Author Topic: So far, so good, Brad...  (Read 2998 times)

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Re: So far, so good, Brad...
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2021, 03:12:34 PM »

Offline td450

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“So far, so good” might be overstating it.  We’re a .500 team with no clear future.

Devil’s advocate, but did the Kemba deal make us better long term?  We gave up the #16 pick for a short-term move on a borderline playoff team.

Not signing Fournier makes sense long-term, but that is mitigated by the Richardson and Smart extensions.

So, the negative view: no progress, no improvement for the future, no cap space, no draft pick

And Kemba was bought out for less than Al's total contract (if he's not waived). Sengun or two future 1sts would look pretty nice right now, as well.

I get it, Al's return is definitely a feel-good story and I enjoy watching him for sure, but a mediocre team is still a mediocre team w/ or w/o Al. Hopefully we can surprise everybody this coming month and make a push into relevancy.

Meh, it's not like injuries and the fact that the east is the toughest conference in a long time has impacted the team. I think we should temper expectations right now. Despite the record I've found a lot to like about the team namely the defense.

Perhaps true, but the team isn’t a contender.  Does it make sense to trade a decent draft pick to marginally improve a non-contender?

And for the record, I love Horford and supported the Kemba trade.  But, if it doesn’t help us long or short term, was there a point?

Comparing us to last year means ignoring how severe the Kemba problem was. Last year's Kemba managed to score 19 ppg. That guy doesn't exist today. Horford has made us better and saved us salary. He's a better than average two way big right now. Kemba isn't good enough to stay in the Knicks rotation.

That doesn't mean that deal prevents anything negative from happening like Tatum having a terrible start or Brown getting hurt. If those two round into the same players they were last year and don't improve at all, and if RWill can stay mostly on the court, the C's will be a considerably better team than they were last year.

It was a great deal.

Re: So far, so good, Brad...
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2021, 03:26:09 PM »

Online Roy H.

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“So far, so good” might be overstating it.  We’re a .500 team with no clear future.

Devil’s advocate, but did the Kemba deal make us better long term?  We gave up the #16 pick for a short-term move on a borderline playoff team.

Not signing Fournier makes sense long-term, but that is mitigated by the Richardson and Smart extensions.

So, the negative view: no progress, no improvement for the future, no cap space, no draft pick

And Kemba was bought out for less than Al's total contract (if he's not waived). Sengun or two future 1sts would look pretty nice right now, as well.

I get it, Al's return is definitely a feel-good story and I enjoy watching him for sure, but a mediocre team is still a mediocre team w/ or w/o Al. Hopefully we can surprise everybody this coming month and make a push into relevancy.

Meh, it's not like injuries and the fact that the east is the toughest conference in a long time has impacted the team. I think we should temper expectations right now. Despite the record I've found a lot to like about the team namely the defense.

Perhaps true, but the team isn’t a contender.  Does it make sense to trade a decent draft pick to marginally improve a non-contender?

And for the record, I love Horford and supported the Kemba trade.  But, if it doesn’t help us long or short term, was there a point?

Comparing us to last year means ignoring how severe the Kemba problem was. Last year's Kemba managed to score 19 ppg. That guy doesn't exist today. Horford has made us better and saved us salary. He's a better than average two way big right now. Kemba isn't good enough to stay in the Knicks rotation.

That doesn't mean that deal prevents anything negative from happening like Tatum having a terrible start or Brown getting hurt. If those two round into the same players they were last year and don't improve at all, and if RWill can stay mostly on the court, the C's will be a considerably better team than they were last year.

It was a great deal.

Great deal for this season?

What about for next year?  Three years from now?


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Re: So far, so good, Brad...
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2021, 03:38:52 PM »

Offline todd_days_41

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“So far, so good” might be overstating it.  We’re a .500 team with no clear future.

Devil’s advocate, but did the Kemba deal make us better long term?  We gave up the #16 pick for a short-term move on a borderline playoff team.

Not signing Fournier makes sense long-term, but that is mitigated by the Richardson and Smart extensions.

