Author Topic: Ewing Theory and the Celtics  (Read 5983 times)

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Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2019, 07:07:03 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Bill Simmons is an idiot.

Never have truer words been uttered.  Simmons' idiocy is matched only by his protege, KOC.  I wish those two bozos would just go away.


As for the premise of the thread, I can't say I really care one way or the other.  The past is the past and I'd rather just focus on the present.  I'm just here for the Bill Simmons hate.  Good stuff.

Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2019, 07:12:07 PM »

Offline CF033

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If the Celtics can make it through a few games without having a quarter where they look like a ymca pick up game of guys that never played together before they'll be better than last year.

Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2019, 07:13:43 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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The Ewing theory is not based on a player leaving the team, it is based on the premise that if you best player goes down the role players step up in his absence.  We've seen that time and time again, but when that player actually leaves the team, the team pretty much is always worse.  I mean the 00 Knicks won 50 games and were in the ECF.  The next year when Ewing was in Seattle, the Knicks did manage 48 wins, but then lost in the 1st round to a team they swept in the 1st round the prior year.  Knicks were not better when Ewing wasn't on the team, though might have been better for short stretches when he was banged up (I didn't actually check that).

Ironically, the Celtic's W/L record in the games Kyrie missed due to injury last year directly support the Ewing theory in this case.

:D

We've been over that.

Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2019, 07:41:21 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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The Ewing theory was actually a real-world occurrence of Braess' Paradox.

Braess' Paradox is a phenomena in networks where adding additional pathways does not always result in increased efficiency.   It is most famously observed in traffic, where the addition of an alternate route between points A and B can actually end up slowing things down.  It has applications in all kinds of places, from electrical and data circuits to hydraulics, plumbing to various human interaction systems.

Some researchers a while back heard about Simmons & Lowe's theory regarding Ewing and they did an analysis, looking at the scoring efficiency of Ewing and his teammates and showed that what was going on was an instance of Braess' paradox.   The short version is that while Ewing represented an efficient 'alternate route' to scoring, the distribution of shots changing when he was on/off the floor decreased the overall throughput.

In the case of the Boston Celtics, though, if Braess' Paradox is in play, it's a more nuanced thing than with what happened in the Ewing case.   With the Celtics, the problem can be broken down into three states that cover everything:

A) Possessions with Kyrie on the floor.
B) Possessions without Kyrie, in games Kyrie did not play.
C) Possessions without Kyrie, in games Kyrie started.

The team's net rating in (A) and (B) were both very, very good.

The team's net rating in (C), however, sucked like smelly things in your septic tank.   And that's the part that killed us.

That's the mystery of this entire last season and indeed, for the entire two seasons Kyrie was here.   For whatever reason, this team just could not figure out how to play well in games Kyrie started, once he would go to the bench.   The same non-Kyrie players would play great in games he did not start.

If that can be explained by Braess' Paradox, I'd be very interested.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2019, 08:33:07 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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The Ewing theory was actually a real-world occurrence of Braess' Paradox.

Braess' Paradox is a phenomena in networks where adding additional pathways does not always result in increased efficiency.   It is most famously observed in traffic, where the addition of an alternate route between points A and B can actually end up slowing things down.  It has applications in all kinds of places, from electrical and data circuits to hydraulics, plumbing to various human interaction systems.

Some researchers a while back heard about Simmons & Lowe's theory regarding Ewing and they did an analysis, looking at the scoring efficiency of Ewing and his teammates and showed that what was going on was an instance of Braess' paradox.   The short version is that while Ewing represented an efficient 'alternate route' to scoring, the distribution of shots changing when he was on/off the floor decreased the overall throughput.

In the case of the Boston Celtics, though, if Braess' Paradox is in play, it's a more nuanced thing than with what happened in the Ewing case.   With the Celtics, the problem can be broken down into three states that cover everything:

A) Possessions with Kyrie on the floor.
B) Possessions without Kyrie, in games Kyrie did not play.
C) Possessions without Kyrie, in games Kyrie started.

The team's net rating in (A) and (B) were both very, very good.

The team's net rating in (C), however, sucked like smelly things in your septic tank.   And that's the part that killed us.

That's the mystery of this entire last season and indeed, for the entire two seasons Kyrie was here.   For whatever reason, this team just could not figure out how to play well in games Kyrie started, once he would go to the bench.   The same non-Kyrie players would play great in games he did not start.

If that can be explained by Braess' Paradox, I'd be very interested.

I believe it harkens back to the flat earth theory .  In C , Kyrie is actually standing upside down on the bottom of the earth .

Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2019, 09:19:53 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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The Ewing theory was actually a real-world occurrence of Braess' Paradox.

Braess' Paradox is a phenomena in networks where adding additional pathways does not always result in increased efficiency.   It is most famously observed in traffic, where the addition of an alternate route between points A and B can actually end up slowing things down.  It has applications in all kinds of places, from electrical and data circuits to hydraulics, plumbing to various human interaction systems.

