Author Topic: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?  (Read 27628 times)

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Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2012, 11:36:57 AM »

Offline CelticHooligan3

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My favorite thing about Stockton is how badly he got under the skin of one Dennis Rodman. People forget this fact, but Stockton was by in large considered the dirtiest cheapest players in the league in his day.

If you watch some of those old games and him specifically you can certainly see why.

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2012, 11:38:27 AM »

Offline Kane3387

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I always thought of Stockton as always great but rarely spectacular. He was very consistent, remarkably so. But while people complain that Rondo doesn't always find that extra gear in the playoffs, Stockton didn't really have that extra gear.


If Rondo consistently played at Stockton's level, I don't think anybody would be complaining.  You don't need an extra gear when you're John Stockton.

I mean, Michael Jordan didn't have an extra gear.  Larry Bird didn't, either.  These are guys who were just consistently great, night in and night out.  Everyone has poor games, but 9 out of 10 games, you knew what you were going to get from Stockton or Jordan or Bird.

With Rondo, for his career he's been such a mixed bag.  What you call an extra gear is what separates him from being an all-time great.  If he could play consistently at a superstar level, nobody would be calling him out.  The good news is, Rondo seems to be achieving that night in, night out consistency recently.

THIS IS EXACTLY RIGHT IMO


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Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2012, 11:43:20 AM »

Offline BballTim

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 That extra gear is the main reason that Thomas has rings and Stockton doesn't.

I don't think that's accurate.  I'd say it has more to do with the qualities of the supporting casts and the fact that Jordan hadn't quite reached his prime when he met the Pistons in the playoffs, whereas he was firmly in his prime against the Jazz.  Thomas' season and playoff averages are virtually identical in the Pistons' championship seasons.

  Thomas was frequently the best player on the court, much more often than Stockton. He could also take over games in ways that Stockton rarely did.


Okay, so is your argument now that Thomas is better than Stockton?  Because that seems to be what you're arguing.  That's different than having a higher gear.

  I'd say that depends on your definition of better. Was Thomas capable of playing better than Stockton was? Absolutely. Was he as consistent as Stockton? No.

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2012, 12:02:28 PM »

Offline OmarSekou

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Stockton is a prototype PG. He did everything at a high level, everything. I was thinking of who he could be compared to in today's game and maybe Deron Williams?

He's like the Wes Welker of PGs. Not the biggest, not the fastest, not the flashiest...but he'll outwork you or outmaneuver you every time. You can say he wasn't an athlete, but he was perfect for the type of game he played.
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Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2012, 12:02:35 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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It's probably just me but I don't see Stockton as the best of all time.  One of the best, sure.  I think his assist totals were higher than most due to the pace Utah played at. 

I think he was certainly a great PG but if Magic hadn't retired when he had, which he was still playing like he was in his prime, Magic would have the all-time assist record and be ahead of Stockton. 


Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2012, 12:13:52 PM »

Online bdm860

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While I hate the "he had Malone" argument.  One thing that probably did help a lot is how Stockton and Malone's careers lined up.

Look at a guy like Rondo at the start of his career, playing with Pierce, Allen, and Garnett at the end of their careers.  Rondo would probably be putting up even better numbers if Pierce was 25/26 (or Allen or Garnett was 25/26).

Or it could be like that right now in OKC with Westbrook and Durant (if Westbrook was a pass first guy).  Same age, drafted one year apart.  They should be hitting their primes at the same time.  This is what happened with Stockton and Malone.

Also not only did the Stockton/Malone combo line up perfectly career-wise, but they both had incredible health.

In 18 seasons together, they played in 1,422 games together, out of total of 1,444.  That's 98.5%.  Rondo has missed more games over the last season and a half than Stockton missed in his entire 19 year career.  Same thing with Pierce (or Allen or Garnett...).

Stockton basically never missed a game (over 19 seasons), and the primary scorer he played with never missed a game either for the 18 years they played together.  That definitely helps.