So, the negative view: no progress, no improvement for the future, no cap space, no draft pick

Counter-point: if the #16 in the hands of the Celtics lands us Aaron Nesmith, or Kelly Olynyk, or James Young, or Romeo Langford, or Gerald Green..... is is really of much value?

I do think there's value in simply moving on from the Walker situation. Again, I'm surprised Presti even did the deal.
quite the range of examples there:
Nesmith - looked like a decent prospect last year.  need to see where he is next year --> always believe in waiting until year 3 for a draft pick to start paying some dividends unless it's a top 5 pick.
KO - the guy is still collecting an NBA paycheck and a productive player.  his problem is that he will always be known as the guy Danny moved up to grab instead of Giannis by a number of people.
Young - bust.  no argument there
Romeo - Kid is showing he's a + defender on a number of positions and has skills on offense.  not seeing a problem with this pick at all
Gerald Green - the high-potential pick the same people who cry over Giannis shouldn't complain about.  kid took a lot of years to develop into a solid player but he was still playing through 2019 until injuring his foot.

Actually i don't think it's a wide range at all. They've all underwhelmed for one reason or another -- especially by comparison to guys taken very soon after them. Not one of them has even sniffed being an All-Star caliber player, or shown such potential -- and Langford (due to constantly being injured) and Nesmith are off to shaky and very shaky starts, respectively.

My point is simple: it's been a long time since a pick in the teens has actually moved them needle for the Cs in any discernible way. We'll see if Stevens can do better than Ainge there, but we've missed in the teens quite a bit in recent years.

====

one p.s. edit here ~~ a) i forgot about Mr. Yabusele.... ooof. But i'll gave the Cs the benefit of the doubt on Terry Rozier, and call him "impactful". Unfortunately, we signed and traded him away for the guy we had to use said 16th pick to dump very soon thereafter.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 03:45:22 PM by todd_days_41 »

Re: So far, so good, Brad...
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2021, 03:45:24 PM »

Online Roy H.

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“So far, so good” might be overstating it.  We’re a .500 team with no clear future.

Devil’s advocate, but did the Kemba deal make us better long term?  We gave up the #16 pick for a short-term move on a borderline playoff team.

Not signing Fournier makes sense long-term, but that is mitigated by the Richardson and Smart extensions.

So, the negative view: no progress, no improvement for the future, no cap space, no draft pick

Counter-point: if the #16 in the hands of the Celtics lands us Aaron Nesmith, or Kelly Olynyk, or James Young, or Romeo Langford, or Gerald Green..... is is really of much value?

I do think there's value in simply moving on from the Walker situation. Again, I'm surprised Presti even did the deal.
quite the range of examples there:
Nesmith - looked like a decent prospect last year.  need to see where he is next year --> always believe in waiting until year 3 for a draft pick to start paying some dividends unless it's a top 5 pick.
KO - the guy is still collecting an NBA paycheck and a productive player.  his problem is that he will always be known as the guy Danny moved up to grab instead of Giannis by a number of people.
Young - bust.  no argument there
Romeo - Kid is showing he's a + defender on a number of positions and has skills on offense.  not seeing a problem with this pick at all
Gerald Green - the high-potential pick the same people who cry over Giannis shouldn't complain about.  kid took a lot of years to develop into a solid player but he was still playing through 2019 until injuring his foot.

Actually i don't think it's a wide range at all. They've all underwhelmed for one reason or another -- especially by comparison to guys taken very soon after them. Not one of them has even sniffed being an All-Star caliber player, or shown such potential -- and Langford (due to constantly being injured) and Nesmith are off to shaky and very shaky starts, respectively.

My point is simple: it's been a long time since a pick in the teens has actually moved them needle for the Cs in any discernible way. We'll see if Stevens can do better than Ainge there, but we've missed in the teens quite a bit in recent years.

Yes, I would rather have a player like that.  It’s at least a minor asset in the future, as opposed to what we’re getting now in the long-term.

Sengun looks useful.  Time will tell if he’s more Erden or Nurkic, but in the long term, Sengun plus Kemba is probably a better play than Horford, no?


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Re: So far, so good, Brad...
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2021, 03:53:12 PM »

Offline td450

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“So far, so good” might be overstating it.  We’re a .500 team with no clear future.

