Ray Allen for Diaw and Barbosa

[Who]

would you who? im not so sure id be super high on it as PHX.

for one, there about to be real, real old. Nash and shaq aren't getting any younger. barbosa is a solid 6th man, and could be thier SG of the future.

I don't see why they'd be chomping at the bit to get even older and lose 2 prospects thier reportedly quite high on.

the pick is ncie, but they have to wait 2 years for it.

as i said, if ray was expiring, i think it changes things alot, but they don't want to get older for 2 years of amare's time there.

Why not get older?

You think Diaw and Barbosa are going to be the reasons why Phoenix will still be contenders after Nash, Raja, Grant and Shaq retire? Is a trio of Amare-Barbosa-Diaw really that good? No, they're not.

Phoenix is desperate for a talented wing and an extra 17+ppg option rather than two 12ppg options? They need another go-to scorer, not complementary scorers, in order to diversify their offense. Ray Allen is exactly what Phoenix want and need to add.

In terms of salary cap flexibility it's a huge win for Phoenix too. Ray's contract lasts two more years which is exactly as long as Shaq's deal lasts, exactly as long as Nash's deal lasts, and exactly as long as Raja's lasts. That leaves them with only one contract of note and that's Amare Stoudemire. That gives them the flexibility to rebuild their entire squad in one single offseason. That's brilliant.

[crownsy]

another thign to consider is, barring a breakdown, which with the way ray stays in shape i don't see happening, we gain several advantages to keeping him a year.

- We get a HOF'er at the 2 in our quest to repeat

- Ray will have massive trade value to a western team in particular. think about it, the western teams will probley be bunched again and lookign to get over the top. for the low, low price of some picks and a rising star you get a HOF bound SG with an expiring contract.

that will look very attractive to any western team.

so, no movement on ray this year, possable next year if we need to shore up for the future.

[celticben]

That trade blows.  We have to keep Ray.  The guy had a great season considering the changes he had to make to his game- fewer shots and better defense.  I hate how there are so many posters on this board who are/were ready to put Ray out to pasture.  He may not have played well in the first two rounds of the playoffs, but in the money rounds where the conference and league championships were decided- he stepped up to the challenge.  We need to keep him until his contract has a year left or wait until he comes off the cap.  Danny will make the right moves.

[crownsy]

would you who? im not so sure id be super high on it as PHX.

for one, there about to be real, real old. Nash and shaq aren't getting any younger. barbosa is a solid 6th man, and could be thier SG of the future.

I don't see why they'd be chomping at the bit to get even older and lose 2 prospects thier reportedly quite high on.

the pick is ncie, but they have to wait 2 years for it.

as i said, if ray was expiring, i think it changes things alot, but they don't want to get older for 2 years of amare's time there.

Why not get older?

You think Diaw and Barbosa are going to be the reasons why Phoenix will still be contenders after Nash, Raja, Grant and Shaq retire? Is a trio of Amare-Barbosa-Diaw really that good? No, they're not.

Phoenix is desperate for a talented wing and an extra 17+ppg option rather than two 12ppg options? They need another go-to scorer, not complementary scorers, in order to diversify their offense. Ray Allen is exactly what Phoenix want and need to add.

In terms of salary cap flexibility it's a huge win for Phoenix too. Ray's contract lasts two more years which is exactly as long as Shaq's deal lasts, exactly as long as Nash's deal lasts, and exactly as long as Raja's lasts. That leaves them with only one contract of note and that's Amare Stoudemire. That gives them the flexibility to rebuild their entire squad in one single offseason. That's brilliant.

i stand corrcted, didn't realize they had shaq and nash coming off in 2 years as well.

still don't think they'd do it. we may not value those 2 highly, but phx thinks barbosa is a superstar in the making from all reports.

But, considering thier contracts, i see why they'd jump on it. I'd still keep ray till his expiring year if i was danny though.

[celticmaestro]

personally i think it's a bad deal for both teams for various reasons. worse for us though.

[ram]

In addition to myself, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett would get very angry if this trade was done.

Red's first rule: Don't break up a championship team. Red did this twice by trading Paul Silas and Gerald Henderson. The Silas trade (mostly about money) was a huge mistake. The GH trade probably would have worked out well but...

