Brogdon + Golden State's 2024 Pick OR Jrue Holiday?

[wdleehi]

Miami or Philly with Jrue and Boston with only brogdon means we are not clear and away the best team in the East. we are just "one of the pack"

it was adding Jrue to this roster that put us over the top. this whole discussion is pointless. if Jrue is the missing piece to win a championship who cares...

did we overpay? probably. but i'm tired of fans always looking towards "the future" instead of right now. its why we always complained Wyc wasn't making moves because they were too concerned with contending in the future.

Seriously.  We got the summer of fireworks we had long been promised, and now some are worried that the fireworks were too expensive.  As Brad said after either the KP trade or the Jrue trade (or both) “You have to give good to get good.”

Bingo. 

I said it in the game thread last night, this is a special season.  Savor it.  They don't come around very often.  The future is actually looking pretty good too but no need to dwell on it.  Live in the moment.  This team is quite possibly winning the title come June.

There are really 3 different trades that involved players that are now part of our starting 5, White, Porzingis, Holiday.  You can like each trade, like the trade but feel we overpaid, or you can not like the trade.

With White, I liked the trade but felt we overpaid.  Many were fretting about the future first round pick and that was a swap, not even just an unprotected.  White has surpassed my expectations and it doesn't feel like an overpay any more to me.

The Porzingis trade was a steal.  I love Marcus, but we needed a skilled big far more than we needed a combo guard.  And we got 2 picks in the transaction.

When you get to the Holiday trade, we gave up more (as compared to the other trades), Holiday is on a less favorable contract (part of why we had to give up more), and he is not nearly the upgrade over Brogdon as Porzingis is over Smart, due largely to the fact that Porzingis plays a position where there was far greater need.  And overall, I am not sure he is better than White (who we got for a lot less).

At the time of the trade, Rob Williams had value.  Brogdon has value.  The two first round picks have value.  Even if you still feel we "won" the trade, you have to concede that of the 3, it is the trade that we won by the least amount.  I feel like the trade is kind of a wash.  I feel if we had Brogdon and what we could have gotten for Williams and two picks, that we would not be worse off.  I am happy with the trade, I like Holiday, but I don't feel like this was a massive winning trade, at least not so far.  I reserve the right to change my mind if Holiday wins us some playoff games.

Both William's and Brogdon's skill value are greater then their trade value.   

If it wasn't for injury concerns, Brogdon would have been with the Clippers in the Porzingis trade.   If Brogdon's trade value was high enough, the rebuilding Blazers would have  most likely traded him by now.

[celticsclay]

I don't look at this as Brogdon vs. Holiday, Holiday is a better player and we are better for sure with Holiday.  If the result was that we just kept the pick (it is #13 right now and may not stay in the lottery), then yes, we are better with Holiday than Brogdon and a pick.  But we also could have traded the 2 picks (don't forget we owe an unprotected 2029 first) and Rob Williams for something pretty good.  Brogdon + a decent player may have been just fine or better than just Holiday.  We have Holiday so that is a done deal and another trade is hypothetical, but there is an opportunity cost you have to account for.

Rob Williams had very limited trade value imo and that has only gotten lower. Even before he was out for the season he was clearly a guy that couldn’t play more than 25 minutes a game

[SHAQATTACK]

As of now, I would take Holiday every single time.

Me too.

That tenth pick prob won’t help during the prime Jay years .  If ever ,  Holiday is solid durable player with Championship pedigree and right attitude and great teammate .

[tonydelk]

It's all hindsight.  But the dominos would have been much different if the clippers had taken Brogdon.  The C's would still have Rob, Smart and the picks.  Do the C's still make the deal for Jrue?  If they don't does Miami get Jrue?  If they did could you imagine the heat with Butler, Jrue and Bam?  The C's would not be the juggernaut they are today without Jrue and may be looking up at Miami if they had gotten Jrue. 

