Celtics are unpredictable without Irving

[KGBirdBias]

Don't come at me,  it just needed to be said. 🤷🏾‍♂️ LOL

I like Kyrie and we need him to close games, but let's be honest the team is more unpredictable, more cohesive on the court without him. It just a fact that teams don't know who will go for 25, who will get the hot hand and its seems that everyone is on a string when Kyrie is out. Everyone tends to stand and watch him when he goes into his bag.

The answer isn't to trade him. The answer is for everyone to get off before it's Kyrie time in the 4th.

[Roy H.]

Why doesn’t any of this show up when Kyrie is on the bench?

[CelticsElite]

Why doesn’t any of this show up when Kyrie is on the bench?

I agree with you for the most part but couldn’t you say it did show up last year in the playoffs?

[Moranis]

Why doesn’t any of this show up when Kyrie is on the bench?

Not really enough time to develop roles.  Rozier, in particular, plays much better when he starts a game and plays 30 minutes. 

[The Oracle]

Why doesn’t any of this show up when Kyrie is on the bench?

I agree with you for the most part but couldn’t you say it did show up last year in the playoffs?

It really didn't show up in last years playoffs.  The C's were 1-7 on the road.  Without the home court advantage that was provided to that depleted team that entered the playoffs the C's likely never get out of the 1st round. If that team plays a series against that Bucks team 10 times they probably lose half the time even with home court same with Philly.  No matter who that C's squad faced in those playoffs they would not have been heavy favorites against anyone and would have been significant dogs against many teams.

[nickagneta]

I think I should just go ahead and merge this with triboy's thread. It's basically going to argue the same points and be the same thread. But let's wait and see.

If it turns out that way, I am merging them, though.

[Roy H.]

Why doesn’t any of this show up when Kyrie is on the bench?

Not really enough time to develop roles.  Rozier, in particular, plays much better when he starts a game and plays 30 minutes.

That doesn't suggest that the Celtics are somehow better or less predictable, though.  It just means that Rozier isn't capable of making proper adjustments.

The top seven guys in the rotation are all playing 26+ minutes per game.  All of those guys other than Marcus are getting at least 9.4 FGAs per game.  There's plenty of time for guys to assert themselves either alongside Kyrie, or during the 25% of the game when he's on the bench.

[SparzWizard]

The Celtics needed a PG instead of paying hip-injured IT4 the brinks truck.

So they went out and traded for Irving, a better PG.

[Rosco917]

I was thinking the same thing last night. When KI is unavailable they play with much more freedom and flow. The ball moves around because they don't have the "bailout player" to save the possession. They understand they need to find the best option to score. Hence the reason the assists were so high last night. The defense gets stingy because everyone feels involved.

One player who benefits is surely Jaylen Brown. His confidence rises, he's not scared to make mistakes. He's not a complementary player with Kyrie on the floor just looking to make the perfect decision. Without KI and Sr. he's one of the main offensive options. 

On the flip side, the Mavericks are a terrible road team.

I feel the trick is to play this way with Kyrie and Company available.

Also, having Hayward looking better didn't hurt either, the guy really is a heady basketball player able to play any role the team needs.

[nickagneta]

I was thinking the same thing last night. When KI is unavailable they play with much more freedom and flow. The ball moves around because they don't have the "bailout player" to save the possession. They understand they need to find the best option to score. Hence the reason the assists were so high last night. The defense gets stingy because everyone feels involved.

One player who benefits is surely Jaylen Brown. His confidence rises, he's not scared to make mistakes. He's not a complementary player with Kyrie on the floor just looking to make the perfect decision. Without KI and Sr. he's one of the main offensive options. 

On the flip side, the Mavericks are a terrible road team.

I feel the trick is to play this way with Kyrie and Company available.

Also, having Hayward looking better didn't hurt either, the guy really is a heady basketball player able to play any role the team needs.

There is literally dozens of games this year where Boston played with great ball movement, with other players playing with confidence and the team clicking. All happening with Kyrie playing.

[Roy H.]

I was thinking the same thing last night. When KI is unavailable they play with much more freedom and flow. The ball moves around because they don't have the "bailout player" to save the possession. They understand they need to find the best option to score. Hence the reason the assists were so high last night. The defense gets stingy because everyone feels involved.

One player who benefits is surely Jaylen Brown. His confidence rises, he's not scared to make mistakes. He's not a complementary player with Kyrie on the floor just looking to make the perfect decision. Without KI and Sr. he's one of the main offensive options. 

On the flip side, the Mavericks are a terrible road team.

I feel the trick is to play this way with Kyrie and Company available.

Also, having Hayward looking better didn't hurt either, the guy really is a heady basketball player able to play any role the team needs.

There is literally dozens of games this year where Boston played with great ball movement, with other players playing with confidence and the team clicking. All happening with Kyrie playing.

Yeah, and the “Jaylen can’t play with Kyrie” thing ignores last year as well.  12 out of Jaylen’s 16 games where he scored 20+ points were with Kyrie playing.  JB was awesome in the playoffs, but that was largely due to increased touches rather than Kyrie holding him back.

