OJ Mayo to Grizzlies, Kevin Love to the T-Wolves....

[Who]

Okay so I've been thinking about the trade for awhile now.

I think it is a bad mistake from Minnesota despite getting the superior talent. I like Kevin Love and I rate him as the third best player in the draft and significantly superior than the next guy down. Mike Miller was nice too. The fit though .... the fit is just awful.

...

Who - the problem with this analysis, is that Minny isn't close enough to start finalizing the team. Perimiter defenders who can catch and shoot, are actually easier to come by then one realizes, if you are a good team. Guys that can create their own shot are the harder part. At any rate, for Minny its all about maximum talent, best strategic position for now, and as you point out they improved their talent, and as the cap numbers bear out, they improved their overall position.

I'm probably on an island think OJ Mayo is just another a guard prospect and nothing special, but even if he's very good, I don't think he'll be better than Love. I like the idea of them letting things pan out, see what they have in Foye and Brewer and then make adjustments. Not that I trust McHale to make them.

My problem is that it limits their choices in how they build their team. They've backed themselves into a corner and it's not some special love to be there corner, it's a bad corner that you don't walk into to, you avoid that corner.

Now every perimeter player they look at has to be by requirement a very good defensive player because Al and Love aren't going to stop dribble penetration and they're going to have their own hands full trying to battle in the paint against more athletic counterparts. Have a quick flick down some of the top perimeter scorers and a lot of them aren't very good defenders, that pool of good scorers is small enough already before going and making it smaller on yourself.

It's one thing if the Love-Big Al partnership was excellent and guaranteed success but it isn't. It's interesting and there's a low chance it could work but it might work. That's not a lot of gain for giving up a good position.

[Brendan]

I don't think they need top scorers. Posey is an example of a good defensive player who is not that great offensively (PER of 12 this year). Nonetheless he's very useful offensively because he can catch and shoot. Anyways having two big men that can play is better for you in terms of making moves. And I see Miller as a guy who will be re-traded before his deal ends 2010. If they can pickup a solid PF/C who can play defense then their front court is set. [They should see if NJ is willing to part with Sean Williams in their effort to keep shedding cap space. They should also see if Hinrich is available from Chicago.] Anyways I'd rather be stuck looking for a third big man who can play D and a hand full of wings, then looking for a good offensive big man.

Chalmers is definitely a different story, but he's not good enough to reject it outright, it depends on what happens next year with the 2 they got back.

I guess I see Minny as three years away from being able to compete in the playoffs - so they will have a couple more picks to get those wings (probably another top 5 next year and the 30th pick, plus a couple of 2nd rounders) and the year after. Plus whatever they can roll over of whoever they don't keep.

[Who]

You need a quality perimeter player who create offensively to win a championship. Just look at the past 30 years, only one team didn't have a dominant perimeter player and that was the Houston Rockets. What you don't need is two offensive orientated big men who only play mediocre defense ... in those same 30 years no championship team had that.

They're going to need more talent on the perimeter and they've sliced their choices by limiting the type of player they can choose. The Wolves won 22 games last year. It's way too early to be limiting your choices, you don't have the foundation to get away with it. It's a problem, an unnecessary problem.

[cordobes]

You need a quality perimeter player who create offensively to win a championship. Just look at the past 30 years, only one team didn't have a dominant perimeter player and that was the Houston Rockets. What you don't need is two offensive orientated big men who only play mediocre defense ... in those same 30 years no championship team had that.

They're going to need more talent on the perimeter and they've sliced their choices by limiting the type of player they can choose. The Wolves won 22 games last year. It's way too early to be limiting your choices, you don't have the foundation to get away with it. It's a problem, an unnecessary problem.

Wouldn't they be limiting their choices if they had sticked with Mayo just because he fills a need and Love is very similar to Big Al? They have 3 1s round picks, one of them probably a top-3, next year plus a couple of 2nd round picks - they certainly have the tools to move up. It's going to be a draft heavy on guards. They can try to sign Pekovic (and it's laughable how Pekovic is being ignored and guys like Gallinari or Rudy Fernandez, or even scrubs like Bargagni and Ajinca, get so much hype, when Pekovic is the most dominant young big in international basketball since... I don't know... Sabonis and Bodiroga) in 2 years. They can use Miller as a valuable asset. I mean, if they think that Love is more talented than Mayo, and that's definetely arguable, they clearly took the right decision.