[Vermont Green]

I don't look at this as Brogdon vs. Holiday, Holiday is a better player and we are better for sure with Holiday.  If the result was that we just kept the pick (it is #13 right now and may not stay in the lottery), then yes, we are better with Holiday than Brogdon and a pick.  But we also could have traded the 2 picks (don't forget we owe an unprotected 2029 first) and Rob Williams for something pretty good.  Brogdon + a decent player may have been just fine or better than just Holiday.  We have Holiday so that is a done deal and another trade is hypothetical, but there is an opportunity cost you have to account for.

Rob Williams had very limited trade value imo and that has only gotten lower. Even before he was out for the season he was clearly a guy that couldn’t play more than 25 minutes a game

He would have plenty of value with the two 1st round picks attached to him.

[jambr380]

I don't look at this as Brogdon vs. Holiday, Holiday is a better player and we are better for sure with Holiday.  If the result was that we just kept the pick (it is #13 right now and may not stay in the lottery), then yes, we are better with Holiday than Brogdon and a pick.  But we also could have traded the 2 picks (don't forget we owe an unprotected 2029 first) and Rob Williams for something pretty good.  Brogdon + a decent player may have been just fine or better than just Holiday.  We have Holiday so that is a done deal and another trade is hypothetical, but there is an opportunity cost you have to account for.

Rob Williams had very limited trade value imo and that has only gotten lower. Even before he was out for the season he was clearly a guy that couldn’t play more than 25 minutes a game

He would have plenty of value with the two 1st round picks attached to him.

Yeah, I’m happy with Jrue, but I’m not going to pretend that Brogdon plus whoever we could get for Rob plus 2 good 1sts wouldn’t also be good. Brogdon doesn’t suck and people should stop pretending that he does. He just got injured at exactly the wrong time last season.

As for Miami, you’d need to subtract Rozier, Herro, and probably someone like Jacquez. Not saying Jrue wouldn’t be great in Miami, but they would have lost a lot good talent to make that happen

[wdleehi]

I don't look at this as Brogdon vs. Holiday, Holiday is a better player and we are better for sure with Holiday.  If the result was that we just kept the pick (it is #13 right now and may not stay in the lottery), then yes, we are better with Holiday than Brogdon and a pick.  But we also could have traded the 2 picks (don't forget we owe an unprotected 2029 first) and Rob Williams for something pretty good.  Brogdon + a decent player may have been just fine or better than just Holiday.  We have Holiday so that is a done deal and another trade is hypothetical, but there is an opportunity cost you have to account for.

Rob Williams had very limited trade value imo and that has only gotten lower. Even before he was out for the season he was clearly a guy that couldn’t play more than 25 minutes a game

He would have plenty of value with the two 1st round picks attached to him.

Yeah, I’m happy with Jrue, but I’m not going to pretend that Brogdon plus whoever we could get for Rob plus 2 good 1sts wouldn’t also be good. Brogdon doesn’t suck and people should stop pretending that he does. He just got injured at exactly the wrong time last season.

As for Miami, you’d need to subtract Rozier, Herro, and probably someone like Jacquez. Not saying Jrue wouldn’t be great in Miami, but they would have lost a lot good talent to make that happen

No one is saying there is an issue with Brogdon's skills.   There is an issue with his trade value compared to his skill.

[Roy H.]

I don't look at this as Brogdon vs. Holiday, Holiday is a better player and we are better for sure with Holiday.  If the result was that we just kept the pick (it is #13 right now and may not stay in the lottery), then yes, we are better with Holiday than Brogdon and a pick.  But we also could have traded the 2 picks (don't forget we owe an unprotected 2029 first) and Rob Williams for something pretty good.  Brogdon + a decent player may have been just fine or better than just Holiday.  We have Holiday so that is a done deal and another trade is hypothetical, but there is an opportunity cost you have to account for.

Rob Williams had very limited trade value imo and that has only gotten lower. Even before he was out for the season he was clearly a guy that couldn’t play more than 25 minutes a game

He would have plenty of value with the two 1st round picks attached to him.

Yeah, I’m happy with Jrue, but I’m not going to pretend that Brogdon plus whoever we could get for Rob plus 2 good 1sts wouldn’t also be good. Brogdon doesn’t suck and people should stop pretending that he does. He just got injured at exactly the wrong time last season.

