Author Topic: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru  (Read 4669 times)

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3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« on: July 29, 2009, 11:38:51 AM »

Offline Jeff

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Boston wants Daniels, NJ wants Baby, Indy wants none of our stuff.  Sometimes it is just as simple as meshing these things together.

How about Indy trades Daniels to NJ for their trade exception from the Vince deal.  NJ immediately flips Daniels and player X to the Celtics for Big Baby

Daniels apparently is getting somewhere around $2M and Davis is getting somewhere around $5M, so player (or players) X has to make around $3M

Individual candidates include Dooling and Najera and Yi (who apparently is off the table?)  Or you could combine Sean Williams with someone like Jarvis Hayes.  Additionally, if NJ wants anyone else or wants to pay Big Baby even more than 5M, you can get even more creative.

The question is, do we think getting Daniels and player X (Dooling for example) is enough to part with Davis when we could just sign Daniels and match an offer to Davis? 

It might depend on what we do with the Bi-Annual exception that we'd keep open in the above scenario.

ok, so I'm sure I forgot something - tell me what I missed
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Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2009, 11:44:16 AM »

Offline Kwhit10

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I don't know, Dooling would be nice and all, but I'd rather have Baby and Daniels, than Daniels and Dooling.

Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2009, 11:54:10 AM »

Offline wiley

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I don't know, but what about the "un-named big man" mentioned in home page article?

Glad Danny's being hard-nosed and not just taking on whomever....as you mentioned, being able to match Glen and sign Daniels outright gives us a bit of strength in this attempted deal....Seems like Danny's using that strength: hence the hold-up.

Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2009, 12:05:13 PM »

Offline Chris

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I like the first part of the trade of Daniels to NJ for the trade exception.  Lets say its for $3 million.  

So then you trade Daniels, Boone, and Hayes to Boston for Davis ($4.5 million), Allen, and Pruitt.

This pretty much solves all of the C's issues on the wing, and also gives them a little more depth up front in Boone.  Indy gets a TPE, and no extra salary, the Nets get Davis, and if they don't pickup Pruitt's option, they also open up an extra roster spot.

Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2009, 12:30:32 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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I like the first part of the trade of Daniels to NJ for the trade exception.  Lets say its for $3 million.  

So then you trade Daniels, Boone, and Hayes to Boston for Davis ($4.5 million), Allen, and Pruitt.

This pretty much solves all of the C's issues on the wing, and also gives them a little more depth up front in Boone.  Indy gets a TPE, and no extra salary, the Nets get Davis, and if they don't pickup Pruitt's option, they also open up an extra roster spot.


Anyway to change Hayes into a PG (like Dooling)?  That way, the Celtics fill three spots.

Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2009, 12:37:14 PM »

Offline Jon

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Dooling for Baby wouldn't be horrible.  While you could argue Baby is worth more, Dooling is probably better than any FA we could get (thus better than outright losing Baby) and is arguably a better fit for this team than Baby.  Like I said, Davis is a nice player, but if he came back, he'd have trouble getting minutes with KG, Perk, and Sheed all looking for 30+ mpg.  He'd really be little more than an insurance policy.  While that'd be nice to have, Leon Powe could probably fill his role nearly as well by midway through the season. 

As for Dooling, he'd give us a big backup PG that has made strides in the shooting department over the past few years (he shot 42% from 3pt land last year).  He'd give a competent backup PG that could probably swing to the 2 for a few mpg if needed. 

While we could fantasize about more, he wouldn't be a terrible player to get to go with Daniels in a 3 way. 

Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2009, 12:45:07 PM »

Offline Chris

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I like the first part of the trade of Daniels to NJ for the trade exception.  Lets say its for $3 million.  

So then you trade Daniels, Boone, and Hayes to Boston for Davis ($4.5 million), Allen, and Pruitt.

This pretty much solves all of the C's issues on the wing, and also gives them a little more depth up front in Boone.  Indy gets a TPE, and no extra salary, the Nets get Davis, and if they don't pickup Pruitt's option, they also open up an extra roster spot.


Anyway to change Hayes into a PG (like Dooling)?  That way, the Celtics fill three spots.

You could if the C's were to send out a little more salary (either replace Allen with Scal, or add in someone like Giddens).  I would rather have Hayes than Dooling though.  I feel confident enough in Daniels and House in the backcourt, that I think the bigger need would be a tough, defensive SF, who can hit the 3, and Hayes can be that guy.  So while I would have no problem with getting Dooling, I think he became much less important when they signed Daniels.

Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2009, 12:47:03 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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I like the first part of the trade of Daniels to NJ for the trade exception.  Lets say its for $3 million.  