Some researchers a while back heard about Simmons & Lowe's theory regarding Ewing and they did an analysis, looking at the scoring efficiency of Ewing and his teammates and showed that what was going on was an instance of Braess' paradox.   The short version is that while Ewing represented an efficient 'alternate route' to scoring, the distribution of shots changing when he was on/off the floor decreased the overall throughput.

In the case of the Boston Celtics, though, if Braess' Paradox is in play, it's a more nuanced thing than with what happened in the Ewing case.   With the Celtics, the problem can be broken down into three states that cover everything:

A) Possessions with Kyrie on the floor.
B) Possessions without Kyrie, in games Kyrie did not play.
C) Possessions without Kyrie, in games Kyrie started.

The team's net rating in (A) and (B) were both very, very good.

The team's net rating in (C), however, sucked like smelly things in your septic tank.   And that's the part that killed us.

That's the mystery of this entire last season and indeed, for the entire two seasons Kyrie was here.   For whatever reason, this team just could not figure out how to play well in games Kyrie started, once he would go to the bench.   The same non-Kyrie players would play great in games he did not start.

If that can be explained by Braess' Paradox, I'd be very interested.

People will probably shrug when I say this, but I actually believe this may have something to do with the significant disparity in Terry Rozier's production as a starter versus a bench player.

If you look over just his last two seasons, 17-18 and 18-19, Rozier's Per-36 production over that two year stretch was as follows:

As a Starter: 16.3 Pts, 6.6 Reb, 5.7 Ast, 1.6 Stl, 1.5 TO, 42% FG, 40% 3PT, 80% FT
As a Reserve: 14.6 Pts, 6.3 Reb, 3.9 Ast, 0.8 Stl, 1.0 TO, 39% FG, 36% 3PT, 77% FT

His net ratings for last season:
2018-19 (starter): Off Rating 118, Def Rating 107, Net Rating +11
2018-19 (reserve): Off Rating 100, Def Rating 109, Net Rating -9

The only stats that didn't get significant improvements when he started (versus off the bench) were rebounding (about the same) and turnovers (which increased.  Other then that he put up better stats across the board in the games he started. 

And there are roughly 60 total games started by Rozier over those two seasons, so the sample size is pretty decent.

The two stats that really jump out at me are the Offensive Rating (which rises from 100 to 118) and assists (from 3.9 to 5.7). This gives me the impression that Rozier for some reason did a much better job of running the offense when he in the starting 5. 

Possible that when he played with that starters because of the talent around him he played more of a playmaking role, while when he came off the bench because there was a comparative lack of talent he went into ISO mode and played much less efficiently.  Or maybe it was because the lack of talent on the second unit allowed defenses to focus more of their attention on Rozier, reducing his efficiency.

Either way that Net Rating disparity is huge, and considering that Rozier was typically the guy who would come in when Kyrie sits, it may well go some way to explaining why Scenario C was such a drastic change.  The Celtics played great when Kyrie was in with the starters, and they played great when Rozier was in with the starters - but they played terrible when Rozier was on with second unit guys.

Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2019, 10:18:01 PM »

Offline gift

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The Ewing theory was actually a real-world occurrence of Braess' Paradox.

Braess' Paradox is a phenomena in networks where adding additional pathways does not always result in increased efficiency.   It is most famously observed in traffic, where the addition of an alternate route between points A and B can actually end up slowing things down.  It has applications in all kinds of places, from electrical and data circuits to hydraulics, plumbing to various human interaction systems.

Some researchers a while back heard about Simmons & Lowe's theory regarding Ewing and they did an analysis, looking at the scoring efficiency of Ewing and his teammates and showed that what was going on was an instance of Braess' paradox.   The short version is that while Ewing represented an efficient 'alternate route' to scoring, the distribution of shots changing when he was on/off the floor decreased the overall throughput.

In the case of the Boston Celtics, though, if Braess' Paradox is in play, it's a more nuanced thing than with what happened in the Ewing case.   With the Celtics, the problem can be broken down into three states that cover everything:

A) Possessions with Kyrie on the floor.
B) Possessions without Kyrie, in games Kyrie did not play.
C) Possessions without Kyrie, in games Kyrie started.

The team's net rating in (A) and (B) were both very, very good.

The team's net rating in (C), however, sucked like smelly things in your septic tank.   And that's the part that killed us.

That's the mystery of this entire last season and indeed, for the entire two seasons Kyrie was here.   For whatever reason, this team just could not figure out how to play well in games Kyrie started, once he would go to the bench.   The same non-Kyrie players would play great in games he did not start.

If that can be explained by Braess' Paradox, I'd be very interested.

Hmmm... I had never heard of Braess' Paradox but I will look into it more tomorrow. Very interesting!

Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2019, 05:52:33 AM »

Offline Scottiej23

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For the sake of clarity, The Ewing Theory is championed by Bill Simmons, but isn't actually his creation.

I used to like him when he had some sense of humility about him and enjoyed his writing when he was a fan. Unfortunately these days he believes himself to be an authority, when he is anything else but.

Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2019, 06:36:02 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Wow, surprised to see so much Simmons hate on here. I guess he rubs some people the wrong way.

