Author Topic: C’s trade for Malcolm Brogdon  (Read 18044 times)

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Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #240 on: July 02, 2022, 01:35:44 PM »

Online Silas

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Anyone know what number Brogdon will wear?  JB has his number 7.  17 was Hondo's.  Maybe 77, and he can be our Luka!
I've lived through some terrible things in my life, some of which actually happened.   -  Mark Twain

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #241 on: July 02, 2022, 03:01:08 PM »

Online libermaniac

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Anyone know what number Brogdon will wear?  JB has his number 7.  17 was Hondo's.  Maybe 77, and he can be our Luka!
Maybe 8. It’s a TD but with the two point conversion. 😉

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #242 on: July 02, 2022, 04:27:55 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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I still can’t believe that the C’s were able to get Brogdon for significantly less than it cost them to get White. I understand that he’s injury prone, but Malcolm is a much better player than White.
agreed.  thought we overpaid for White when that deal was made and this just reinforces it.  White's performance, or more specifically the lack thereof, in the Finals put the nail in the coffin of that deal for me.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #243 on: July 02, 2022, 05:02:49 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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I still can’t believe that the C’s were able to get Brogdon for significantly less than it cost them to get White. I understand that he’s injury prone, but Malcolm is a much better player than White.

I'm not sure that they did. I understand that people made a big deal out of that future swap San An got, but it's highly unlikely to be anything but an on-paper technicality, and otherwise it's just the marginal difference between Richardson and Theis.

That's not to say the Brogdon deal is worse than being presented, people just made too much out of what Boston gave up to get a perfectly good player in White.

Strongly disagree. Richardson was the Celtics 6th man and their best player off the bench when he was here . Josh was shooting 40% from 3pt, with solid defense. I mean, Langford played better than Theis before he was traded and he at least has some upside.

So, my post would have been more clear had I said that the margin was the difference between Theis and Richardson, but there's a reason that Boston got both of them simply by being willing to take on the money they were owed. Neither has very much trade value and they both primarily served as salary-matching in the respective trades.

The two deals were nearly identical: rotation vet, reclamation project, next available first. San An just got the rights to a swap that they're highly unlikely to be able to use.

That’s a big difference, though. Richardson was the 6th best player on the Celtics at the time he was traded. Theis is a 30 year old big who hasn’t played well the last few years and wasn’t even playing most games. He has no value. Langford was the #14 pick in the draft a few seasons ago and he has upside being only 22. Nesmith is about the same age, but regressed from his rookie year and Romeo at least played well enough to see the court while he was in Boston.  The deals were not nearly identical and then you have to add in the swap option that you gave the Spurs as well.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2022, 05:07:50 PM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #244 on: July 02, 2022, 05:09:19 PM »

Offline PAOBoston

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I still can’t believe that the C’s were able to get Brogdon for significantly less than it cost them to get White. I understand that he’s injury prone, but Malcolm is a much better player than White.

I'm not sure that they did. I understand that people made a big deal out of that future swap San An got, but it's highly unlikely to be anything but an on-paper technicality, and otherwise it's just the marginal difference between Richardson and Theis.

That's not to say the Brogdon deal is worse than being presented, people just made too much out of what Boston gave up to get a perfectly good player in White.

Strongly disagree. Richardson was the Celtics 6th man and their best player off the bench when he was here . Josh was shooting 40% from 3pt, with solid defense. I mean, Langford played better than Theis before he was traded and he at least has some upside.

So, my post would have been more clear had I said that the margin was the difference between Theis and Richardson, but there's a reason that Boston got both of them simply by being willing to take on the money they were owed. Neither has very much trade value and they both primarily served as salary-matching in the respective trades.

The two deals were nearly identical: rotation vet, reclamation project, next available first. San An just got the rights to a swap that they're highly unlikely to be able to use.