So then you trade Daniels, Boone, and Hayes to Boston for Davis ($4.5 million), Allen, and Pruitt.

This pretty much solves all of the C's issues on the wing, and also gives them a little more depth up front in Boone.  Indy gets a TPE, and no extra salary, the Nets get Davis, and if they don't pickup Pruitt's option, they also open up an extra roster spot.


Anyway to change Hayes into a PG (like Dooling)?  That way, the Celtics fill three spots.

You could if the C's were to send out a little more salary (either replace Allen with Scal, or add in someone like Giddens).  I would rather have Hayes than Dooling though.  I feel confident enough in Daniels and House in the backcourt, that I think the bigger need would be a tough, defensive SF, who can hit the 3, and Hayes can be that guy.  So while I would have no problem with getting Dooling, I think he became much less important when they signed Daniels.


I like the idea of getting the PG that is big enough to play with House and signing a player like Bowens to fill that 4th swing man position.   And I am perfectly fine with good ole JR going in such a trade.

Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2009, 12:48:08 PM »

Offline Chris

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I like the first part of the trade of Daniels to NJ for the trade exception.  Lets say its for $3 million.  

So then you trade Daniels, Boone, and Hayes to Boston for Davis ($4.5 million), Allen, and Pruitt.

This pretty much solves all of the C's issues on the wing, and also gives them a little more depth up front in Boone.  Indy gets a TPE, and no extra salary, the Nets get Davis, and if they don't pickup Pruitt's option, they also open up an extra roster spot.


Anyway to change Hayes into a PG (like Dooling)?  That way, the Celtics fill three spots.

You could if the C's were to send out a little more salary (either replace Allen with Scal, or add in someone like Giddens).  I would rather have Hayes than Dooling though.  I feel confident enough in Daniels and House in the backcourt, that I think the bigger need would be a tough, defensive SF, who can hit the 3, and Hayes can be that guy.  So while I would have no problem with getting Dooling, I think he became much less important when they signed Daniels.


I like the idea of getting the PG that is big enough to play with House and signing a player like Bowens to fill that 4th swing man position.   And I am perfectly fine with good ole JR going in such a trade.

Yeah, I would be perfectly happy with that situation as well.  I just am intrigued by Hayes.

Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2009, 12:50:50 PM »

Offline Celtic#9

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I don't know, Dooling would be nice and all, but I'd rather have Baby and Daniels, than Daniels and Dooling.

Yes but we don't just get Daniels and Dooling, we get Daniels, Dooling, and get to keep the LLE. I don't think Baby would be to happy here anyway. I think he wants more minutes than we can offer.

Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2009, 12:59:39 PM »

Offline ssspence

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Boston wants Daniels, NJ wants Baby, Indy wants none of our stuff.  Sometimes it is just as simple as meshing these things together.

How about Indy trades Daniels to NJ for their trade exception from the Vince deal.  NJ immediately flips Daniels and player X to the Celtics for Big Baby

Daniels apparently is getting somewhere around $2M and Davis is getting somewhere around $5M, so player (or players) X has to make around $3M

Individual candidates include Dooling and Najera and Yi (who apparently is off the table?)  Or you could combine Sean Williams with someone like Jarvis Hayes.  Additionally, if NJ wants anyone else or wants to pay Big Baby even more than 5M, you can get even more creative.

The question is, do we think getting Daniels and player X (Dooling for example) is enough to part with Davis when we could just sign Daniels and match an offer to Davis? 

It might depend on what we do with the Bi-Annual exception that we'd keep open in the above scenario.

ok, so I'm sure I forgot something - tell me what I missed

It's tricky to make the numbers work. I posted a similar idea that included Memphis in order to find a home for TA and get the $$$ to be acceptable under BYC rules.

One important thing to remember is that we keep the LLE in this scenario. So, it's essnetially the difference between Daniels and Baby vs. Daniels, Dooling and that player signed (maybe Diogu, Powe, Bogans, Bowen or Joe Smith) as well as ridding us of a player or two to create roster space.
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Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2009, 06:39:49 PM »

Offline timepiece33

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I don't know, Dooling would be nice and all, but I'd rather have Baby and Daniels, than Daniels and Dooling.

Based on positions they play and depth in FA, I'd rather have Dooling and try to get Joe Smith with the LLE.   

To me, I'd be OK with giving Baby, Tony Allen, and Bill Walker if we got back Daniels, Dooling, and Sean Williams.

Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2009, 05:25:21 AM »

Offline BostonArizona

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Dooling is the man we need.