What's going to make the Ewing Theory hard to judge is we didn't just lose Irving, we lost Horford as well. Also, the east is weaker at the top and arguably overall this upcoming season.

Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2019, 07:42:02 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Ewing problems related to the fact that he could have been even better if he has played more to his strengths.   In the pros, he became a mid range jump shooter.   In college he was a monster down low.   I like Ewing in college but not in the pros.

Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2019, 08:08:34 AM »

Offline Green-18

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Wow, surprised to see so much Simmons hate on here. I guess he rubs some people the wrong way.

What's going to make the Ewing Theory hard to judge is we didn't just lose Irving, we lost Horford as well. Also, the east is weaker at the top and arguably overall this upcoming season.

On top of that, Hayward has a full off-season to work on his game and get in the best shape possible.  Many of us believed Hayward would have been our best player if he had never gotten hurt.  A return to form will make us a much better regular season team than last years group, even with the subtraction of Horford.  Stevens can coach around the flaws in our front court, assuming the team plays with hustle and effort on a nightly basis. 

As others have stated, the ceiling was clearly higher on the Irving and Horford incarnation of the team.  There's an alternate reality where the 2017-2019 Celtics never sustained injuries, avoided chemistry problems, and competed with a healthy Warriors squad.  We can't even entertain the idea with the current roster.  Fortunately, the NBA no longer has a Superteam featuring 4 All-NBA players.

 


Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2019, 09:37:28 AM »

Offline timpiker

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We can whine and Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. all we want about losing Horford, but with at contract, no way in hell should we have matched it or done better.  Philly will regret that contract for years.  Yes, Horford's a very good player and I liked him a LOT.  But not for $109M freaking dollars for 4 freaking years when he's what?  33?  Are you kidding me????

I expect this years team to be better and more fun to watch.  Even though we lost our "2 best players".

Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2019, 09:50:07 AM »

Offline Green-18

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We can whine and **** all we want about losing Horford, but with at contract, no way in hell should we have matched it or done better.  Philly will regret that contract for years.  Yes, Horford's a very good player and I liked him a LOT.  But not for $109M freaking dollars for 4 freaking years when he's what?  33?  Are you kidding me????

I expect this years team to be better and more fun to watch.  Even though we lost our "2 best players".

I'm curious as to what criteria are you using to measure whether or not Philly will regret the contract?  Do they need to win a title?  Or does a Finals appearance alone make it worth it?

I'm not saying the Celtics should have paid Horford, but I also don't believe Philly will regret the deal if they make a Finals appearance.  That team is in dire need of a playoff breakthrough, even if it means overpaying a broken down Horford towards the end of his contract.

Horford should also serve as an excellent mentor for Embiid.   

Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2019, 11:08:34 AM »

Offline CelticsPoetry

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We can whine and **** all we want about losing Horford, but with at contract, no way in hell should we have matched it or done better.  Philly will regret that contract for years.  Yes, Horford's a very good player and I liked him a LOT.  But not for $109M freaking dollars for 4 freaking years when he's what?  33?  Are you kidding me????

I expect this years team to be better and more fun to watch.  Even though we lost our "2 best players".

I'm curious as to what criteria are you using to measure whether or not Philly will regret the contract?  Do they need to win a title?  Or does a Finals appearance alone make it worth it?

I'm not saying the Celtics should have paid Horford, but I also don't believe Philly will regret the deal if they make a Finals appearance.  That team is in dire need of a playoff breakthrough, even if it means overpaying a broken down Horford towards the end of his contract.

Horford should also serve as an excellent mentor for Embiid.   
Horford is not exactly broken down, he hasnt had a lot of health issues in his career actually

Re: Ewing Theory and the Celtics
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2019, 11:21:14 AM »

Offline Green-18

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We can whine and **** all we want about losing Horford, but with at contract, no way in hell should we have matched it or done better.  Philly will regret that contract for years.  Yes, Horford's a very good player and I liked him a LOT.  But not for $109M freaking dollars for 4 freaking years when he's what?  33?  Are you kidding me????

I expect this years team to be better and more fun to watch.  Even though we lost our "2 best players".

I'm curious as to what criteria are you using to measure whether or not Philly will regret the contract?  Do they need to win a title?  Or does a Finals appearance alone make it worth it?

I'm not saying the Celtics should have paid Horford, but I also don't believe Philly will regret the deal if they make a Finals appearance.  That team is in dire need of a playoff breakthrough, even if it means overpaying a broken down Horford towards the end of his contract.

Horford should also serve as an excellent mentor for Embiid.   
Horford is not exactly broken down, he hasnt had a lot of health issues in his career actually

You're absolutely right.  That's why I added "towards the end of his contract".  The point being that Philly wont view Horford as an overpay if they make an NBA Finals appearance, regardless of whether or not Horford breaks down.

As for my opinion, I think he will age in a similar fashion to Tim Duncan from this point forward.  I'm not suggesting he will have the same overall impact, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Horford as a very effective player in his mid-late 30's.  More than anything, his games played and minutes will need to be managed.