Celtics Media Day 2021/Training Camp

[Vermont Green]

Tatum will be the starting PF and play more than some there. Not sure why people don't get this. Tatum is the prototypical PF/big wing/stretch 4 in the NBA today. He will probably be playing at around 6'9" 220 this year, judging by the looks of him.

My guess is that the Grant/Juancho/Parker/Hauser(let's be serious, he will be in Maine all year) will be fighting for scrap minutes. Maybe only 15 MPG or so a game.

This always seemed obvious to me before that Tatum would start at PF, but I'm not 100% sold.

The Horford-Amir and Horford-Baynes pairings were starting lineup staples in some of Brad Stevens best seasons, despite the fact that many people wouldn't think it would make a lot of sense on paper before seeing it.

The league has more good bigs as starting PFs than people think these days, especially in the East.  Sabonis, Giannis, Randle, Collins, Zion.  Makes a lot of sense to start Horford at PF in those games, and maybe generally.  Udoka said that Smart is the team's starting point guard.  That makes me think Schroder is coming off the bench which doesn't leave me with a single obvious starting lineup where Tatum is the PF.  I think Tatum at PF is a guarantee if Schroder starts, which I could see happening, but doesn't seem to be the case now.

I do expect Tatum to play approximately 25 out of 35 minutes a game at PF.  Too much of our talent is 1-3 players to not play them and Tatum at PF.  I see Horford with 14 min at PF (and another 14 at center), and Grant/Jabari/Juancho playing about 9 min combined.  (The minutes per game of those bench players will get inflated way up at season's end due to DNPs and when starters miss games.)

Ultimately I won't be that surprised either way if Tatum is starting at SF or PF this season.  But I'm leaning towards SF.

That’s 5 examples out of 15 teams in the East. So according to that, 2/3 of the time Horford would not be a good matchup with the opposing teams PF. I don’t think that Horford would do a better job slowing down Giannis or Zion either. They are a mismatch no matter who you put on them. I think Tatum would do a better job on Collins and Randle as well due to his athleticism. Al should be playing the 5 against 90% of the teams in the NBA.

Even if Schroder comes off the Bench, Tatum should still start at the 4. Starting lineup of Smart, Richardson, Brown, Tatum, Horford is probably the best lineup the C’s could put out there.

If you look at the 14 other teams in the east, the only two teams that don't start a true PF at PF are Nets (Durant) and PHI (Harris).  Orlando I am not sure what they are going to do.  Durant is 6"-10" and kind of a unicorn.  PHI starts Harris, who to me should be a wing, but they tried to use Horford as the PF, paid good money, so it is not like they prefer Harris at PF.  Like the Celtics, they just don't have a starting level PF to put out there.

Giannis (MIL), Sabonis (IND), Collins (ATL), Randle (NYK), Siakam (TOR), Love (CLE), Grant (DET), Williams (CHI), Tucker (MIA), Washington (CHA), and Hachimura (WAS) are all PFs, not wings.

I agree that we are better off not playing Horford as PF, meaning on the court with RWilliams or Kanter.  Those line ups make no sense to me.  And I am fine to play 1-big sometimes.  But I don't buy that Tatum is some kind of prototypical new age PF.  He is a wing, one of the best wings in the entire league.  And we will get the most out of our best player if he can play as a wing.

[keevsnick]

Tatum will be the starting PF and play more than some there. Not sure why people don't get this. Tatum is the prototypical PF/big wing/stretch 4 in the NBA today. He will probably be playing at around 6'9" 220 this year, judging by the looks of him.

My guess is that the Grant/Juancho/Parker/Hauser(let's be serious, he will be in Maine all year) will be fighting for scrap minutes. Maybe only 15 MPG or so a game.

This always seemed obvious to me before that Tatum would start at PF, but I'm not 100% sold.

The Horford-Amir and Horford-Baynes pairings were starting lineup staples in some of Brad Stevens best seasons, despite the fact that many people wouldn't think it would make a lot of sense on paper before seeing it.

The league has more good bigs as starting PFs than people think these days, especially in the East.  Sabonis, Giannis, Randle, Collins, Zion.  Makes a lot of sense to start Horford at PF in those games, and maybe generally.  Udoka said that Smart is the team's starting point guard.  That makes me think Schroder is coming off the bench which doesn't leave me with a single obvious starting lineup where Tatum is the PF.  I think Tatum at PF is a guarantee if Schroder starts, which I could see happening, but doesn't seem to be the case now.

I do expect Tatum to play approximately 25 out of 35 minutes a game at PF.  Too much of our talent is 1-3 players to not play them and Tatum at PF.  I see Horford with 14 min at PF (and another 14 at center), and Grant/Jabari/Juancho playing about 9 min combined.  (The minutes per game of those bench players will get inflated way up at season's end due to DNPs and when starters miss games.)

Ultimately I won't be that surprised either way if Tatum is starting at SF or PF this season.  But I'm leaning towards SF.

