The J.B. Problem Bill Simmons

[Kuberski33]

Jaylen is overpaid. However, that doesn't mean he stinks. His game is transition. If you give him the ball and he has a half step on his defender - doesn't matter who that defender is - it's 2 points. If he pulls up for a 3 in transition, even if he has a teammate open, I'm good with it, because he converts a LOT of those. I like when he's selfish on the break. In those situations he's right up there with the best in the league when it comes to finishing.

He defends, he rebounds. His passing, while not great, I'd say is good by NBA standards.

The struggle comes in the half court offense, which is why last night's game may have been significant. When opposing teams put a guy in his grille and try to get him to advance the ball by dribbling, he'll cough it up. Especially going to his left. And he doesn't always make the best decisions when they're working the ball around trying to get a decent shot opportunity.

So in that regard, last night's game was interesting and his improvement - if there is any - bears watching. But Milwaukee is also not a great defensive team. They had serious problems guarding us till the 3's stopped falling in the 2nd half.

He does work well with Porzingis - the end of the Charlotte game excepted. So his development, I'd say  is one of the main storylines to follow with this team as the season progresses.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

The two man game with Brown and Zinger has been good all year. I’d argue they have a better connection than Tatum and Zinger. That offense can sustain us really well early in the game.

But I think Tatum has to learn to be the closer in the second half. He’s pretty inconsistent there.

Overpaid or not, Brown’s talent elevates this team against the best teams in the NBA. He’s always been a really good two-way player against top competition, and inconsistent otherwise.

[Neurotic Guy]

The two man game with Brown and Zinger has been good all year. I’d argue they have a better connection than Tatum and Zinger. That offense can sustain us really well early in the game.

But I think Tatum has to learn to be the closer in the second half. He’s pretty inconsistent there.

Overpaid or not, Brown’s talent elevates this team against the best teams in the NBA. He’s always been a really good two-way player against top competition, and inconsistent otherwise.

Every good/great player has clunkers - not really sure if JB has more than his share or average.  But the point of JB in 2023-24 should be your five words: “Brown’s talent elevates this team”. I realize there are a poster or two here that believe this isn’t true and believe the data proves them right. But I’m not buying any argument that this team is better minus JB or ANY of the top six. Yes - there’s likely someone out there who would fit here better than Jaylen, but I’m glad he’s on this team this year - we would be worse without him and he should not get the level of play to play or game to game criticism he gets here. Despite his ongoing adjustments to a changed role, he has all-star numbers (though may not make the team this year) and he’s starting to think pass first - at least some of the time.

[Moranis]

The two man game with Brown and Zinger has been good all year. I’d argue they have a better connection than Tatum and Zinger. That offense can sustain us really well early in the game.

But I think Tatum has to learn to be the closer in the second half. He’s pretty inconsistent there.

Overpaid or not, Brown’s talent elevates this team against the best teams in the NBA. He’s always been a really good two-way player against top competition, and inconsistent otherwise.

Every good/great player has clunkers - not really sure if JB has more than his share or average.  But the point of JB in 2023-24 should be your five words: “Brown’s talent elevates this team”. I realize there are a poster or two here that believe this isn’t true and believe the data proves them right. But I’m not buying any argument that this team is better minus JB or ANY of the top six. Yes - there’s likely someone out there who would fit here better than Jaylen, but I’m glad he’s on this team this year - we would be worse without him and he should not get the level of play to play or game to game criticism he gets here. Despite his ongoing adjustments to a changed role, he has all-star numbers (though may not make the team this year) and he’s starting to think pass first - at least some of the time.

For me it is not that he has clunkers, it is that his skill set just doesn't fit well with Tatum.

[liam]

The Celtics have the best record in the NBA and Bill Simmons is crying. Figures...

[Neurotic Guy]

The two man game with Brown and Zinger has been good all year. I’d argue they have a better connection than Tatum and Zinger. That offense can sustain us really well early in the game.

But I think Tatum has to learn to be the closer in the second half. He’s pretty inconsistent there.

Overpaid or not, Brown’s talent elevates this team against the best teams in the NBA. He’s always been a really good two-way player against top competition, and inconsistent otherwise.

Every good/great player has clunkers - not really sure if JB has more than his share or average.  But the point of JB in 2023-24 should be your five words: “Brown’s talent elevates this team”. I realize there are a poster or two here that believe this isn’t true and believe the data proves them right. But I’m not buying any argument that this team is better minus JB or ANY of the top six. Yes - there’s likely someone out there who would fit here better than Jaylen, but I’m glad he’s on this team this year - we would be worse without him and he should not get the level of play to play or game to game criticism he gets here. Despite his ongoing adjustments to a changed role, he has all-star numbers (though may not make the team this year) and he’s starting to think pass first - at least some of the time.