You hate the he had malone argument yet sum it up to a tee.
John Stockton Played with the 2nd leading scorer in NBA history through their primes and most of his career, which one helped the other more? tough to say
Honestly through his first 3+ seasons his stats looked nearly identical to rondos through his first 3+ but then took a jump rondo hasnt quite taken yet after that...he was also expected to score more and had the best big man finisher the game has almost ever seen to pass to in his freakish athletic prime

See I think you're getting into the territory I don't like.

What I hate about the "he had Malone" theory is that John Stockton would have been a Hall of Fame player, one of the greatest point guards ever, and the all time assists and steals leader whether or not he played with Karl Malone and ran the pick and roll.

People make it sound like all you have to do is play with a dominant scorer and you'll automatically lead the league in assists.  Did anybody who ever played with Shaq ever come close to leading the league in assists?  How about Olajuwon, Ewing, or David Robinson? If it's that easy the guys who played with Wilt Chamberlain should have all the assist record.  Guys can't even seem to lead the league once with a dominant scorer, yet Stockton did it every year. 

Now to be in first by such an incredibly large margin, yes playing with Malone for so long, and neither missing a game helped that.  But even if Malone wasn't there, Stockton would be the all-time assist leader, it's just that guys like Kidd and Nash would be a little closer to breaking the record instead of still 4,000 and 6,000 assists away.

Magic - greatest point guard ever.
Stockton - greatest pure point guard ever.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 12:20:50 PM by bdm860 »

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Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2012, 12:16:45 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Something else about Stockton - he's probably the greatest screener in history from the guard position.  One of those minor things everyone forgets about but is vital to running a halfcourt offense.

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2012, 12:31:48 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I think he was certainly a great PG but if Magic hadn't retired when he had, which he was still playing like he was in his prime, Magic would have the all-time assist record and be ahead of Stockton. 

I don't think that's true.  If we assume that Magic plays four more seasons until he's age 36, and if we assume he averages a very robust 950 assists per year, he's still around 1800 assists behind Stockton.

In terms of pace, Stockton is the all-time leader in assist percentage, which accounts for pace.  Also, it's not like the Jazz played at a tremendously quick pace.  Look at 1989:  the Jazz ranked 22nd out of 25 teams in pace, but Stockton still led the league in assists with 13.6 per game.  The next season the Jazz played at an even slower pace, and Stockton averaged even more assists (14.5).  By the mid- to late-nineties, the Jazz were playing at an even slower pace than the current Celtics.

I'm not arguing that Stockton was better than Magic, but he was an amazing player in his own right.


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Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2012, 12:49:32 PM »

Offline Jeff

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just my $.02

I don't really care where exactly he ranks, but he was clearly one of the great point guards of all time - he was amazingly efficient

he didn't have the flair of a Magic or Kidd but he just got the stinking job done day in day out

he's the Duncan in the Duncan vs. KG comparisons (without the titles)

much much respect for that guy
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Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2012, 01:05:03 PM »

Offline TitleMaster

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People make it sound like all you have to do is play with a dominant scorer and you'll automatically lead the league in assists.  Did anybody who ever played with Shaq ever come close to leading the league in assists?  How about Olajuwon, Ewing, or David Robinson? If it's that easy the guys who played with Wilt Chamberlain should have all the assist record.  Guys can't even seem to lead the league once with a dominant scorer, yet Stockton did it every year.  

Well ... here's the counterargument to the above & that's that neither Malone nor Hornacek could create their own shot. Along with Stockton, those three players made up most of the Jazz's total points in any game. Thus, in terms of being a pure PF scorer, Malone was overrated. The average big man bumps 'n grinds and then, gets his points (i.e. layup, dunk, fadeaway, jump hook) or gets to the line. There are no assists, when a majority of one's points are earned that way.

You could attempt to say the same for let's say the original 80s C's big three but then again, neither Bird nor DJ were world record holders in assists either & thus, the big three did, in fact, generate their own points but within the flow of good overall passing game.

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2012, 01:06:49 PM »

Offline RyNye

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Stockton is a prototype PG. He did everything at a high level, everything. I was thinking of who he could be compared to in today's game and maybe Deron Williams?

?