As for Miami, you’d need to subtract Rozier, Herro, and probably someone like Jacquez. Not saying Jrue wouldn’t be great in Miami, but they would have lost a lot good talent to make that happen

Who is that player in place of Jrue that makes us better than we are now?  Maybe OG Anunoby, but I'm not sure that he adds more as a 5th option than Jrue.  He's younger, but he's about to become way more expensive.  Siakim?  That took Bruce Brown and three #1s.  Plus, the Pacers have been worse after the trade.

[Vermont Green]

I don't look at this as Brogdon vs. Holiday, Holiday is a better player and we are better for sure with Holiday.  If the result was that we just kept the pick (it is #13 right now and may not stay in the lottery), then yes, we are better with Holiday than Brogdon and a pick.  But we also could have traded the 2 picks (don't forget we owe an unprotected 2029 first) and Rob Williams for something pretty good.  Brogdon + a decent player may have been just fine or better than just Holiday.  We have Holiday so that is a done deal and another trade is hypothetical, but there is an opportunity cost you have to account for.

Rob Williams had very limited trade value imo and that has only gotten lower. Even before he was out for the season he was clearly a guy that couldn’t play more than 25 minutes a game

He would have plenty of value with the two 1st round picks attached to him.

Yeah, I’m happy with Jrue, but I’m not going to pretend that Brogdon plus whoever we could get for Rob plus 2 good 1sts wouldn’t also be good. Brogdon doesn’t suck and people should stop pretending that he does. He just got injured at exactly the wrong time last season.

As for Miami, you’d need to subtract Rozier, Herro, and probably someone like Jacquez. Not saying Jrue wouldn’t be great in Miami, but they would have lost a lot good talent to make that happen

No one is saying there is an issue with Brogdon's skills.   There is an issue with his trade value compared to his skill.

I am not sure I understand the distinction you are trying to draw.  If a player has more skill than would be represented by his trade value, than the smart thing to do would be to not trade him.  I think it is true that at the time we traded Brogdon, and maybe still, there was a stigma attached to him that he might be injured or something, the repercussions of LAC backing out of the trade.

But the hypothetical alternative universe that is being debated is if the Celtics kept Brogdon, didn't get Holiday, and then traded Rob Williams (with his own trade value issues) along with the 2 firsts for "something".  How would Brogdon + that "something" compare to Holiday?  Holiday is good, but the reality is that so far, he has not been that much better than what Brogdon did last season.

[Big333223]

I don't like thinking about trades strictly as asset swaps. It's not just about the value of the pieces being moved it's about how those pieces fit into the team. Jrue is not just better than Brogdon, he also fits better with what the Celtics needed. That makes his value to the Celtics higher than his absolute value.

[Donoghus]

Pretty wild to consider.

Sean Grande
@SeanGrandePBP
·
1h
For all the talk the comment got, Lay's potato chips are really good...unless they get crumbled.

Jrue Holiday, about to turn 34, has played more minutes this year than Malcolm Brogdon, Rob Williams AND Marcus Smart combined.

[SparzWizard]

Pretty wild to consider.

Sean Grande
@SeanGrandePBP
·
1h
For all the talk the comment got, Lay's potato chips are really good...unless they get crumbled.

Jrue Holiday, about to turn 34, has played more minutes this year than Malcolm Brogdon, Rob Williams AND Marcus Smart combined.

If we win NBA championship this June, then we win this trade 

[SHAQATTACK]

What has Brogdon or Rob done this year other continue be injured. 

[Neurotic Guy]

I liked Brogdon, but Jrue is so much better in every dimension including chemistry with his teammates. Trades can’t just be judged on outcomes alone. Every trade is a risk, and ultimately it was either worth the risk or wasn’t. This one was worth the risk - even if we end up on the wrong end of the 2028 swap.

As far as Lays potato chips go - a great chip if you like a thin chip, but a little on the salty side. I never met a potato chip I didn’t like. I don’t know if Lays would make my top 5, but sometimes that little bag of Lays on the ride home is just perfect. Dang, I want me some potato chip now.