For me it is not that he has clunkers, it is that his skill set just doesn't fit well with Tatum.

Completely get that. My view is that though it isn’t ideal, having both is still really good. In others words I don’t see it as counterproductive even though a more complimentary skill set would likely be even better. 

[KG Living Legend]

The two man game with Brown and Zinger has been good all year. I’d argue they have a better connection than Tatum and Zinger. That offense can sustain us really well early in the game.

But I think Tatum has to learn to be the closer in the second half. He’s pretty inconsistent there.

Overpaid or not, Brown’s talent elevates this team against the best teams in the NBA. He’s always been a really good two-way player against top competition, and inconsistent otherwise.

Every good/great player has clunkers - not really sure if JB has more than his share or average.  But the point of JB in 2023-24 should be your five words: “Brown’s talent elevates this team”. I realize there are a poster or two here that believe this isn’t true and believe the data proves them right. But I’m not buying any argument that this team is better minus JB or ANY of the top six. Yes - there’s likely someone out there who would fit here better than Jaylen, but I’m glad he’s on this team this year - we would be worse without him and he should not get the level of play to play or game to game criticism he gets here. Despite his ongoing adjustments to a changed role, he has all-star numbers (though may not make the team this year) and he’s starting to think pass first - at least some of the time.

For me it is not that he has clunkers, it is that his skill set just doesn't fit well with Tatum.

 I have seen a ton of Celtics games. Very rarely have I seen Tatum make Brown better or vice versa. You figure after this many years the chemisry would be much better.

 However Jaylen and KP becoming fast freinds is excellent news. You can see how much chemistry matters.

[blink]

The Celtics have the best record in the NBA and Bill Simmons is crying. Figures...

I don't get it either.   I guess Simmons is like us, he is a fan and he over-reacts emotionally to a bad game or two and doesn't see the bigger picture.
Surprise Surprise.

Honestly, I don't get the 'we need to ship out JB'.   JB just needs to adjust to the new situation with the team.   He did that brilliantly last night.
Yeah there is overlap between tatum and brown, but so what?  The overlapping skillset isn't what is in the way of us getting a title with these two.

[Moranis]

The two man game with Brown and Zinger has been good all year. I’d argue they have a better connection than Tatum and Zinger. That offense can sustain us really well early in the game.

But I think Tatum has to learn to be the closer in the second half. He’s pretty inconsistent there.

Overpaid or not, Brown’s talent elevates this team against the best teams in the NBA. He’s always been a really good two-way player against top competition, and inconsistent otherwise.

Every good/great player has clunkers - not really sure if JB has more than his share or average.  But the point of JB in 2023-24 should be your five words: “Brown’s talent elevates this team”. I realize there are a poster or two here that believe this isn’t true and believe the data proves them right. But I’m not buying any argument that this team is better minus JB or ANY of the top six. Yes - there’s likely someone out there who would fit here better than Jaylen, but I’m glad he’s on this team this year - we would be worse without him and he should not get the level of play to play or game to game criticism he gets here. Despite his ongoing adjustments to a changed role, he has all-star numbers (though may not make the team this year) and he’s starting to think pass first - at least some of the time.

For me it is not that he has clunkers, it is that his skill set just doesn't fit well with Tatum.

Completely get that. My view is that though it isn’t ideal, having both is still really good. In others words I don’t see it as counterproductive even though a more complimentary skill set would likely be even better.

But that is the point.  If a complimentary skill set would be better, why not try to find that. We've had years of evidence that they don't work great together and that Tatum is the one that truly matters to Boston winning games. 

[DefenseWinsChamps]

The two man game with Brown and Zinger has been good all year. I’d argue they have a better connection than Tatum and Zinger. That offense can sustain us really well early in the game.

But I think Tatum has to learn to be the closer in the second half. He’s pretty inconsistent there.

Overpaid or not, Brown’s talent elevates this team against the best teams in the NBA. He’s always been a really good two-way player against top competition, and inconsistent otherwise.

Every good/great player has clunkers - not really sure if JB has more than his share or average.  But the point of JB in 2023-24 should be your five words: “Brown’s talent elevates this team”. I realize there are a poster or two here that believe this isn’t true and believe the data proves them right. But I’m not buying any argument that this team is better minus JB or ANY of the top six. Yes - there’s likely someone out there who would fit here better than Jaylen, but I’m glad he’s on this team this year - we would be worse without him and he should not get the level of play to play or game to game criticism he gets here. Despite his ongoing adjustments to a changed role, he has all-star numbers (though may not make the team this year) and he’s starting to think pass first - at least some of the time.