That’s a big difference, though. Richardson was the 6th best player on the Celtics at the time he was traded. Theis is a 30 year old big who hasn’t played well the last few years and wasn’t even playing most games. He has no value. Langford was the #14 pick in the draft a few seasons ago and he has upside being only 22. Nesmith is about the same age, but regressed from his rookie year and Romeo at least played well enough to see the court while he was in Boston.  The deals were not nearly identical and then you have to add in the swap option that you gave the Spurs as well.
Langford was a throw in and had zero value at the time he was traded. He was a injury prone bust. He was included to make the salaries work. Cs sold high on Richardson who had his best season in several years. I believe White is a better player than both of those guys and with an offseason should be much better next year with the Cs.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #245 on: July 02, 2022, 06:52:55 PM »

Offline bogg

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That’s a big difference, though. Richardson was the 6th best player on the Celtics at the time he was traded. Theis is a 30 year old big who hasn’t played well the last few years and wasn’t even playing most games. He has no value. Langford was the #14 pick in the draft a few seasons ago and he has upside being only 22. Nesmith is about the same age, but regressed from his rookie year and Romeo at least played well enough to see the court while he was in Boston.  The deals were not nearly identical and then you have to add in the swap option that you gave the Spurs as well.

It's not. Richardson's a pretty good backup two guard, Theis is a decent enough backup center. Boston got both for (functionally) free because their teams preferred to be out from under their contracts. Both were beside the point in their respective trades out of Boston - San An and Indy both were just matching money to get a first-rounder.

Romeo and Nesmith we're both throw-ins as possible salvage cases. Romeo appeared in all of four games for San An after the trade.  The only meaningful difference is the swap rights, but it's highly likely the Spurs won't get to use the rights.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #246 on: July 02, 2022, 07:06:27 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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There is a reason Josh Richardson was on his 5th team in 4 years. He just is not as good as some are making him out to be because he just had his career year in three point shooting.

Over the three years before last year, Josh Richardson had a worse three point shooting percentage than Derrick White. Richardson has a career best season shooting from three and White a career worst and suddenly Richardson is the better player?

Not buying that!

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #247 on: July 02, 2022, 07:09:52 PM »

Offline bogg

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I mean, Josh is fine. If they somehow brought him back through the TPE I'd be perfectly happy about it. It's just that for San An that wasn't "the Josh Richardson trade", it was "getting a first for Derrick".

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #248 on: July 02, 2022, 08:05:08 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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That’s a big difference, though. Richardson was the 6th best player on the Celtics at the time he was traded. Theis is a 30 year old big who hasn’t played well the last few years and wasn’t even playing most games. He has no value. Langford was the #14 pick in the draft a few seasons ago and he has upside being only 22. Nesmith is about the same age, but regressed from his rookie year and Romeo at least played well enough to see the court while he was in Boston.  The deals were not nearly identical and then you have to add in the swap option that you gave the Spurs as well.

It's not. Richardson's a pretty good backup two guard, Theis is a decent enough backup center. Boston got both for (functionally) free because their teams preferred to be out from under their contracts. Both were beside the point in their respective trades out of Boston - San An and Indy both were just matching money to get a first-rounder.

Romeo and Nesmith we're both throw-ins as possible salvage cases. Romeo appeared in all of four games for San An after the trade.  The only meaningful difference is the swap rights, but it's highly likely the Spurs won't get to use the rights.

If you think Theis and Richardson are comparable talents, It’s not worth discussing this further.  :-X
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #249 on: July 02, 2022, 08:20:50 PM »

Offline csfansince60s

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There is a reason Josh Richardson was on his 5th team in 4 years. He just is not as good as some are making him out to be because he just had his career year in three point shooting.

Over the three years before last year, Josh Richardson had a worse three point shooting percentage than Derrick White. Richardson has a career best season shooting from three and White a career worst and suddenly Richardson is the better player?

Not buying that!