[Who]

would you who? im not so sure id be super high on it as PHX.

for one, there about to be real, real old. Nash and shaq aren't getting any younger. barbosa is a solid 6th man, and could be thier SG of the future.

I don't see why they'd be chomping at the bit to get even older and lose 2 prospects thier reportedly quite high on.

the pick is ncie, but they have to wait 2 years for it.

as i said, if ray was expiring, i think it changes things alot, but they don't want to get older for 2 years of amare's time there.

Why not get older?

You think Diaw and Barbosa are going to be the reasons why Phoenix will still be contenders after Nash, Raja, Grant and Shaq retire? Is a trio of Amare-Barbosa-Diaw really that good? No, they're not.

Phoenix is desperate for a talented wing and an extra 17+ppg option rather than two 12ppg options? They need another go-to scorer, not complementary scorers, in order to diversify their offense. Ray Allen is exactly what Phoenix want and need to add.

In terms of salary cap flexibility it's a huge win for Phoenix too. Ray's contract lasts two more years which is exactly as long as Shaq's deal lasts, exactly as long as Nash's deal lasts, and exactly as long as Raja's lasts. That leaves them with only one contract of note and that's Amare Stoudemire. That gives them the flexibility to rebuild their entire squad in one single offseason. That's brilliant.

i stand corrcted, didn't realize they had shaq and nash coming off in 2 years as well.

still don't think they'd do it. we may not value those 2 highly, but phx thinks barbosa is a superstar in the making from all reports.

But, considering thier contracts, i see why they'd jump on it. I'd still keep ray till his expiring year if i was danny though.

Phoenix don't consider him a superstar or of being on the road to stardom. They consider him a good complementary piece. A very good 6th man.

Diaw was the one the had high hopes for but I think they've evaporated over the past two seasons. They realize he won't be that star player now.

Steve Kerr would definitely move the two players for a star wing. That's why he's shopping both of them for a month - for a new wing. All the rumours have them nowhere near a player of Ray's ability.

[td450]

I really like and respect Ray, but we'd be crazy not to do this. Barbosa is almost certain to be better than Ray next year, and you get younger. He still gives you 3 point shooting, but he's a rocket, and a strong defender. He also provides backup point. The idea of him and Rondo is ridiculous. They would be the fastest backcourt in human history. Diaw is a nice bonus too.

[papa shuttlesworth]

Barbosa has potential.  I think that someday he can grow into a player who can average 17-18 points a game as the third/fourth option on a team, shoot 40% from 3 point range every season (and even in a postseason while going through a prolonged shooting slump), teach younger players about hard work, professionalism and off-season/pregame work (changing a team's culture as much as a guy defending in a panther stance and headbutting the basket before games), be a Finals MVP runner up, become one of top ten career free throw percentage, and be one of the classiest players of his generation.

When you see potential like that, you trade for it, no matter what you give up.

[oldmanspeaks]

Isn't the knock on Diaw and Barbosa is that they aren't accountable and continue to do their own thing. That doesn't fit well with a displined defense like the Celtics use. Perkins would be fouled out in one quarter if the other guys don't do their jobs. D&B could easily be "potential" guys their entire careers and Ray Allen is the real deal for at least one more season and maybe two. (he might play longer but will probably not be an elite player by then).

[illantari]

Barbosa has potential.  I think that someday he can grow into a player who can average 17-18 points a game as the third/fourth option on a team, shoot 40% from 3 point range every season (and even in a postseason while going through a prolonged shooting slump), teach younger players about hard work, professionalism and off-season/pregame work (changing a team's culture as much as a guy defending in a panther stance and headbutting the basket before games), be a Finals MVP runner up, become one of top ten career free throw percentage, and be one of the classiest players of his generation.

When you see potential like that, you trade for it, no matter what you give up.

Hey, wait a minute....

Anyway, I tend to agree with those who think this might make more sense next year, PROVIDED that Ray slows down (for us) and becomes an expiring contract (for PHX).

For right now, the only advantage I would see from this trade would be that we would have the most awesomely named back court in the NBA with Rondo and Barbosa.

[td450]

Barbosa has potential.  I think that someday he can grow into a player who can average 17-18 points a game as the third/fourth option on a team, shoot 40% from 3 point range every season (and even in a postseason while going through a prolonged shooting slump), teach younger players about hard work, professionalism and off-season/pregame work (changing a team's culture as much as a guy defending in a panther stance and headbutting the basket before games), be a Finals MVP runner up, become one of top ten career free throw percentage, and be one of the classiest players of his generation.

When you see potential like that, you trade for it, no matter what you give up.

Barbosa is a career 40% 3 pt shooter too. He averages about the same number of points now, not in the future. He's one inch shorter, but he's an excellent defender, one of the fastest guys in the league and he's 6 years younger. If you've ever watched him play, he is virtually unstoppable because of his speed. Ray is a true star  and a class act, but he will be 33 next year.

[papa shuttlesworth]

Barbosa is a career 40% 3 pt shooter too. He averages about the same number of points now, not in the future. He's one inch shorter, but he's an excellent defender, one of the fastest guys in the league and he's 6 years younger. If you've ever watched him play, he is virtually unstoppable because of his speed. Ray is a true star  and a class act, but he will be 33 next year.

For the record, I do like Barbosa.  He is the perfect 6th man, able to change the speed of the game, score at will and play some defense.  I think Diaw is decent.  He benefits from the Suns' system, but he'd probably be good on any team, excluding the Hawks.

I could see how this trade could work for both teams, both in the present and future, financially and in games.  But I don't like it.

This group, with at least a little help from Ray, just won a championship in their first season together when the plan was for them to contend in year 3 or maybe year 2.  I think the trade Ray Allen calls are a little early.  Why not trade Pierce, Rondo and Garnett too because they might get old someday and there are young studs out there on other teams that might put up similar numbers someday.

[Fan from VT]

Some of this was already discussed here:

Here was one post I made at the time:

At this point i prefer sentimentality as well. I certainly would tend to not trade Ray to a team he wouldn't enjoy.

However, others have made good points, and it's a discussion worth having. Ray definitely dropped off a bit this year, and really looked ragged in the playoffs until the finals. With that finals performance, his stock may be a bit artificially inflated. We got very lucky with injuries to our stars this year, and we may be thinner next year as brown and cassell leave, and probably one of house/posey as well. Age wise we are similar to where the spurs are now (just with one title to their 4), and they've really started to look slow; the consensus is they may not have balanced bringing up youth while contending. It's a very tricky question to figure out when to cut loose a great player, well liked by teammates, in order to think a couple years ahead and avoid sticking with a guy once he's over the hill and has diminished production and trade value.

Turning my eyes to the general following of the upcoming draft, I was intrigued by this nugget from Chad Ford:

The Phoenix Suns have put Leandro Barbosa and Boris Diaw on the table in attempts to either move up in the draft or secure another veteran to play alongside Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire and Shaquille O'Neal.

"I think our needs are pretty clear," one Suns insider told ESPN.com. "We can't ask Grant Hill to play 40 minutes a night, and Barbosa isn't really a point guard."

Considering that Allen is still considered a better individual talent than either diaw or barbosa, and considering that the latter two are under contract a year longer than Allen, I was thinking:

Barbosa, Diaw, #15

for

Allen, #30

This would knock about 2 mil off payroll (4 mill with tax), give us a wider spread of contracts, instead of 3 max's and small ones, would satisfy the pg minutes rondo can't play, would allow us a better chance of nabbing a useful rookie, would make the C's younger, and provide an interesting athletic and versatile player who can defend and likes to pass the ball in diaw.

From Phoenix's side, they are all in with Nash and Shaq. They'd love Ray and his distance shooting, and Ray might enjoy playing with those two.

I don't know that I would do it this year, but the pick swap would help. There are really two ways to think:
We had a GREAT team this year, let's keep it together and see what vets want to piggy back with our crew, especially since we might be even better in the playoffs because of more than 1 season of playing as a unit.

OR

Ray Allen is an aging shooting guard who did show an overall dropoff this year, especially before the finals. What is the general opinion of him if we lose game 7 in cleveland, or lose detroit, and he never gets the chance to redeem himself in the finals? His stock may not get higher than right now, and there's no guarantees about his future production.

[Mr October]

If I'm Boston or Phoenix, I'd rather have Ray Allen. One slightly fading all star is way more valuable then 2 guys who are between starter/6th-man quality.

Diaw and Barbosa have really nice moments in the regular season. But their skill set doesn't translate very well to playoff basketball.

No to this trade idea.