Author Topic: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter  (Read 29932 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« on: May 22, 2008, 10:55:03 PM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 410
  • Tommy Points: 22
The late 3rd and early 4th quarter, when the Pistons extended their lead, was a perfect example of a good time for Leon Powe.  The Celtics were struggling to get points and looked *exhausted*.  Why not bring in an energy guy that can score, will take some charges, and will go really hard for rebounds? 

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2008, 11:36:57 PM »

Offline Triboy16

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1229
  • Tommy Points: 24
because doc is a dummy. Perkins didn't do much tonight. I mean he had what 2 points??

Leon powe vs mcdyess is a better matchup

also when stuckey is out there doc has to put in tony allen. How can u lose trust on a guy who is really good defensively against a perfect match like stuckey

one again doc doesn't reacts to issues about to happen and rather HOPES things will turn out well with the lineup he puts out

Don't be suprised to be back to the garden 3-1 vs pistons, yikes

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2008, 11:41:31 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18717
  • Tommy Points: 1818
The late 3rd and early 4th quarter, when the Pistons extended their lead, was a perfect example of a good time for Leon Powe.  The Celtics were struggling to get points and looked *exhausted*.  Why not bring in an energy guy that can score, will take some charges, and will go really hard for rebounds? 

Because Powe has been a scoring machine these playoffs?

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2008, 11:45:12 PM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 410
  • Tommy Points: 22
When has he even had a chance since early in the Cavs series?  Doc's wildly vacillating substitution patterns are costing the Celtics again, and not just with Powe.

I was not at the game, but people there with a good view of the Celtics bench said that Rivers was freaking out -- we need the coach to be calm and in *control*, not losing his mind at key times. .

The late 3rd and early 4th quarter, when the Pistons extended their lead, was a perfect example of a good time for Leon Powe.  The Celtics were struggling to get points and looked *exhausted*.  Why not bring in an energy guy that can score, will take some charges, and will go really hard for rebounds? 

Because Powe has been a scoring machine these playoffs?

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2008, 11:48:38 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18717
  • Tommy Points: 1818
When has he even had a chance since early in the Cavs series?  Doc's wildly vacillating substitution patterns are costing the Celtics again, and not just with Powe.

I was not at the game, but people there with a good view of the Celtics bench said that Rivers was freaking out -- we need the coach to be calm and in *control*, not losing his mind at key times. .

The late 3rd and early 4th quarter, when the Pistons extended their lead, was a perfect example of a good time for Leon Powe.  The Celtics were struggling to get points and looked *exhausted*.  Why not bring in an energy guy that can score, will take some charges, and will go really hard for rebounds? 

Because Powe has been a scoring machine these playoffs?

If Powe continues to play defense the way he has he doesn't deserve to be even in the floor. He got in, and pretty much the first thing he does is miss yet another defensive assingment, amidst a turnover. Something he has been doing pretty much all season. We can't have that, he has been given enough chances to play... he hasn't done anything to deserve consistent playing time, nothing.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 12:02:54 AM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2008, 12:01:41 AM »

Offline TheShowPowe

  • Xavier Tillman
  • Posts: 31
  • Tommy Points: 6
If Powe continues to play defense the way he has he doesn't deserve to be even in the floor. He got in, and pretty much the first thing he does is miss yet another defensive assingment. Something he has been doing pretty much all season. We can't have that, he has been given enough chances to play... he hasn't done anything to deserve consistent playing time, nothing.
[/quote]

Sorry I messed up the quotes. I don't know how to fix it. But the reason Doc pulled Leon was because Leon got caught guarding two guys and chose one and the other guy scored. Powe hustled back on defense and PJ Brown didn't and that's why the guy scored. Yes, Leon should have opened up and tried to guard both players but it was not his fault he got stuck with two guys. He did a good job getting back on defense and got pulled for it. Big Baby doesn't get pulled when he commits turnovers and goes around hacking people. PJ doesn't get pulled when he is too slow on defense or rotations. It's very annoying to watch because Leon has helped so much when he gets playing time. He is exactly what the Celtics need against Detroit.