[Who]

You need a quality perimeter player who create offensively to win a championship. Just look at the past 30 years, only one team didn't have a dominant perimeter player and that was the Houston Rockets. What you don't need is two offensive orientated big men who only play mediocre defense ... in those same 30 years no championship team had that.

They're going to need more talent on the perimeter and they've sliced their choices by limiting the type of player they can choose. The Wolves won 22 games last year. It's way too early to be limiting your choices, you don't have the foundation to get away with it. It's a problem, an unnecessary problem.

Wouldn't they be limiting their choices if they had sticked with Mayo just because he fills a need and Love is very similar to Big Al? They have 3 1s round picks, one of them probably a top-3, next year plus a couple of 2nd round picks - they certainly have the tools to move up. It's going to be a draft heavy on guards. They can try to sign Pekovic (and it's laughable how Pekovic is being ignored and guys like Gallinari or Rudy Fernandez, or even scrubs like Bargagni and Ajinca, get so much hype, when Pekovic is the most dominant young big in international basketball since... I don't know... Sabonis and Bodiroga) in 2 years. They can use Miller as a valuable asset. I mean, if they think that Love is more talented than Mayo, and that's definetely arguable, they clearly took the right decision.

No it's not

The difference is that they don't close any doors by selecting OJ Mayo. Mayo can play either guard spot. He can play on the ball, off the ball. He plays good defense. They can add any perimeter player and place them next to him. They can also add any big man next to him. He doesn't close any doors.

I don't know a lot of Pekovic and (for some odd reason I'm disappointed there isn't an "r" somewhere in his name, I don't know what that's about) .... anyways. By all remarks he's a steal and the Wolves should be delighted with him. He isn't known for his defense right? So his fit in Minnesota is hampered because now there's not two offensive orientated bigs there's three and still no interior defensive presence. Pekovic makes the Kevin Love decision worse. Because now you don't have a way to fit in your Anderson Varajeo type player in an attempt to shore up your interior, there aren't enough minutes available.

[cmoney]

You need a quality perimeter player who create offensively to win a championship. Just look at the past 30 years, only one team didn't have a dominant perimeter player and that was the Houston Rockets. What you don't need is two offensive orientated big men who only play mediocre defense ... in those same 30 years no championship team had that.

They're going to need more talent on the perimeter and they've sliced their choices by limiting the type of player they can choose. The Wolves won 22 games last year. It's way too early to be limiting your choices, you don't have the foundation to get away with it. It's a problem, an unnecessary problem.

c'mon you're better than that.  Nearly every championship winner has had a dominant big man/front line, save for MJ's Bulls, who happened to have the best player ever, and probably the best wing defender + a great offensive talent in Pippen (edit- oh yeah and the first 3 had solid guys like Horace, and the second 3 had Rodman, who was an insanely good defender/rebounder).   Celtics had the best front line, and I would be hesitant to call Bird purely a perimeter player.  Lakers had Kareem, and Magic was the king of using his oversized frame for a PG to take it in the paint and post up.  Olajuwon (with barely any help the first year, especially on the perimeter).   David Robinson + Duncan (no dominant wing man here either.. sorry Manu wasn't there yet).  Lakers had Kobe, but Shaq far more important. 

Ultimately, to win a championship, you need [dang] good players, and a great defense.  Minny obviously ain't close, but they shouldn't expect to be.  I agree with the poster said that right now, stockpiling total talent is the way to go.  Minny got the two best players in the deal to an already decent core.  They won't be great, they won't even be .500 most likely, but it's a dramatically improved product with lots of flexibility. 

And let's not forget winning a trophy isn't truly the ultimate goal for these franchises.  It's making money.  Championships usually mean money, so yeah, that's where you'd like to get, but it's such a rare thing.  What I'm getting at is, teams can't survive on make it or bust team building.  You can't go 4 or 5 20 win seasons for every decent playoff run.  You have to try to compete while you're rebuilding.  It makes some money and keeps the fans interested.  Sorta like when Danny made the Antoine move and we won in a weak division.  That was good for the owners and for the fans, even though it was a mere burp in the grand scheme of the rebuilding. 

[cordobes]

You need a quality perimeter player who create offensively to win a championship. Just look at the past 30 years, only one team didn't have a dominant perimeter player and that was the Houston Rockets. What you don't need is two offensive orientated big men who only play mediocre defense ... in those same 30 years no championship team had that.