Hayes/Yi/Williams all have some value and are nice players but Dooling is the best fit here and is probably the easiest to aquire.

I would be perfectly fine with a straight swap BBD for Dooling.

As long as Daniels stays on board with a S&T for Pruitt Walker and TA your lineup looks great and you still got our LLE to pick up a journeyman 3 or 4.

This is the lineup I envision for next year:

Rondo/Dooling/Hudson
Allen/House
Pierce/Daniels/Bowen(?)/Giddens
Garnett/Powe/Scal
Perkins/Wallace

I disagree with those who say our 4th big is a serious need. I think scal fits the bill just fine(or Powe later in the season). Have to realize that come the end of the season/playoffs Garnett/Perkins/Wallace can easily handle all but a few of the 4 and 5 minutes.

Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2009, 12:32:34 PM »

Offline LA_33

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There are actually a ton of permutations for C's-Nets-Pacers three-way trades, given two assumptions: A) that the Nets are willing to take TA using their TPE, in addition to a couple other small salaries along with Davis, and B) that the C's are willing to take back two players (and about $5m in salary) in the Davis-to-NJ portion of the deal (while sending two+BBD out, so roster-spot neutral).

Most of the possibilities involve the NJ-Bos portion.  In most workable scenarios, the deal has to involve two players coming back to Boston, with Yi, Dooling, or Najera being one, and Hayes or Sean Williams being the other (Boone, who Chris mentioned, also works, but I doubt that the Nets would give him up).  The C's have to send two of Giddens, Pruitt, and/or Walker along with Davis to make the money work, presumably including Pruitt, since the Nets don't have 4 roster spots available anyway, and they still have to take back TA in a separate TPE deal (which I'll explain later, but the Davis package has to be determined first).

The C's supposedly "need a big" in the combo deal, which means one of 2-3 things:  1) Yi is the primary return, which seems unlikely from NJ's end, 2) Sean Williams qualifies as that big, and is the second salary leaving NJ, and/or 3) Najera counts as a big, and he's the "larger" salary. 

If the C's take Dooling/Hayes (the most expensive "column A + column B" combo, but also the only one that doesn't involve any of the three bigs) then Davis has to make $5.2m in year one, and it almost has to be Giddens and Pruitt going to the Nets.  If it's Najera and Williams (the cheapest combo) Baby could be paid as little as $3.5m this year.  Something in the $4m-$4.5m range seems like market value, though, and something in that range makes any of the non-Dooling/Hayes combos work.

It's even possible for the C's to take two of the $3m-range guys (or even three) but to do that, Scal has to go to NJ along with Davis.  If both Scal and Giddens join Davis going the other way, the C's can even take back three guys (Dooling, Najera, and Williams matches BBD at $4m, Scal, and Giddens, and if Baby get $5, and Pruitt is added as well, it could be Dooling, Yi, and Najera, the three "$3m" guys, although that would add nearly $10m to the C's payroll, while sending out less than $4.5, plus Davis, and I can't see that happening; I think Davis/Giddens/Pruitt for one $3m guy and either Hayes or Williams is more likely).

After the initial NJ deal happens, the C's can send TA to the Nets for their TPE, with Daniels joining the C's for anything between $2m and $3.1m. 

The Pacers also supposedly "want a wing" in a S&T deal, and that could be any number of guys from NJ.  With TA joining the Nets (and probably Giddens as well), CD-R might be considered expendable, and he could be sent to Indy for a conditional 2nd in a "3rd, separate trade" via the minimum trade exception (perhaps even for the same conditional 2nd that the Nets would have to send to Indy along with the TPE for TA). 

Or, if Walker is one of the two smaller contracts going to NJ in the Davis S&T, he go to Indy in the "3rd" trade, for that same conditional 2nd.

Finally, if Hayes doesn't come to Boston in the Davis signing, the Nets could also send him to Indy for TA, instead of their TPE.  That might actually be the most even salary swap for all three teams, if the Pacers are willing to pay the extra $1.265m, and the C's will accept a Davis S&T that doesn't include Hayes.

As long as Pruitt is one of the bodies to the Nets (or Scal replaces the two smaller-salary guys) all of these combined deals end up being roster-spot neutral for NJ, which is necessary since they currently have 15 guaranteed contracts.

I know that's a ton of possibilities to think about, but they all work under both 125% matching and BYC rules.   

Re: 3 team idea (Ind/NJ/Bos) - help me think this thru
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2009, 02:12:17 PM »

Offline timepiece33

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I believe Dooling/Hayes would include Tony Allen going to them.  Maybe you include Sean Williams.

Also, NJ is under the cap.  I believe that helps as does their trade exceptions.