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2008, 12:08:57 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18717
  • Tommy Points: 1818
Powe wasn't guarding two people, he was guarding the wrong person... Pierce was there. It was bad transition defense. It's been the story of the whole season though, Powe missing defensive assignments left and right, it's nothing new.

Powe and PJ shouldn't be even mentioned in the same sentence when talking about defense. Davis was a last resort, he had to play somebody. Didn't like what he saw from Powe, so he stuck with Davis... nothing wrong with that. Davis makes better defensive rotations than Powe, that's why he's getting the nod, even though Doc for the most part has given Powe the first chance at trying to have an impact in the game. But you NEED to play defense.

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2008, 12:20:22 AM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 410
  • Tommy Points: 22
With all due respect, you ignored the point the last post made -- Doc judges whether Powe is playing good defense *differently* than he judges whether BBD (since you are very sensitive about Brown comparisons) plays defense.

Additionally, if your argument is true, Rivers must be a miserably bad coach.  After all, Powe got a ton of minutes in the second half of the regular season + the beginning of the playoffs.  If defensive rotation ability is the primary thing that should determine playing time, would you therefore agree Doc was hugely mistaken in the minutes he gave Powe for part of the year?

Actually. . . . I'll admit I kind of wrote that last paragraph in jest, but what do you think of it?  Based on your logic, it sounds like you think Powe should have gotten no minutes all year.  So how do you judge Doc's decision to give him lots of minutes at various points + what are the metrics you would use to decide on playing time.  There are a variety of possible metrics based on various offensive and defensive skills as well as "energy" things.

Finally, when you say "whole season", etc., could you please cite some data or external quotations from experts?   Here is a lengthy quote from John Hollinger over at ESPN.com about how Powe deserves more minutes. 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=Awards_080516

Put Me In Coach Award: Leon Powe, Celtics
Besides Kevin Garnett, the Celtics have four other big men. Of the four, Powe was easily the most effective in the regular season, but he's been an invisible man in the playoffs. Though the other three are struggling, Powe is averaging only 15.8 minutes per game in the postseason. In the past two games, he's sat in the second half while Doc Rivers played Glen Davis and P.J. Brown together.

This is a bizarre move. Powe, who gets little fanfare nationally, was one of the league's most effective power forwards in the regular season on a per-minute basis. His per-40 minute averages of 22.0 points and 11.2 boards jump off the page, as does his 57.2 percent shooting. In fact, Powe's 20.97 PER was seventh in the league among power forwards, outranking All-Stars Antawn Jamison, David West and Shawn Marion.

Given that Powe is both abundantly more effective statistically and has a massively better plus-minus in the postseason than Davis or Brown, it's been an odd choice to say the least. TNT's Mike Fratello alluded to five defensive mistakes Powe made in Game 2 of the Atlanta game during a telecast, presumably because Doc Rivers told him this. But one could also retort by pointing out all of the offensive mistakes that could be alleviated by having another frontcourt player in the game who actually scores once in a while.

Powe wasn't guarding two people, he was guarding the wrong person... Pierce was there. It was bad transition defense. It's been the story of the whole season though, Powe missing defensive assignments left and right, it's nothing new.

Powe and PJ shouldn't be even mentioned in the same sentence when talking about defense. Davis was a last resort, he had to play somebody. Didn't like what he saw from Powe, so he stuck with Davis... nothing wrong with that. Davis makes better defensive rotations than Powe, that's why he's getting the nod, even though Doc for the most part has given Powe the first chance at trying to have an impact in the game. But you NEED to play defense.

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2008, 12:32:30 AM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34023
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
because doc is a dummy. Perkins didn't do much tonight. I mean he had what 2 points??

Leon powe vs mcdyess is a better matchup

also when stuckey is out there doc has to put in tony allen. How can u lose trust on a guy who is really good defensively against a perfect match like stuckey

one again doc doesn't reacts to issues about to happen and rather HOPES things will turn out well with the lineup he puts out

Don't be suprised to be back to the garden 3-1 vs pistons, yikes


Perkins should have played more.  6 rebounds, 2 block shots.  He only got one shot attempt and scored 4 points. 

He was also a + 1 on the court. 