That’s 5 examples out of 15 teams in the East. So according to that, 2/3 of the time Horford would not be a good matchup with the opposing teams PF. I don’t think that Horford would do a better job slowing down Giannis or Zion either. They are a mismatch no matter who you put on them. I think Tatum would do a better job on Collins and Randle as well due to his athleticism. Al should be playing the 5 against 90% of the teams in the NBA.

Even if Schroder comes off the Bench, Tatum should still start at the 4. Starting lineup of Smart, Richardson, Brown, Tatum, Horford is probably the best lineup the C’s could put out there.

If you look at the 14 other teams in the east, the only two teams that don't start a true PF at PF are Nets (Durant) and PHI (Harris).  Orlando I am not sure what they are going to do.  Durant is 6"-10" and kind of a unicorn.  PHI starts Harris, who to me should be a wing, but they tried to use Horford as the PF, paid good money, so it is not like they prefer Harris at PF.  Like the Celtics, they just don't have a starting level PF to put out there.

Giannis (MIL), Sabonis (IND), Collins (ATL), Randle (NYK), Siakam (TOR), Love (CLE), Grant (DET), Williams (CHI), Tucker (MIA), Washington (CHA), and Hachimura (WAS) are all PFs, not wings.

I agree that we are better off not playing Horford as PF, meaning on the court with RWilliams or Kanter.  Those line ups make no sense to me.  And I am fine to play 1-big sometimes.  But I don't buy that Tatum is some kind of prototypical new age PF.  He is a wing, one of the best wings in the entire league.  And we will get the most out of our best player if he can play as a wing.

Tatum is REALLY good, hes really good at PF and really good at SF. It's just a matter of what hes best at and how to maximize him.

To me in the ideal case Tatum be a 3, Brown should play the two, and the PF should be a bigger 6'7-6'9 lower usage 3+D wing like OG, Nance, Covington ect. That allows maximum.spacing, maximum switachability and puts more length on the court and keeps Brown/Tatum from having to guard bigger wings as much.

But we dont have a wing like that, the only clear rotation guy bigger than Brown/Tatum is Horford and theres a difference between playing a second big at PF vs playing a third wing at PF. I dont like it as much because I'm not convinced Horford or William's will be able to guard the perimeter effectively. But it's probably worth a shot.

[Goldstar88]

Tatum will be the starting PF and play more than some there. Not sure why people don't get this. Tatum is the prototypical PF/big wing/stretch 4 in the NBA today. He will probably be playing at around 6'9" 220 this year, judging by the looks of him.

My guess is that the Grant/Juancho/Parker/Hauser(let's be serious, he will be in Maine all year) will be fighting for scrap minutes. Maybe only 15 MPG or so a game.

This always seemed obvious to me before that Tatum would start at PF, but I'm not 100% sold.

The Horford-Amir and Horford-Baynes pairings were starting lineup staples in some of Brad Stevens best seasons, despite the fact that many people wouldn't think it would make a lot of sense on paper before seeing it.

The league has more good bigs as starting PFs than people think these days, especially in the East.  Sabonis, Giannis, Randle, Collins, Zion.  Makes a lot of sense to start Horford at PF in those games, and maybe generally.  Udoka said that Smart is the team's starting point guard.  That makes me think Schroder is coming off the bench which doesn't leave me with a single obvious starting lineup where Tatum is the PF.  I think Tatum at PF is a guarantee if Schroder starts, which I could see happening, but doesn't seem to be the case now.

I do expect Tatum to play approximately 25 out of 35 minutes a game at PF.  Too much of our talent is 1-3 players to not play them and Tatum at PF.  I see Horford with 14 min at PF (and another 14 at center), and Grant/Jabari/Juancho playing about 9 min combined.  (The minutes per game of those bench players will get inflated way up at season's end due to DNPs and when starters miss games.)

Ultimately I won't be that surprised either way if Tatum is starting at SF or PF this season.  But I'm leaning towards SF.

That’s 5 examples out of 15 teams in the East. So according to that, 2/3 of the time Horford would not be a good matchup with the opposing teams PF. I don’t think that Horford would do a better job slowing down Giannis or Zion either. They are a mismatch no matter who you put on them. I think Tatum would do a better job on Collins and Randle as well due to his athleticism. Al should be playing the 5 against 90% of the teams in the NBA.

Even if Schroder comes off the Bench, Tatum should still start at the 4. Starting lineup of Smart, Richardson, Brown, Tatum, Horford is probably the best lineup the C’s could put out there.

If you look at the 14 other teams in the east, the only two teams that don't start a true PF at PF are Nets (Durant) and PHI (Harris).  Orlando I am not sure what they are going to do.  Durant is 6"-10" and kind of a unicorn.  PHI starts Harris, who to me should be a wing, but they tried to use Horford as the PF, paid good money, so it is not like they prefer Harris at PF.  Like the Celtics, they just don't have a starting level PF to put out there.

Giannis (MIL), Sabonis (IND), Collins (ATL), Randle (NYK), Siakam (TOR), Love (CLE), Grant (DET), Williams (CHI), Tucker (MIA), