given how good the Spurs have been without Leonard the last 3 seasons.
Yeah, but it was you who first said Leonard was inferior because of the Spurs record without him. Seems like you're moving the goalposts here.

I had the same thought.

I also had the same thought.

As did I.

Rare to see such agreement on a topic. TP's around. I really really hope Leonard is healthy during the playoffs this year so we can see how truly dominant he is as a weapon against top teams. It seems like his injuries have made some forget.

I did too but considering how much you guys unanimously agreed upon, it felt like a pack of wolves vying so closely to their cornered prey lol.

Honestly it's amazing people don't consider Leonard better than Giannis. The same argument for Giannis is the same argument made for AD or DMC. All great star players, but track record very similar. As people have said Pops is still one of the greatest coaches so it's not surprising to see that the team has thrived without Leonard's help. To say the teams record is cogzniant of Leonard's ineffectiveness is just foolish. I take Leonard over Giannis any time of the day personally. I posted this thread though, because I wanted people's input on how long it takes before people assume someone is injury prone. Obviously the Zaza ankle injury was by accident, but the same moral attachments seem to follow AD, so why not KL?
Giannis for his durability alone is a far better player than Leonard now...not to mention the upside..it's hilarious for me but people can have their opinions so

Sure Giannis's durability is definitely more fruitful. KL to me is still a better defender and superior shooter while having a proven track record in the playoffs of shutting players down. I'm not disregarding Giannis's but as you said yourself, the upside is very high which tells me you don't think Giannis is the better player now? Either way top 4, top 3, top 5 SF is extremely irrelevant. It's crazy to remember PG 13 was in the conversation not too long ago. How time flies.
I literally said it i think he is a better player..
Someone may compare their "achievement" ,rings, all-nbas ,1st teams all defense, wins
and it's exactly the reason KL is overrated because he did it under pop and spurs and Giannis is under Kid and bucks.

Okay well not even gonna bother arguing with you because I disagree wholeheartedly. You say it's cause KL did it under pop, but the fact pop entrusted someone like KL with the keys to the offense says a lot.. Regardless, it doesn't seem like you're gonna sway from your opinion so let's agree to disagree.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Monkhouse on January 10, 2018, 11:26:45 PM
Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
How'd that go for the Raptors last year?
Ummmm, yeah. The Raptors won 4-2 and Giannis' per 36 numbers were down regular season vs playoffs and his TS% dropped almost 4 percentage points. Guess it worked out okay for the Raptors.
his eFG% actually was better. His ts% went down because Giannis was awful from the line shooting an awful 54.3% well below his 77% season average (which has absolutely nothing to do with the Raptors defense).  In other words the Raptors didmt stop Giannis at all.

Yeah, I am sure his per 36 numbers being down had nothing to do with the Raptors defense. Certainly must have been a cold he had or something. I am sure the only reason his team lost was his team and had zero to do with him.

Of course he is better than a guy with a ring, finals MVP, and is better at defense than a multiple first team defense award winner, two defensive player of the year award winner, and a guy that was able to take LBJ out of a the finals like no one else.

Seriously, I have to wonder if you aren't just playing devils advocate here, because this take is just too hot.

There is simply no way to see each of their careers to this point, and declare Giannis better. None.

Might he be better eventually? Possibly.

But now? Guy can't even take his team to a top 4 seed in a conference that is garbage outside of the top 3 teams.

I cannot disagree with you enough.

TP. I agree. Giannis is great, but is he better than KL right now? Nah don't think so. Also you guys say KL is a system player, but when he's the only scoring in the playoffs, there's usually very small share of players who can put up his numbers while being a defensive stalwart. Also those who think Giannis is a better defender, clearly aren't even looking from the eyetest. He's great at weak side help defense and going for the block, but you cannot tell me Giannis is a better defender than KL. Come on that's foolish.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: celticsclay on January 11, 2018, 03:40:21 AM
Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
How'd that go for the Raptors last year?
Ummmm, yeah. The Raptors won 4-2 and Giannis' per 36 numbers were down regular season vs playoffs and his TS% dropped almost 4 percentage points. Guess it worked out okay for the Raptors.
his eFG% actually was better. His ts% went down because Giannis was awful from the line shooting an awful 54.3% well below his 77% season average (which has absolutely nothing to do with the Raptors defense).  In other words the Raptors didmt stop Giannis at all.