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2008, 12:37:15 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18717
  • Tommy Points: 1818
because doc is a dummy. Perkins didn't do much tonight. I mean he had what 2 points??

Leon powe vs mcdyess is a better matchup

also when stuckey is out there doc has to put in tony allen. How can u lose trust on a guy who is really good defensively against a perfect match like stuckey

one again doc doesn't reacts to issues about to happen and rather HOPES things will turn out well with the lineup he puts out

Don't be suprised to be back to the garden 3-1 vs pistons, yikes


Perkins should have played more.  6 rebounds, 2 block shots.  He only got one shot attempt and scored 4 points. 

He was also a + 1 on the court. 

I'd like to see more of Perkins too, but I didn't mind it as much because I've also liked PJ in there, and that's where his minutes are really going.

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2008, 12:37:58 AM »

Offline WedmanIsMyHero

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 410
  • Tommy Points: 22
I totally agree.  Great point.  On the substitution pattern issue, here is a comment from the Boston Globe's "Green Room"

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/green_room/2008/05/one_won.html

"Leon Powe is on such a short leash with Doc in the playoffs, it's affected his aggressiveness, which is about 99 percent of his game. Once again, Leon got some burn in early in the second quarter only to be pulled for Big Baby after one mistake (a travel after a Pierce feed to the post). I feel like Leon is worried more about staying on the floor than doing what he does … and that is Doc's fault, in my opinion. If P.J. Brown wasn't playing so well this would be a bigger deal."

because doc is a dummy. Perkins didn't do much tonight. I mean he had what 2 points??

Leon powe vs mcdyess is a better matchup

also when stuckey is out there doc has to put in tony allen. How can u lose trust on a guy who is really good defensively against a perfect match like stuckey

one again doc doesn't reacts to issues about to happen and rather HOPES things will turn out well with the lineup he puts out

Don't be suprised to be back to the garden 3-1 vs pistons, yikes


Perkins should have played more.  6 rebounds, 2 block shots.  He only got one shot attempt and scored 4 points. 

He was also a + 1 on the court. 

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2008, 12:41:31 AM »

Offline vinnie

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8654
  • Tommy Points: 429
Powe did little in the few minutes he was in, but Davis was much worse in the minutes he played.  Bottom line, other than PJ, the bech was horrible tonight.

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2008, 12:44:21 AM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34023
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
Powe did little in the few minutes he was in, but Davis was much worse in the minutes he played.  Bottom line, other than PJ, the bech was horrible tonight.


It is time to either play just three big men or activate Scali. 


Neither Powe or Davis are doing anything on defense.

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2008, 12:45:48 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18717
  • Tommy Points: 1818
"Leon Powe is on such a short leash with Doc in the playoffs, it's affected his aggressiveness, which is about 99 percent of his game. Once again, Leon got some burn in early in the second quarter only to be pulled for Big Baby after one mistake (a travel after a Pierce feed to the post). I feel like Leon is worried more about staying on the floor than doing what he does … and that is Doc's fault, in my opinion. If P.J. Brown wasn't playing so well this would be a bigger deal."

This is pure crap if I ever heard one. If a player is going to be this weak, we don't need him in this team. Take an example from Eddie's book. Few times this playoffs has Powe rewarded Doc when he gives him extended minutes. And what Powe has done well during the season, been actively rebounding, he has failed to do so during the playoffs. So then you pile up his lack of defense, and there's no much reason to keep him on the floor and giving him chances. And I very much doubt it was the travel that took him off the floor... it was his transition D. It's not that he commited one mistake, it's that he keeps commiting that same one.

Re: Powe in the late 3rd/early 4th quarter
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2008, 12:51:40 AM »

Offline Chris

  • Global Moderator
  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18008
  • Tommy Points: 642
Powe did little in the few minutes he was in, but Davis was much worse in the minutes he played.  Bottom line, other than PJ, the bech was horrible tonight.


It is time to either play just three big men or activate Scali. 


Neither Powe or Davis are doing anything on defense.

This here is the key.  Powe was sat down after completely blowing his rotation in the first half (he had been slow on the rotation a couple times before, but then completely missed it right before he was benched). 

The Pistons are a team that you can't afford not to rotate on.  They have too many guys who can kill you if left open.