I don't see a single similarity between the two except that they play the same position and are good. Deron is a scorer, first and foremost, who isn't bad at passing the ball and other facets of the game. Stockton was a passer, first and foremost, who wasn't terrible at shooting and other facets of the game.

---------------------

Anyway, the way I see it with Hall of Famers, is that once you get into the Top 5 basketball players of all time it doesn't really matter where they rank. For example, when you are talking about Dominique Wilkins and Clyde Drexler, for example, you can make a lot of arguments one way or the other. But once you get to talking about, say, Michael Jordan vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar ... it's a lot harder to really say anything except "Both those guys were really, really, really, really good." That's how I see it with Stockton vs Magic.

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2012, 01:46:17 PM »

Offline oldmanspeaks

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The comment that Stockton was only an average shooter is ridiculous. He was one of the all time shooters. He was an average "scorer" simply for the fact he passed up so many shots as he was always looking to pass. In fact as an old man who watched countless players he is the only top player that I thought should have shot the ball more. He understood the game as well as anyone who ever played. Magic and Rondo can make more "special" plays and Isiah could score more but no one was as consistent as Stockton. If he had any weaknesses he was only a very good defender, not a great one. (neither was Magic nor Isiah as they had someone else take the toughest guard). And he didn't take over games because he was unwilling to become a big scorer. Let me put it this way-stockton could make his teammates look better than anyone other than possibly Magic.

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2012, 01:57:12 PM »

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I think he was certainly a great PG but if Magic hadn't retired when he had, which he was still playing like he was in his prime, Magic would have the all-time assist record and be ahead of Stockton. 

I don't think that's true.  If we assume that Magic plays four more seasons until he's age 36, and if we assume he averages a very robust 950 assists per year, he's still around 1800 assists behind Stockton.
Basketball-Prospectus.com did some projections on what Magic Johnson's stats might have been had he not been forced to retire. Fun read if anyone is interested.

Link -- article also has a link in the piece to Jordan's stats if he hadn't retired. 

On the assist totals, they decided that Magic would finish close but behind Stockton.

Quote
Naturally, the extra stats make a big difference in Johnson’s career numbers. I project him finishing with 15,498 career assists, which would put him second in NBA history, just behind John Stockton (15,806).

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2012, 02:04:38 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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The comment that Stockton was only an average shooter is ridiculous. He was one of the all time shooters. He was an average "scorer" simply for the fact he passed up so many shots as he was always looking to pass. In fact as an old man who watched countless players he is the only top player that I thought should have shot the ball more. He understood the game as well as anyone who ever played. Magic and Rondo can make more "special" plays and Isiah could score more but no one was as consistent as Stockton. If he had any weaknesses he was only a very good defender, not a great one. (neither was Magic nor Isiah as they had someone else take the toughest guard). And he didn't take over games because he was unwilling to become a big scorer. Let me put it this way-stockton could make his teammates look better than anyone other than possibly Magic.

Stockton was a five-time All-Defense 2nd team player, in an era where the competition included Jordan, Payton, Dumars, Blaylock etc.

He is also 6th all-time in steals per game. That has limitations (Iverson is 7th), but it is what it is. For you advanced metrics fans, he finished in the top 10 in defensive win shares 4 times. The league included some pretty good defenders at the time (Olajuwon, Rpbinson, Pippen, Jordan, Ewing, Rodman, Payton...etc.)

He was an excellent defender.

And I'll second the claim that he was an outstanding shooter. He was in the top 10 in shooting percentage 6 times. For comparison, in the 27 years since Stockton's first in the league, a guard has been in the top 10 a total of 6 other times.

Stockton has more top 10 finishes than every other guard in the league combined over that period. Tony Parker has finished in the top 10 once. Nash, once.

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2012, 02:36:59 PM »

Offline ACF

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Stockton basically never missed a game (over 19 seasons)

Yeah, Stockton only missed 4 games in the 1989-90 season and 18 games in the 1997-98 season.

In every other season he played in every game. Crazy. The man was a warrior.


http://www.nba.com/historical/playerfile/index.html?player=john_stockton