my final post on this - part two
Eja… “Well wait a second. There's a "peace" movement, a pacifist movement, and an isolationist movement.”
The first two were similar. They were very close philosophically. The isolationists had the same objectives, though for different reasons. But they all were part of the same protests and it wasn’t like they all wore signs to know the difference. It wasn’t like, “Okay, you isolationists have to wait until tomorrow. Us peaceniks are doing it today.” The goal was the same and that was what mattered to most.
Eja… you didn't see the peace movement saying "Let's win this thing so we can have peace".
That is because they thought the war was wrong on a number of levels. They wanted it stopped and our boys brought home. And you have to consider that "winning it" was easier said than done. Russia and China were supporting the North heavily. At that time the superpowers were fighting wars by proxy. The more we would escalate the more they would. The big difference was that we sent men to fight and that still wasn’t enough.
Eja… “at protests they did wave the enemy flag.”
Yes, I guess a very, very few did. But not at most protests. Like the media is want to do, you are taking the most radical and extreme and saying it’s the norm. Most likely they were extreme radicals like the SDS or Weathermen or their sympathizers.
Eja… "They also liked to call American soldiers baby killers and I don't see what's so peaceful about that."
Again, it seem as if you think that happened all the time. It was a horrible thing to say to our returning servicemen. I agree completely. I’m sure that it didn’t happen often.
Where that originated from was the My Lai Massacre with Lt. Cally. If you don’t know about it, look it up. There were other instances of very bad behavior by our troops that weren’t as public. No doubt, the enemy was just as ruthless, and probably more so. But we were in his country, he wasn’t in ours. I hate to think what some (most?) of our citizens would do to protect themselves from invaders.
And BTW..aren’t you doing the same thing as those who called our loyal servicemen baby killers by assigning the dastardly acts of a very few….to all hippies and protesters? It is lazy thinking. The extreme few don’t represent the whole.
Eja… “It wasn't really "peace" they were concerned with. It was isolationism and not having to worry about anything other than their own lives.”
Again, you are grouping everyone together. For the majority, that wasn’t true. I’m sure that might have been true for some. But isolationism is alive and well today. So, is that okay if it is from a new generation? There were isolationists even after Pearl Harbor, though a lot less than before. And how many wars are we to fight for other countries? Do you have the answer to that question? I don’t.
Eja… “I was responding to the sentence "The hippie movement worldwide was very significant. Some of it's positive influences were womens' rights, gay rights, black rights."
that was said by gustacius.”
You didn’t say that. You quoted my entire post instead. What else would I think, except that you addressing me?
As I wind this up….
if I was a 24 year old and I was talking to a fifty something year old, the last thing I would be doing is telling him how things were in his lifetime. I might have my own ideas, but I would be asking him questions to see how they jibed with his own experiences. I might be able to learn something, as opposed to the way you have conducted yourself with me.
Even at my advanced age, I’m willing, even earnest, to learn new things. I hope you might take the same outlook. Don’t be so set in your ways. You are much too young for that. Read things from points of views that you disagree with. Truth is where you find it. Even if you don’t change your opinion, it helps you to understand people who think differently from yourself.
Intolerance and ignorance are big things to try to eradicate from our society. Someone once said that, “ the only thing worse than a young pessimist is an old optimist.” Well, I am an old optimist. Pity the fool that I am.
penultimate thought….
Eja… “In recent years there have been great musical movements like grunge but I don't really consider them socially significant, and it always just surprises me when former hippies seem to describe Woodstock as some significant social event as though it was some culmination of positive ideals or a religious event.”
Eja, that is because it significant socially and, to their way of thinking, a sacred or religious event or moment. It was the actualization of their combined ideals for at least one crazy week-end, if no other.
Grunge wasn’t as significant for the very reasons you mention. It wasn’t tied to a higher ideal. The music and ideals of the 60s were very much tied together. I guess people today don't understand that.
Finally…
I wish many good things in your life for both you and yours eja. You have a lot of living to do. Continue to learn and grow. You might be surprised at what you discover. Everything’s not quite as simple as you seem to think it is. I wish you well. I’m done with this now. You get the last word.
If I’ve offended you, I apologize.
Peace,
TenaciousT (Tom Halzack)
