Author Topic: C’s trade for Malcolm Brogdon  (Read 18419 times)

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Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #225 on: July 02, 2022, 09:29:51 AM »

Offline ozgod

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I could see Ime starting Brogdon and Smart. 

Smart
Brogdon
Jaylen
Tatum
Rob/Al

Depends on matchups but I don't see why we wouldn't run that out pretty regularly.  Brogdon is big enough to play the 2 at 6'5", 230 lbs.  Jaylen is 1 inch taller and 10 lbs. less which is an interesting perspective.  Brogdon has some nice size.

I think it really depends on matchups. Playoffs that's a good starting lineup. Historically playoff teams have been smaller.
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Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #226 on: July 02, 2022, 09:56:35 AM »

Offline jambr380

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Wow. So i was very wrong earlier in the thread when i thought extra salary was needed to make this deal happen. God bless our escalating salaries.

And Theis was a sneaky-bad contract. If a guy is earning near $9m he should be able to see the floor in the playoffs. Brogdon at $22.5m is a bit worrisome with his injury history, but dumping Theis helps soften the blow.

I do think Nesmith will be a quality player. But i don't think he'd get the minutes in Boston that he needs. So that + a late 1st is a good price. And we can still compete without Brogdon healthy. With him healthy we're easily in the top tier of teams. We're in a very good spot.

I said it somewhere else, but this is why people shouldn't be upset if we don't use the TPE - because it's like we already did. If we pretend that Brogdon made $17M/yr and we just gave up Nesmith/1st and absorbed him into the TPE, people would be just as happy. In this case, we also cleared the Theis money (but took back some of that with Brogdon's $22M contract).

I actually really like Theis and believed he was getting way too much crap recently - when he was actually the starter during the BKN sweep; but you are totally right about his contract being a little too high. I was worried we might need to attach assets to get rid of his contract, which would have then made the Schroder deal a really bad one.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #227 on: July 02, 2022, 09:56:38 AM »

Offline bogg

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Why in god’s name wouldn’t they bring Smart off the bench? Brogdon is the best guard on the roster behind Brown. Should be starting. Just as good a defender as the “DPOY”.
The day I don’t have to see Smart’s horrific decision making as a main ballhandler…
Pray it’s coming soon

Brogdon's 6'5", a capable enough catch and shoot guy to play with either Smart or White, and regularly breaks down physically. The rotations are simpler if he comes off the bench, he's less likely to have parts start falling off left and right if his minutes are managed, and you don't mess with the chemistry of a group that worked really well without Brogdon. This decision doesn't have to be all that complicated.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #228 on: July 02, 2022, 10:04:52 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Why in god’s name wouldn’t they bring Smart off the bench? Brogdon is the best guard on the roster behind Brown. Should be starting. Just as good a defender as the “DPOY”.
The day I don’t have to see Smart’s horrific decision making as a main ballhandler…
Pray it’s coming soon

Brogdon's 6'5", a capable enough catch and shoot guy to play with either Smart or White, and regularly breaks down physically. The rotations are simpler if he comes off the bench, he's less likely to have parts start falling off left and right if his minutes are managed, and you don't mess with the chemistry of a group that worked really well without Brogdon. This decision doesn't have to be all that complicated.
Plus, you shouldn't be playing your best player out of position and in a spot where he is going to take more damage i.e. Tatum is a SF, not a PF, and you don't want him guarding or being guarded by bigger players for large portions of the game. 
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Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #229 on: July 02, 2022, 10:09:19 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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I still can’t believe that the C’s were able to get Brogdon for significantly less than it cost them to get White. I understand that he’s injury prone, but Malcolm is a much better player than White.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #230 on: July 02, 2022, 10:10:17 AM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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I still can’t believe that the C’s were able to get Brogdon for significantly less than it cost them to get White. I understand that he’s injury prone, but the dude is a much better players than White.

Maybe that's not how all the experts in the NBA view their values? Maybe Derrick White is highly valued in the NBA?

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #231 on: July 02, 2022, 10:34:50 AM »

Offline bogg

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I still can’t believe that the C’s were able to get Brogdon for significantly less than it cost them to get White. I understand that he’s injury prone, but Malcolm is a much better player than White.

I'm not sure that they did. I understand that people made a big deal out of that future swap San An got, but it's highly unlikely to be anything but an on-paper technicality, and otherwise it's just the marginal difference between Richardson and Theis.