For me it is not that he has clunkers, it is that his skill set just doesn't fit well with Tatum.

You see I actually disagree with you here. It may not be a perfect fit together, but I think Tatum drifts in and out of games and isn't consistently aggressive as a scorer.

That's what Brown brings to the table. He normally starts aggressive from the tip and then Tatum (should) take over.

I'd be curious what type of all-star-level player people think would be better next to Tatum? Moranis, I know you've suggested Darius Garland before, but he's more inconsistent than Tatum and Brown. He has shown significant struggles in the playoffs as well.

For example, last night there were two times that Brown passed up a good shot to swing it (either one pass away or two) and it wound up with Tatum, who missed a key 3 pointer. I'm not sure what kind of player would have one that better/differently for Tatum.

[Moranis]

The two man game with Brown and Zinger has been good all year. I’d argue they have a better connection than Tatum and Zinger. That offense can sustain us really well early in the game.

But I think Tatum has to learn to be the closer in the second half. He’s pretty inconsistent there.

Overpaid or not, Brown’s talent elevates this team against the best teams in the NBA. He’s always been a really good two-way player against top competition, and inconsistent otherwise.

Every good/great player has clunkers - not really sure if JB has more than his share or average.  But the point of JB in 2023-24 should be your five words: “Brown’s talent elevates this team”. I realize there are a poster or two here that believe this isn’t true and believe the data proves them right. But I’m not buying any argument that this team is better minus JB or ANY of the top six. Yes - there’s likely someone out there who would fit here better than Jaylen, but I’m glad he’s on this team this year - we would be worse without him and he should not get the level of play to play or game to game criticism he gets here. Despite his ongoing adjustments to a changed role, he has all-star numbers (though may not make the team this year) and he’s starting to think pass first - at least some of the time.

For me it is not that he has clunkers, it is that his skill set just doesn't fit well with Tatum.

You see I actually disagree with you here. It may not be a perfect fit together, but I think Tatum drifts in and out of games and isn't consistently aggressive as a scorer.

That's what Brown brings to the table. He normally starts aggressive from the tip and then Tatum (should) take over.

I'd be curious what type of all-star-level player people think would be better next to Tatum? Moranis, I know you've suggested Darius Garland before, but he's more inconsistent than Tatum and Brown. He has shown significant struggles in the playoffs as well.

For example, last night there were two times that Brown passed up a good shot to swing it (either one pass away or two) and it wound up with Tatum, who missed a key 3 pointer. I'm not sure what kind of player would have one that better/differently for Tatum.

A player that is a much better play maker and shooter.  Brown has no elite skills.  He is good to very good at most things, but he just isn't elite at anything and he is worse almost across the board at everything than Tatum.  He provides nothing you can't get from the better player.  He doesn't elevate or compliment Tatum.  I went through the first half of Udoka's season when Brown was in and out of the lineup in chunks (which made this a good experiment), and Tatum's stats were mostly the same, except for his shooting, which increased significantly when Brown wasn't out there and he was paired with a much worse player than Brown, but one that was more complimentary.  And the Celtics during that stretch were 6-7 with Brown and 7-7 without him.  Tatum just plays better when he doesn't share the floor with Brown, which is why Tatum's on/off differential is so much better than Brown's every single year despite them both starting on the same team and playing roughly the same minutes.  The offense stagnates and isn't as dynamic when they both have to get theirs, but when it is just Tatum, it always runs through him and the team just plays better.  There are obviously going to be games where Brown is the difference between winning and losing as he is a very good player, but he doesn't provide the value or impact that someone of his ability should. 

[Neurotic Guy]

The two man game with Brown and Zinger has been good all year. I’d argue they have a better connection than Tatum and Zinger. That offense can sustain us really well early in the game.

But I think Tatum has to learn to be the closer in the second half. He’s pretty inconsistent there.

Overpaid or not, Brown’s talent elevates this team against the best teams in the NBA. He’s always been a really good two-way player against top competition, and inconsistent otherwise.

Every good/great player has clunkers - not really sure if JB has more than his share or average.  But the point of JB in 2023-24 should be your five words: “Brown’s talent elevates this team”. I realize there are a poster or two here that believe this isn’t true and believe the data proves them right. But I’m not buying any argument that this team is better minus JB or ANY of the top six. Yes - there’s likely someone out there who would fit here better than Jaylen, but I’m glad he’s on this team this year - we would be worse without him and he should not get the level of play to play or game to game criticism he gets here. Despite his ongoing adjustments to a changed role, he has all-star numbers (though may not make the team this year) and he’s starting to think pass first - at least some of the time.