Devil’s advocate, but did the Kemba deal make us better long term?  We gave up the #16 pick for a short-term move on a borderline playoff team.

Not signing Fournier makes sense long-term, but that is mitigated by the Richardson and Smart extensions.

So, the negative view: no progress, no improvement for the future, no cap space, no draft pick

And Kemba was bought out for less than Al's total contract (if he's not waived). Sengun or two future 1sts would look pretty nice right now, as well.

I get it, Al's return is definitely a feel-good story and I enjoy watching him for sure, but a mediocre team is still a mediocre team w/ or w/o Al. Hopefully we can surprise everybody this coming month and make a push into relevancy.

Meh, it's not like injuries and the fact that the east is the toughest conference in a long time has impacted the team. I think we should temper expectations right now. Despite the record I've found a lot to like about the team namely the defense.

Perhaps true, but the team isn’t a contender.  Does it make sense to trade a decent draft pick to marginally improve a non-contender?

And for the record, I love Horford and supported the Kemba trade.  But, if it doesn’t help us long or short term, was there a point?

Comparing us to last year means ignoring how severe the Kemba problem was. Last year's Kemba managed to score 19 ppg. That guy doesn't exist today. Horford has made us better and saved us salary. He's a better than average two way big right now. Kemba isn't good enough to stay in the Knicks rotation.

That doesn't mean that deal prevents anything negative from happening like Tatum having a terrible start or Brown getting hurt. If those two round into the same players they were last year and don't improve at all, and if RWill can stay mostly on the court, the C's will be a considerably better team than they were last year.

It was a great deal.

Great deal for this season?

What about for next year?  Three years from now?

Is a #16 worth more than a high functioning vet leader for 2 years on a team like this? Strong likelihood is yes, but if they would have gotten someone who could break through and become a quality starter then no. I'd like to see one of the last two #14's do that well. We haven't drafted or developed players very well since the Kyrie trade.

It isn't good for a franchise to go downhill either.

Re: So far, so good, Brad...
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2021, 03:53:48 PM »

Offline todd_days_41

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“So far, so good” might be overstating it.  We’re a .500 team with no clear future.

Devil’s advocate, but did the Kemba deal make us better long term?  We gave up the #16 pick for a short-term move on a borderline playoff team.

Not signing Fournier makes sense long-term, but that is mitigated by the Richardson and Smart extensions.

So, the negative view: no progress, no improvement for the future, no cap space, no draft pick

Counter-point: if the #16 in the hands of the Celtics lands us Aaron Nesmith, or Kelly Olynyk, or James Young, or Romeo Langford, or Gerald Green..... is is really of much value?

I do think there's value in simply moving on from the Walker situation. Again, I'm surprised Presti even did the deal.
quite the range of examples there:
Nesmith - looked like a decent prospect last year.  need to see where he is next year --> always believe in waiting until year 3 for a draft pick to start paying some dividends unless it's a top 5 pick.
KO - the guy is still collecting an NBA paycheck and a productive player.  his problem is that he will always be known as the guy Danny moved up to grab instead of Giannis by a number of people.
Young - bust.  no argument there
Romeo - Kid is showing he's a + defender on a number of positions and has skills on offense.  not seeing a problem with this pick at all
Gerald Green - the high-potential pick the same people who cry over Giannis shouldn't complain about.  kid took a lot of years to develop into a solid player but he was still playing through 2019 until injuring his foot.

Actually i don't think it's a wide range at all. They've all underwhelmed for one reason or another -- especially by comparison to guys taken very soon after them. Not one of them has even sniffed being an All-Star caliber player, or shown such potential -- and Langford (due to constantly being injured) and Nesmith are off to shaky and very shaky starts, respectively.

My point is simple: it's been a long time since a pick in the teens has actually moved them needle for the Cs in any discernible way. We'll see if Stevens can do better than Ainge there, but we've missed in the teens quite a bit in recent years.

Yes, I would rather have a player like that.  It’s at least a minor asset in the future, as opposed to what we’re getting now in the long-term.