They're going to need more talent on the perimeter and they've sliced their choices by limiting the type of player they can choose. The Wolves won 22 games last year. It's way too early to be limiting your choices, you don't have the foundation to get away with it. It's a problem, an unnecessary problem.

Wouldn't they be limiting their choices if they had sticked with Mayo just because he fills a need and Love is very similar to Big Al? They have 3 1s round picks, one of them probably a top-3, next year plus a couple of 2nd round picks - they certainly have the tools to move up. It's going to be a draft heavy on guards. They can try to sign Pekovic (and it's laughable how Pekovic is being ignored and guys like Gallinari or Rudy Fernandez, or even scrubs like Bargagni and Ajinca, get so much hype, when Pekovic is the most dominant young big in international basketball since... I don't know... Sabonis and Bodiroga) in 2 years. They can use Miller as a valuable asset. I mean, if they think that Love is more talented than Mayo, and that's definetely arguable, they clearly took the right decision.

No it's not

The difference is that they don't close any doors by selecting OJ Mayo. Mayo can play either guard spot. He can play on the ball, off the ball. He plays good defense. They can add any perimeter player and place them next to him. They can also add any big man next to him. He doesn't close any doors.

I don't know a lot of Pekovic and (for some odd reason I'm disappointed there isn't an "r" somewhere in his name, I don't know what that's about) .... anyways. By all remarks he's a steal and the Wolves should be delighted with him. He isn't known for his defense right? So his fit in Minnesota is hampered because now there's not two offensive orientated bigs there's three and still no interior defensive presence. Pekovic makes the Kevin Love decision worse. Because now you don't have a way to fit in your Anderson Varajeo type player in an attempt to shore up your interior, there aren't enough minutes available.

Nah, we'll have to agree to disagree. In their situation, they must add talent and assets to trade. Miller is a valuable trade asset and if they think Love is the best player of the two, it was the right decision. They can get perimeter defenders via draft, trades and FA in the next two years. They can trade one of Jefferson and Love packaged with Miller to nab a superstar. And they certainly like Foye (and they were a .400 team after he came back from the injury) otherwise they wouldn't have traded Chalmers pick.

Also, I don't think Love is such a bad defender as almost everybody. He does have good feet, intelligence and the strengh to hold his position inside. Also the footwork and quickness to be able to step out and hedge the pick and roll anyway. His problem is height, he'll need to play with a taller player along him in certain matchups. But I don't think he's a defensive liability de per si.

Well, Perkovic (yeah, it definetely sounds better) played for the better defensive team in Europe last year. He's solid. But they used zones and I think he lacks the lateral quickness to be a good defender in the NBA. But he's a competitor and a hard worker, I don't know. And he's hard and intimidating, even a guy like Splitter was distinctly scared of him.

[Who]

You see now you have Minnesota trading things to get out of this corner. I'm not wild of the build assets model, especially not when better options are available, it's too dependent on having on the right players available at the right time. It's a quick way to get spanked for having bad luck/timing.

When the option is there the team should look to build up their team.

Also, I don't think Love is such a bad defender as almost everybody. He does have good feet, intelligence and the strengh to hold his position inside. Also the footwork and quickness to be able to step out and hedge the pick and roll anyway. His problem is height, he'll need to play with a taller player along him in certain matchups. But I don't think he's a defensive liability de per si.

I agree with you on Kevin Love. I think he'll be better defensively than most people believe and possibly/probably better than Al next season but I think mediocre defensively is what we're talking about with his future.

David Robinson + Duncan (no dominant wing man here either.. sorry Manu wasn't there yet). 

Good call. That's two teams in the last 30 years without a dominant perimeter player. Now you have me thinking, could include the second Spurs title too, Parker was only putting up 15ppg at the time. Three teams. Hmmm ... great 10% and all you need is one of the best big men ever to play the game.

Unfortunately all 30 of those championships have a quality defensive big man which was the second part of my previous post.

[Brendan]

I'm still not sold - Who - this is like your argument that KG had to change his game and go inside to the post to win. He never did but they win. All the teams that have won titles, save the Pistons (both runs), have had excellent talent. I think talent is more the issue than a specific position. They can bring in anyone they want at the wings, and wings are easier to pickup in FA or trades, which Minny is in position to be.

I agree the build assets and trade is a tough route, but the other route is get an elite player in the draft, and that's just as difficult a road.

[Who]

I'm still not sold - Who - this is like your argument that KG had to change his game and go inside to the post to win. He never did but they win.