That's not to say the Brogdon deal is worse than being presented, people just made too much out of what Boston gave up to get a perfectly good player in White.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #232 on: July 02, 2022, 10:42:50 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I look at the roster this way:

Combo PG:    Smart, Brogdon, White, Pritchard
Wings:          Tatum, Brown, Hauser
Bigs:             RWill, Horford, Gallinari, GWill

This is 10 deep with players that can play regular minutes but most of the time, we are probably going to play with 1 combo, 2 wings, 2 bigs.  To balance the roster, we need to swap a Combo for a wing (or just add a wing, that is OK too).  We of course can play with 2 from the combo group and only one of Tatum or Brown (not sure if Hauser will be in the core rotation) but with this group, we end up a little light on shooting if we have 2 of the combos on the court together.  But this would allow the minutes to be spread some.

TP for this. A lot of times we tend to pigeonhole players into the old positions, the 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 and assign them fixed roles based on that. That's not how Brad thinks:

Quote
The new era of the NBA requires versatility to win, and the Boston Celtics are adjusting.

"I don’t have the five positions anymore," Celtics coach Brad Stevens said, per Kareem Copeland of the Associated Press. "It may be as simple as three positions now, where you’re either a ball-handler, a wing or a big.

"It's really important. We've become more versatile as the years have gone on."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2720250-brad-stevens-says-celtics-have-3-not-5-positions-now

With Timelord for example, He's not thinking that Timelord is is the only center on the roster, or even that he's a center. In today's NBA a lot of those old positions are anachronistic now where you have to fulfil multiple roles. Timelord is a big - a more traditional big that doesn't stretch the floor offensively but can come out to do dribble handoffs and set screens, and roll to the rim. Defensively he can defend other bigs, wings and some ballhandlers, and act as a rim protector against dribble penetrators. Meanwhile Al and Gallinari are stretch bigs who can post up and also pick and pop on offense. Al can defend out to the three point line against wings or ball handlers while Gallo is more of an interior defender, earlier in his career he was a lot more like Al. But they can fulfill those traditional big roles defensively as well, rebound the ball, play in the frontcourt. You can play them as the sole big if you have to against certain lineups. In fact Al was our sole big for years and defended the likes of Embiid and Giannis. Then you have GWill who can fill that big role in small ball lineups or play on the wing when there are traditional bigs on the floor, but also defend against bigs.

So with Brogdon, he can handle the ball and play the point if needed, he can play off the ball as a wing, he can defend wings if he needs to - just like Smartacus or Derrick White. It's not what their position is, it's what they can do on the court. Having four guards isn't really an issue to me - I see it as we have four guys who can handle the ball and facilitate the tempo of the game, and of those four three can also play on the wing and either shoot from the perimeter or attack closeouts and get dribble penetration.

So if you looked at it in terms of what roles they can play, you can say:

Combo PG:    Smart, Brogdon, White, Pritchard
Wings:          Tatum, Brown, Hauser, Smart, Brogdon, White, GWill
Bigs:             RWill, Horford, Gallinari, GWill

Huge amount of versatility there, and many more different looks and combinations you can try to find some synergies and chemistry with and that you can possibly throw against an opponent.

I look at this a little differently actually.  Where you list Smart, Brogdon, etc. as Wings in addition to Combo-PG, I don't consider any of these as wings.  To me, if we had a line up of say Smart, Brogdon, Tatum, Horford, RWill, the result is a line up with 2 combo PGs and 1 Wing, not that Smart or Brogdon are a wing.  This last season, our best line up was with 1 Combo PG, 2 Wings, 2 Bigs, but sometime you play with 1 wing, sometimes you play with 1 big, it is just the line up but doesn't change the natural position of the players.  Another example could be Smart, Brogdon, Brown, Tatum, Horford.  That line up is 2 combo, 2 wings, and 1 big.  This line up does not make Tatum a big.

I use Combo-PG as a category where Stevens said ball handler.  Hard for me to say he is wrong; I think my category is a little broader but we are still saying more or less the same thing.  Someone else mentioned a category of "Swing" (PF-Wing combo).  There are definitely players this applies to.  Marcus Morris is a prototypical example of this in my opinion.  Thad Young, others.  I don't consider Tatum a swing though.  He is a wing, one of the best wings in the league.  To me, calling someone a swing is kind of a nice way of saying a tweener, not really either, in a negative way.  Swings can be useful players, especially off the bench, they add versatility, but I would still rather have my principal wings be wings and my principal bigs be bigs.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #233 on: July 02, 2022, 10:46:32 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Why in god’s name wouldn’t they bring Smart off the bench? Brogdon is the best guard on the roster behind Brown. Should be starting. Just as good a defender as the “DPOY”.
The day I don’t have to see Smart’s horrific decision making as a main ballhandler…
Pray it’s coming soon