Sengun looks useful.  Time will tell if he’s more Erden or Nurkic, but in the long term, Sengun plus Kemba is probably a better play than Horford, no?

I follow you. I guess I'm just hardened to assuming the worst in that range. I'd rather have Horford than Kemba and Yabusele or Young, or probably even Nesmith (whose name is getting close to being associated with the word 'sucks').

And let's see if Horford nets us any value in return when his time comes, which i believe it will.

Re: So far, so good, Brad...
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2021, 04:03:25 PM »

Offline Rondo9

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“So far, so good” might be overstating it.  We’re a .500 team with no clear future.

Devil’s advocate, but did the Kemba deal make us better long term?  We gave up the #16 pick for a short-term move on a borderline playoff team.

Not signing Fournier makes sense long-term, but that is mitigated by the Richardson and Smart extensions.

So, the negative view: no progress, no improvement for the future, no cap space, no draft pick

And Kemba was bought out for less than Al's total contract (if he's not waived). Sengun or two future 1sts would look pretty nice right now, as well.

I get it, Al's return is definitely a feel-good story and I enjoy watching him for sure, but a mediocre team is still a mediocre team w/ or w/o Al. Hopefully we can surprise everybody this coming month and make a push into relevancy.

Meh, it's not like injuries and the fact that the east is the toughest conference in a long time has impacted the team. I think we should temper expectations right now. Despite the record I've found a lot to like about the team namely the defense.

Perhaps true, but the team isn’t a contender.  Does it make sense to trade a decent draft pick to marginally improve a non-contender?

And for the record, I love Horford and supported the Kemba trade.  But, if it doesn’t help us long or short term, was there a point?

I think the team sees Horford's leadership more valuable than a draft pick that'll add little to the team.

Re: So far, so good, Brad...
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2021, 04:14:12 PM »

Online Roy H.

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“So far, so good” might be overstating it.  We’re a .500 team with no clear future.

Devil’s advocate, but did the Kemba deal make us better long term?  We gave up the #16 pick for a short-term move on a borderline playoff team.

Not signing Fournier makes sense long-term, but that is mitigated by the Richardson and Smart extensions.

So, the negative view: no progress, no improvement for the future, no cap space, no draft pick

And Kemba was bought out for less than Al's total contract (if he's not waived). Sengun or two future 1sts would look pretty nice right now, as well.

I get it, Al's return is definitely a feel-good story and I enjoy watching him for sure, but a mediocre team is still a mediocre team w/ or w/o Al. Hopefully we can surprise everybody this coming month and make a push into relevancy.

Meh, it's not like injuries and the fact that the east is the toughest conference in a long time has impacted the team. I think we should temper expectations right now. Despite the record I've found a lot to like about the team namely the defense.

Perhaps true, but the team isn’t a contender.  Does it make sense to trade a decent draft pick to marginally improve a non-contender?

And for the record, I love Horford and supported the Kemba trade.  But, if it doesn’t help us long or short term, was there a point?

I think the team sees Horford's leadership more valuable than a draft pick that'll add little to the team.

Has the leadership helped, either this season or in Al’s last season here?

Is the intangible value of that leadership for perhaps two seasons worth more than Sengun?

Some of the counter points above are valid: there is value in keeping your franchise treading water, rather than sinking.  We may be able to trade Horford for some value.  But until shown otherwise, I think the analysis comes down to trading a mid range draft pick for essentially nothing that will make a difference long-term.

If the team shows some thing that it hasn’t thus far, and finishes with a top three seed and make some noise in the playoffs, then I will admit I’m being overly critical. And as I said, I liked the move and really enjoy watching Al play. Kemba is unfortunately broken, much like IT4 before him.  At least with Thomas we combined him with a pick to bring back a player who was a potential star.  Kemba plus a pick only got us an easy to root for former Celtic, and some potential cap relief we immediately surrendered.