Yeah, I am sure his per 36 numbers being down had nothing to do with the Raptors defense. Certainly must have been a cold he had or something. I am sure the only reason his team lost was his team and had zero to do with him.

Of course he is better than a guy with a ring, finals MVP, and is better at defense than a multiple first team defense award winner, two defensive player of the year award winner, and a guy that was able to take LBJ out of a the finals like no one else.

Seriously, I have to wonder if you aren't just playing devils advocate here, because this take is just too hot.

There is simply no way to see each of their careers to this point, and declare Giannis better. None.

Might he be better eventually? Possibly.

But now? Guy can't even take his team to a top 4 seed in a conference that is garbage outside of the top 3 teams.

I cannot disagree with you enough.

TP. I agree. Giannis is great, but is he better than KL right now? Nah don't think so. Also you guys say KL is a system player, but when he's the only scoring in the playoffs, there's usually very small share of players who can put up his numbers while being a defensive stalwart. Also those who think Giannis is a better defender, clearly aren't even looking from the eyetest. He's great at weak side help defense and going for the block, but you cannot tell me Giannis is a better defender than KL. Come on that's foolish.

Thank you. I found the comments arguing giannis was as good as kl at defense particularly humorous
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Moranis on February 05, 2018, 08:49:57 AM
Giannis for defensive player of the year is gaining a lot traction nationally.  Zach Lowe (of ESPN) in particular has been spouting that drum for a couple of months now. 
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: Androslav on February 05, 2018, 09:03:20 AM
Giannis for defensive player of the year is gaining a lot traction nationally.  Zach Lowe (of ESPN) in particular has been spouting that drum for a couple of months now.
That award, along with defensive teams, comes after a year or two of delay.
Giannis was always a great defensive player IMO, 1-5.
Title: Re: What point does a player become 'injury,' prone? Kawhi partial tear in shoulder
Post by: gouki88 on February 05, 2018, 09:11:35 AM
Giannis shoots 66% of his shots from inside 10 feet. He shoots 76% on FGA from 0-3 feet. On all other shot distances he shoots less than 40%

Pretty predictable player offensively. Pretty poor offensively if he isn't with 5-10 feet of the basket.
And yet he has been doing this for years and is only getting more efficient and better at it.  And since when it is a problem for a player to maximize efficiency.
Makes it easy come playoff times to make the player much less efficient and so hurt his team's chances in the playoffs.
How'd that go for the Raptors last year?
Ummmm, yeah. The Raptors won 4-2 and Giannis' per 36 numbers were down regular season vs playoffs and his TS% dropped almost 4 percentage points. Guess it worked out okay for the Raptors.
his eFG% actually was better. His ts% went down because Giannis was awful from the line shooting an awful 54.3% well below his 77% season average (which has absolutely nothing to do with the Raptors defense).  In other words the Raptors didmt stop Giannis at all.

Yeah, I am sure his per 36 numbers being down had nothing to do with the Raptors defense. Certainly must have been a cold he had or something. I am sure the only reason his team lost was his team and had zero to do with him.

Of course he is better than a guy with a ring, finals MVP, and is better at defense than a multiple first team defense award winner, two defensive player of the year award winner, and a guy that was able to take LBJ out of a the finals like no one else.

Seriously, I have to wonder if you aren't just playing devils advocate here, because this take is just too hot.

There is simply no way to see each of their careers to this point, and declare Giannis better. None.

Might he be better eventually? Possibly.

But now? Guy can't even take his team to a top 4 seed in a conference that is garbage outside of the top 3 teams.

I cannot disagree with you enough.

TP. I agree. Giannis is great, but is he better than KL right now? Nah don't think so. Also you guys say KL is a system player, but when he's the only scoring in the playoffs, there's usually very small share of players who can put up his numbers while being a defensive stalwart. Also those who think Giannis is a better defender, clearly aren't even looking from the eyetest. He's great at weak side help defense and going for the block, but you cannot tell me Giannis is a better defender than KL. Come on that's foolish.

Thank you. I found the comments arguing giannis was as good as kl at defense particularly humorous
Yeah, that’s hilariously wrong. Giannis is a pretty overrated defender