Brogdon's 6'5", a capable enough catch and shoot guy to play with either Smart or White, and regularly breaks down physically. The rotations are simpler if he comes off the bench, he's less likely to have parts start falling off left and right if his minutes are managed, and you don't mess with the chemistry of a group that worked really well without Brogdon. This decision doesn't have to be all that complicated.
Plus, you shouldn't be playing your best player out of position and in a spot where he is going to take more damage i.e. Tatum is a SF, not a PF, and you don't want him guarding or being guarded by bigger players for large portions of the game.
Most NBA players say Tatum is PF now that he has bulked up. Perk and Green for sure call him a PF. Tatum is 6'9 in shoes now and will be around 220-225 in a year.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #234 on: July 02, 2022, 10:50:10 AM »

Offline JBcat

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I still can’t believe that the C’s were able to get Brogdon for significantly less than it cost them to get White. I understand that he’s injury prone, but Malcolm is a much better player than White.

I'm not sure that they did. I understand that people made a big deal out of that future swap San An got, but it's highly unlikely to be anything but an on-paper technicality, and otherwise it's just the marginal difference between Richardson and Theis.

That's not to say the Brogdon deal is worse than being presented, people just made too much out of what Boston gave up to get a perfectly good player in White.

Also maybe in NBA circles Nesmith is thought of a little more highly than Langford.

I’d also like to add you need to factor in the timing of these trades. With a trade deadline deal, maybe you give slightly more to secure a deal, whereas an offseason trade you aren’t dealing with a deadline.

Last point you still need to factor in Brogdon’s recent health history.

A combination of all these things were probably thought of in negotiations.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #235 on: July 02, 2022, 10:52:48 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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I still can’t believe that the C’s were able to get Brogdon for significantly less than it cost them to get White. I understand that he’s injury prone, but the dude is a much better players than White.

Maybe that's not how all the experts in the NBA view their values? Maybe Derrick White is highly valued in the NBA?

No way of knowing, but apparently White was highly valued by Brad.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #236 on: July 02, 2022, 10:56:21 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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I still can’t believe that the C’s were able to get Brogdon for significantly less than it cost them to get White. I understand that he’s injury prone, but Malcolm is a much better player than White.

I'm not sure that they did. I understand that people made a big deal out of that future swap San An got, but it's highly unlikely to be anything but an on-paper technicality, and otherwise it's just the marginal difference between Richardson and Theis.

That's not to say the Brogdon deal is worse than being presented, people just made too much out of what Boston gave up to get a perfectly good player in White.

Strongly disagree. Richardson was the Celtics 6th man and their best player off the bench when he was here . Josh was shooting 40% from 3pt, with solid defense. I mean, Langford played better than Theis before he was traded and he at least has some upside.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2022, 11:04:01 AM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #237 on: July 02, 2022, 10:56:30 AM »

Offline footey

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I still can’t believe that the C’s were able to get Brogdon for significantly less than it cost them to get White. I understand that he’s injury prone, but the dude is a much better players than White.

Maybe that's not how all the experts in the NBA view their values? Maybe Derrick White is highly valued in the NBA?

No way of knowing, but apparently White was highly valued by Brad.

By Ime too.

Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #238 on: July 02, 2022, 11:23:30 AM »

Offline Big333223

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Love the deal. This is the kind of deal that I'd see another team do and wonder why the Celtics couldn't have gotten in on it.

I think when (if ever?) everyone is healthy the Smart/Brogdon/Brown/Tatum/Timelord lineup is the best 5 man unit anyone in the NBA can put on the floor. If Horford starts again, I'm guessing it'll be kind of a token position and he'll play a lot of backup big (and fewer minutes).
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Re: C’s to trade for Malcolm Brogdon?
« Reply #239 on: July 02, 2022, 01:32:36 PM »

Offline bogg

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I still can’t believe that the C’s were able to get Brogdon for significantly less than it cost them to get White. I understand that he’s injury prone, but Malcolm is a much better player than White.

I'm not sure that they did. I understand that people made a big deal out of that future swap San An got, but it's highly unlikely to be anything but an on-paper technicality, and otherwise it's just the marginal difference between Richardson and Theis.

That's not to say the Brogdon deal is worse than being presented, people just made too much out of what Boston gave up to get a perfectly good player in White.

Strongly disagree. Richardson was the Celtics 6th man and their best player off the bench when he was here . Josh was shooting 40% from 3pt, with solid defense. I mean, Langford played better than Theis before he was traded and he at least has some upside.

So, my post would have been more clear had I said that the margin was the difference between Theis and Richardson, but there's a reason that Boston got both of them simply by being willing to take on the money they were owed. Neither has very much trade value and they both primarily served as salary-matching in the respective trades.

The two deals were nearly identical: rotation vet, reclamation project, next available first. San An just got the rights to a swap that they're highly unlikely to be able to use.