The argument was that KG puts the team in a better position to win by spending more time in the post. I didn't want him to spend all his time in the post, simply more time. I still believe that and still want that. Some of the Celtics' best play in the playoffs came from KG playing the post. I also believe it would have been a lot easier for the team in the playoffs had he gone there more.

Hmmm .... Okay I don't know if I can convince you on the Love-Mayo trade. I'll see if I can think of anything else to add but I think I'm done.

I think talent is more the issue than a specific position. They can bring in anyone they want at the wings, and wings are easier to pickup in FA or trades, which Minny is in position to be.

Balance reigns supreme. Talent won't matter if your club is unbalanced and doesn't check enough of boxes.

You can have a team like that very good Dallas club a few years ago with Dirk Nowtizki, Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker, Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels, Tony Delk, Danny Fortson, Shawn Bradley, Eddie Najera, Tony Delk. That was a supremely talented club individually but their collective talent wasn't great because it was unbalanced and lacked several necessary assets to contend.

(repeating myself now) A Love-Big Al opens up the Wolves to similar issues because of the defensive issues. That puts an increased pressure on the quality of your perimeter defense because if anybody beats you off the dribble they're getting an easy hoop. That necessity for perimeter defense weakens the team's flexibility of choosing scorers because they can only add scorers. That pool of choices decreases because of their decision to go Love-Al.

Minnesota in one move just made themselves unbalanced and reduced their flexibility for roster options going forward. That's why I don't like it for them.

If Love and Big Al was some extremely good combination that clearly forms the core of a championship I'd be for it. Say if it were Oden and Aldridge. But it isn't. They've given up a lot and they haven't gotten enough for that.

I think they'd be in a better position with Mayo and Chalmers

[Brendan]

I'm still not sold - Who - this is like your argument that KG had to change his game and go inside to the post to win. He never did but they win.

The argument was that KG puts the team in a better position to win by spending more time in the post. I didn't want him to spend all his time in the post, simply more time. I still believe that and still want that. Some of the Celtics' best play in the playoffs came from KG playing the post. I also believe it would have been a lot easier for the team in the playoffs had he gone there more.

By the way I don't mean that pejoratively - just that its a theory you have and its logical, but I don't think its support empirically.

[Brendan]

...
I think they'd be in a better position with Mayo and Chalmers

I guess I don't see them as the hard to get wings that you do. I think they're commodity guys And I don't think next year's record matters - they should be planning three years out at best, and worrying about wings is tactical I guess we just don't agree.

[BudweiserCeltic]

You can also have Love simply coming off the bench and limit the Jefferson-Love time on the floor through the game.

They're certainly not done trading. I think they'll add another center to keep Jefferson and Love in the PF position for as long as possible. Still, I don't think you really care about fit in this Timberwolves team... they know they aren't going anywhere this year. You worry about fit when you're ready to compete.

What this also lets Minnesota do, is trade Jefferson or Love at some point, without losing much in that position in particular. I think that's always good. I've always felt that the best way to make good trades happen without hurting your team is to first overload in one particular area of your roster with talent.

We'll see when the offseason is done how this all turns out.

This trades are early in the offseason, and the only thing people should focus at this point in time is the level of talent and financial flexibilty a team has. Making judgements or conclusions on what is a bad/good trade based on "fit" this early in the season is completely premature, and that's why you saw last year a bunch of idiotic columns thinking the Celtics will suck because they had no bench. Of course they had no bench, they just finished making the trade... they'll add more pieces. You can't focus on the value of a specific trade until you see how follow-up moves and trades go about.

Come October or so, we should have a better sense if this was a good trade or bad trade.

[Brendan]

TP for BC - making my point! I did say I don''t trust McHale to follow up correctly, but the setup now is better than it was after pick 3 was made.

[timepiece33]

The difference is that they don't close any doors by selecting OJ Mayo. Mayo can play either guard spot. He can play on the ball, off the ball. He plays good defense. They can add any perimeter player and place them next to him. They can also add any big man next to him. He doesn't close any doors.

I understand where you are coming from with Love, though I do believe it offers significant possibilities on the offensive side of the ball.

My question for you.  Does Mayo really have the decision making criteria you want in a PG?  To me, it seems like they'd have just as much lack of flexibility at the guard position if they would have gone down that route.  Utlimately, I believe you'll see Randy Foye at the SG position. 

By getting Miller (who should play SF for them) AND removing that hideous Jaric contract, it helps.