[Moranis]

I was thinking the same thing last night. When KI is unavailable they play with much more freedom and flow. The ball moves around because they don't have the "bailout player" to save the possession. They understand they need to find the best option to score. Hence the reason the assists were so high last night. The defense gets stingy because everyone feels involved.

One player who benefits is surely Jaylen Brown. His confidence rises, he's not scared to make mistakes. He's not a complementary player with Kyrie on the floor just looking to make the perfect decision. Without KI and Sr. he's one of the main offensive options. 

On the flip side, the Mavericks are a terrible road team.

I feel the trick is to play this way with Kyrie and Company available.

Also, having Hayward looking better didn't hurt either, the guy really is a heady basketball player able to play any role the team needs.

There is literally dozens of games this year where Boston played with great ball movement, with other players playing with confidence and the team clicking. All happening with Kyrie playing.

Yeah, and the “Jaylen can’t play with Kyrie” thing ignores last year as well.  12 out of Jaylen’s 16 games where he scored 20+ points were with Kyrie playing.  JB was awesome in the playoffs, but that was largely due to increased touches rather than Kyrie holding him back.

Isn't that sort of the point though i.e. Brown is better when he has the ball more.  Rozier is clearly better when he plays more and has the ball more.  Hayward can facilitate more when he has the higher usage.  Tatum gets around the same amount of touches so his play doesn't change much. 

[10610786d]

I was thinking the same thing last night. When KI is unavailable they play with much more freedom and flow. The ball moves around because they don't have the "bailout player" to save the possession. They understand they need to find the best option to score. Hence the reason the assists were so high last night. The defense gets stingy because everyone feels involved.

One player who benefits is surely Jaylen Brown. His confidence rises, he's not scared to make mistakes. He's not a complementary player with Kyrie on the floor just looking to make the perfect decision. Without KI and Sr. he's one of the main offensive options. 

On the flip side, the Mavericks are a terrible road team.

I feel the trick is to play this way with Kyrie and Company available.

Also, having Hayward looking better didn't hurt either, the guy really is a heady basketball player able to play any role the team needs.

There is literally dozens of games this year where Boston played with great ball movement, with other players playing with confidence and the team clicking. All happening with Kyrie playing.

Yeah, and the “Jaylen can’t play with Kyrie” thing ignores last year as well.  12 out of Jaylen’s 16 games where he scored 20+ points were with Kyrie playing.  JB was awesome in the playoffs, but that was largely due to increased touches rather than Kyrie holding him back.

Isn't that sort of the point though i.e. Brown is better when he has the ball more.  Rozier is clearly better when he plays more and has the ball more.  Hayward can facilitate more when he has the higher usage.  Tatum gets around the same amount of touches so his play doesn't change much.

This problem is way more pronounced with the 76ers than this team.

Kyrie and Hayward are both shooters, Jaylen has been becoming a better shooter, and Tatum is also a good shooter. Much like the Warriors, in theory there should be less diminishing returns with the Celts given many of our players are off-ball threats (though on a significantly lesser scale than the Warriors), not to mention they're also legitimate threats with the ball for drives to the hoop (unlike Klay and Draymond).

[Moranis]

I was thinking the same thing last night. When KI is unavailable they play with much more freedom and flow. The ball moves around because they don't have the "bailout player" to save the possession. They understand they need to find the best option to score. Hence the reason the assists were so high last night. The defense gets stingy because everyone feels involved.

One player who benefits is surely Jaylen Brown. His confidence rises, he's not scared to make mistakes. He's not a complementary player with Kyrie on the floor just looking to make the perfect decision. Without KI and Sr. he's one of the main offensive options. 

On the flip side, the Mavericks are a terrible road team.

I feel the trick is to play this way with Kyrie and Company available.

Also, having Hayward looking better didn't hurt either, the guy really is a heady basketball player able to play any role the team needs.

There is literally dozens of games this year where Boston played with great ball movement, with other players playing with confidence and the team clicking. All happening with Kyrie playing.

Yeah, and the “Jaylen can’t play with Kyrie” thing ignores last year as well.  12 out of Jaylen’s 16 games where he scored 20+ points were with Kyrie playing.  JB was awesome in the playoffs, but that was largely due to increased touches rather than Kyrie holding him back.

Isn't that sort of the point though i.e. Brown is better when he has the ball more.  Rozier is clearly better when he plays more and has the ball more.  Hayward can facilitate more when he has the higher usage.  Tatum gets around the same amount of touches so his play doesn't change much.

This problem is way more pronounced with the 76ers than this team.

Kyrie and Hayward are both shooters, Jaylen has been becoming a better shooter, and Tatum is also a good shooter. Much like the Warriors, in theory there should be less diminishing returns with the Celts given many of our players are off-ball threats (though on a significantly lesser scale than the Warriors), not to mention they're also legitimate threats with the ball for drives to the hoop (unlike Klay and Draymond).

No the premise of the thread is that playing the Celtics without Irving is more difficult because you just don't know who to game plan for.  On any given night any one of like 6 people can realistically go off.  With Irving that is much more limited since Irving is so ball dominant. 

[KGs Knee]

The answer isn't to trade him. The answer is for everyone to get off my lawn.

And mine too!