For me it is not that he has clunkers, it is that his skill set just doesn't fit well with Tatum.

Completely get that. My view is that though it isn’t ideal, having both is still really good. In others words I don’t see it as counterproductive even though a more complimentary skill set would likely be even better.

But that is the point.  If a complimentary skill set would be better, why not try to find that. We've had years of evidence that they don't work great together and that Tatum is the one that truly matters to Boston winning games.

Don’t we actually each have a point?  I’m grateful for a great player in Jaylen in addition to JT and the rest of the cast.  There are probably a few players out there who would be a better fit with Jayson but I’m not going to spend much time concerned about the possibility of getting one of them because I think it’s really good that we have Jaylen.  A downgrade in talent for an upgrade in fit isn’t a no-brainer.  It would have to be a special player and then it’s a maybe depending upon other variables - age, injury history, character… On this day especially… I’m thankful for what we’ve got. Which btw is the best record in the league. Not to mention, he can’t be traded.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

A player that is a much better play maker and shooter.  Brown has no elite skills.  He is good to very good at most things, but he just isn't elite at anything and he is worse almost across the board at everything than Tatum.  He provides nothing you can't get from the better player.  He doesn't elevate or compliment Tatum.  I went through the first half of Udoka's season when Brown was in and out of the lineup in chunks (which made this a good experiment), and Tatum's stats were mostly the same, except for his shooting, which increased significantly when Brown wasn't out there and he was paired with a much worse player than Brown, but one that was more complimentary.  And the Celtics during that stretch were 6-7 with Brown and 7-7 without him.  Tatum just plays better when he doesn't share the floor with Brown, which is why Tatum's on/off differential is so much better than Brown's every single year despite them both starting on the same team and playing roughly the same minutes.  The offense stagnates and isn't as dynamic when they both have to get theirs, but when it is just Tatum, it always runs through him and the team just plays better.  There are obviously going to be games where Brown is the difference between winning and losing as he is a very good player, but he doesn't provide the value or impact that someone of his ability should.
[/quote]

Give me some examples of a similar level player you think would be better than Brown.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

A player that is a much better play maker and shooter.  Brown has no elite skills.  He is good to very good at most things, but he just isn't elite at anything and he is worse almost across the board at everything than Tatum.  He provides nothing you can't get from the better player.  He doesn't elevate or compliment Tatum.  I went through the first half of Udoka's season when Brown was in and out of the lineup in chunks (which made this a good experiment), and Tatum's stats were mostly the same, except for his shooting, which increased significantly when Brown wasn't out there and he was paired with a much worse player than Brown, but one that was more complimentary.  And the Celtics during that stretch were 6-7 with Brown and 7-7 without him.  Tatum just plays better when he doesn't share the floor with Brown, which is why Tatum's on/off differential is so much better than Brown's every single year despite them both starting on the same team and playing roughly the same minutes.  The offense stagnates and isn't as dynamic when they both have to get theirs, but when it is just Tatum, it always runs through him and the team just plays better.  There are obviously going to be games where Brown is the difference between winning and losing as he is a very good player, but he doesn't provide the value or impact that someone of his ability should.

Give me some examples of a similar level player you think would be better than Brown.

[RodyTur10]

A player that is a much better play maker and shooter.  Brown has no elite skills.  He is good to very good at most things, but he just isn't elite at anything and he is worse almost across the board at everything than Tatum.  He provides nothing you can't get from the better player.  He doesn't elevate or compliment Tatum.  I went through the first half of Udoka's season when Brown was in and out of the lineup in chunks (which made this a good experiment), and Tatum's stats were mostly the same, except for his shooting, which increased significantly when Brown wasn't out there and he was paired with a much worse player than Brown, but one that was more complimentary.  And the Celtics during that stretch were 6-7 with Brown and 7-7 without him.  Tatum just plays better when he doesn't share the floor with Brown, which is why Tatum's on/off differential is so much better than Brown's every single year despite them both starting on the same team and playing roughly the same minutes.  The offense stagnates and isn't as dynamic when they both have to get theirs, but when it is just Tatum, it always runs through him and the team just plays better.  There are obviously going to be games where Brown is the difference between winning and losing as he is a very good player, but he doesn't provide the value or impact that someone of his ability should.

Give me some examples of a similar level player you think would be better than Brown.

I'm no moderator, but perhaps a good idea to continue that discussion in this thread: https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=108501.15 ?