Agree, and White is an 84% career FT shooter. I believe his 3 pt % will improve. First time on the biggest stage. He'll be better next time.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #250 on: July 02, 2022, 08:30:15 PM »

Offline byennie

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That’s a big difference, though. Richardson was the 6th best player on the Celtics at the time he was traded. Theis is a 30 year old big who hasn’t played well the last few years and wasn’t even playing most games. He has no value. Langford was the #14 pick in the draft a few seasons ago and he has upside being only 22. Nesmith is about the same age, but regressed from his rookie year and Romeo at least played well enough to see the court while he was in Boston.  The deals were not nearly identical and then you have to add in the swap option that you gave the Spurs as well.

It's not. Richardson's a pretty good backup two guard, Theis is a decent enough backup center. Boston got both for (functionally) free because their teams preferred to be out from under their contracts. Both were beside the point in their respective trades out of Boston - San An and Indy both were just matching money to get a first-rounder.

Romeo and Nesmith we're both throw-ins as possible salvage cases. Romeo appeared in all of four games for San An after the trade.  The only meaningful difference is the swap rights, but it's highly likely the Spurs won't get to use the rights.

If you think Theis and Richardson are comparable talents, It’s not worth discussing this further.  :-X

They have comparable value, which is not a lot. Richardson may have more talent than Theis, but he’s a role player… one on his 5th team in 3 years, who didn’t contribute to much winning in his time here.

Citing stats for a 12/3 guy over another 8/5 guy (in fewer minutes) who both belong on the bench and play some defense might be correct on some level, but surely misses the picture in another. There will never be a shortage of rotation guys available for $10M/year that can do what Richardson does.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #251 on: July 02, 2022, 08:40:52 PM »

Offline ozgod

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I look at the roster this way:

Combo PG:    Smart, Brogdon, White, Pritchard
Wings:          Tatum, Brown, Hauser
Bigs:             RWill, Horford, Gallinari, GWill

This is 10 deep with players that can play regular minutes but most of the time, we are probably going to play with 1 combo, 2 wings, 2 bigs.  To balance the roster, we need to swap a Combo for a wing (or just add a wing, that is OK too).  We of course can play with 2 from the combo group and only one of Tatum or Brown (not sure if Hauser will be in the core rotation) but with this group, we end up a little light on shooting if we have 2 of the combos on the court together.  But this would allow the minutes to be spread some.

TP for this. A lot of times we tend to pigeonhole players into the old positions, the 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 and assign them fixed roles based on that. That's not how Brad thinks:

Quote
The new era of the NBA requires versatility to win, and the Boston Celtics are adjusting.

"I don’t have the five positions anymore," Celtics coach Brad Stevens said, per Kareem Copeland of the Associated Press. "It may be as simple as three positions now, where you’re either a ball-handler, a wing or a big.

"It's really important. We've become more versatile as the years have gone on."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2720250-brad-stevens-says-celtics-have-3-not-5-positions-now

With Timelord for example, He's not thinking that Timelord is is the only center on the roster, or even that he's a center. In today's NBA a lot of those old positions are anachronistic now where you have to fulfil multiple roles. Timelord is a big - a more traditional big that doesn't stretch the floor offensively but can come out to do dribble handoffs and set screens, and roll to the rim. Defensively he can defend other bigs, wings and some ballhandlers, and act as a rim protector against dribble penetrators. Meanwhile Al and Gallinari are stretch bigs who can post up and also pick and pop on offense. Al can defend out to the three point line against wings or ball handlers while Gallo is more of an interior defender, earlier in his career he was a lot more like Al. But they can fulfill those traditional big roles defensively as well, rebound the ball, play in the frontcourt. You can play them as the sole big if you have to against certain lineups. In fact Al was our sole big for years and defended the likes of Embiid and Giannis. Then you have GWill who can fill that big role in small ball lineups or play on the wing when there are traditional bigs on the floor, but also defend against bigs.