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Re: So far, so good, Brad...
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2021, 04:26:07 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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There are aren't that many players out there that you can count on to impact ball movement in a worthwhile way.
Agreed that we desperately need more passing/better ball movement. Udoka regularly talks about ball movement. Tatum and Brown are score-first players. We gotta find a player who excels at moving the ball. Here are some realistic(?) targets:
  • Simmons (not sure whether we can actually get him, but he's definitely available)
  • Kyle Anderson
  • TJ McConnell
  • Tyus Jones
  • Satoransky (his efficiency has plummeted this season, although the Pels are terrible in general)
  • Delon Wright (he's having a poor season too)
  • Rubio (I'm a fan of his game, but he's overpaid. I wouldn't touch him on his current contract.)
My targets would have been Simmons >>> Kyle Anderson >  Satoransky, Delon Wright

And here are some unrealistic targets:
  • CP3
  • Luka
  • Haliburton
  • Conley
  • Ingles
  • Draymond Green

Fwiw,
- We could have traded for CP3 when he was in OKC. I bet he would have transformed us into a legit contending team. Gimme Tatum + Brown over Booker + Ayton. That said, the Suns have two great role players in Mikal Bridges and Crowder.
- We could have traded up for Haliburton in last year's draft. I bet the Kings view him as a future All-Star. Imo, he will never become an All-Star. He ain't explosive enough to beat his opponent 1-on-1, hence he cannot consistently create his own shot. Hopefully, he'll become available going forward if he fails to meet Sacramento's (unrealistic?) expectations.
- "We could have traded for CP3 when he was in OKC" --> based on what provable fact and for what package or are you just passing off your speculation/opinion as fact?
- "We could have traded up for Haliburton in last year's draft." --> again, based on what provable fact and for what package or are you just passing off your speculation/opinion as fact?

genuinely curious if you actually have something to back up those statements which would be good information to know how they had an option on the table and punted on it.
It's just my opinion. Feel free to disagree. Haliburton got drafted at #12. We had #14, #26, #30 and #47. It's reasonable to assume we could have traded up for him. For instance, the Suns selected Jalen Smith at #10 which was considered a massive reach. I bet we could have traded up for #10.

CP3 was considered a negative asset at the time cause of his massive contract. I fully believe we could have acquired him on the cheap either in 2019 or in 2020. Again, just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
my point here would be it's easy to second guess the opportunities that were available but it's just assumptions that Sac was willing to move down (or the Suns).  if they wanted Halliburton, why would they move down?  if the Suns wanted Smith, take him when you can get him.  I hoped they'd be able to consolidate those picks to move up but that didn't come to pass for whatever reason.  Hoped they would have done the same in the 2016 with all those picks that they had no room for which resulted in draft-and-stash picks that were essentially wasted assets.

CP3 as you stated required a trade and he had a massive contract.  what players would have needed to be traded that not only matched salary but would be enticing enough for OKC to make a deal?  We had Kemba those years so it was pointless to make that deal without including him going.  no way the team trades a high-profile FA signing right after they inked the deal not to mention his health wasn't a known concern at the time of the signing so no need to move him.  that's just not realistic scenario for acquiring CP3.
Agree to disagree. Kemba had plenty of issues with his left knee while playing with the Hornets. He had surgeries to repair a torn meniscus in his left knee in 2015, 2016 and 2017. Just because he didn't want to miss games, it doesn't mean he was healthy. After all, he had plenty of time to recover. In his 8 years with the Hornets, he never made it past the first round in the playoffs. Danny should have known better.

Are you seriously questioning whether we should have traded Kemba for CP3 if/when given the chance? If I recall correctly, quite a few posters wanted us to swap Kemba + pick(s) for CP3 in 2020 prior to the Suns trade. We could have also traded for him in 2019 when he was in Houston. He was considered a negative asset at the time. Like you said, most posters were concerned about the optics of trading Kemba.

If the Kings were locked in on Haliburton, it's possible they would have kept their pick. This is why I mentioned the Suns. Jalen Smith was a massive reach at #10. Nobody expected him to be a lotto pick. Chances are he would have been available on the board at #14. For the record, there were three teams between us and the Suns. None of them selected a big man. Highly doubt they would have selected Smith.

Anyway, it is what it is. It doesn't matter anymore. It's just that CP3 is an all-time great. One of the best floor generals of all time. It bothers me to think that we could have put him alongside the Jays.