So with Brogdon, he can handle the ball and play the point if needed, he can play off the ball as a wing, he can defend wings if he needs to - just like Smartacus or Derrick White. It's not what their position is, it's what they can do on the court. Having four guards isn't really an issue to me - I see it as we have four guys who can handle the ball and facilitate the tempo of the game, and of those four three can also play on the wing and either shoot from the perimeter or attack closeouts and get dribble penetration.

So if you looked at it in terms of what roles they can play, you can say:

Combo PG:    Smart, Brogdon, White, Pritchard
Wings:          Tatum, Brown, Hauser, Smart, Brogdon, White, GWill
Bigs:             RWill, Horford, Gallinari, GWill

Huge amount of versatility there, and many more different looks and combinations you can try to find some synergies and chemistry with and that you can possibly throw against an opponent.

I look at this a little differently actually.  Where you list Smart, Brogdon, etc. as Wings in addition to Combo-PG, I don't consider any of these as wings.  To me, if we had a line up of say Smart, Brogdon, Tatum, Horford, RWill, the result is a line up with 2 combo PGs and 1 Wing, not that Smart or Brogdon are a wing.  This last season, our best line up was with 1 Combo PG, 2 Wings, 2 Bigs, but sometime you play with 1 wing, sometimes you play with 1 big, it is just the line up but doesn't change the natural position of the players.  Another example could be Smart, Brogdon, Brown, Tatum, Horford.  That line up is 2 combo, 2 wings, and 1 big.  This line up does not make Tatum a big.

I use Combo-PG as a category where Stevens said ball handler.  Hard for me to say he is wrong; I think my category is a little broader but we are still saying more or less the same thing.  Someone else mentioned a category of "Swing" (PF-Wing combo).  There are definitely players this applies to.  Marcus Morris is a prototypical example of this in my opinion.  Thad Young, others.  I don't consider Tatum a swing though.  He is a wing, one of the best wings in the league.  To me, calling someone a swing is kind of a nice way of saying a tweener, not really either, in a negative way.  Swings can be useful players, especially off the bench, they add versatility, but I would still rather have my principal wings be wings and my principal bigs be bigs.

I guess my thinking on positions has evolved from labelling a player with a position, to having positions that I see players as being able to fill due to their skillset. So rather then label a player as a wing, big or ball handler, I look at those roles and see which of them a player could fill. Because I think some players can adequately handle more than one role well enough to be tasked to do it regularly, rather than pigeonhole them into a position. Hence I think that someone like Smart can be tasked to play as a ball handler in certain lineups, or as a wing in other lineups. Kind of an evolution on the three positions - I see a number of really versatile players as being able to fill multiple positions. I agree though that there's no need to "have" certain positions - teams might play five out and never have a guy posting up or playing near the paint, so that would technically be a no-big lineup, even if that lineup included Tatum who happened to be the tallest guy on the floor.

It was really Giannis' emergence that changed the way I looked at things, because there was one year he played point guard pretty much the whole year. He has also played center, and obviously he has also played wing, and defensively he's been able to defend 1-5. I really feel that that's where the league is heading - positionless basketball.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #252 on: July 02, 2022, 08:47:45 PM »

Offline bogg

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If you think Theis and Richardson are comparable talents, It’s not worth discussing this further.  :-X

Neither is worth a first. Both have been salary-dumped in the last year. They're veteran journeymen, and I mean they're fine as players, but they were both salary filler in the deals that sent them out of Boston where the late first was the centerpiece both times.

Re: C’s trade for Malcolm Brogdon
« Reply #253 on: July 03, 2022, 01:07:42 AM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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 We still need to add a strong rebounder to this team.
We were gouged on the boards in some playoff games.

Ime has to use depth to reduce some minutes next season.
Tatum was exhausted by the finals. Tired legs kills shooting,
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Re: C’s trade for Malcolm Brogdon
« Reply #254 on: July 03, 2022, 10:55:35 AM »

Offline hpantazo

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Does Brogdon basically give us what we had in Hayward, but with better defense and a much better fit personality wise? His ball handling and passing will be huge for this team.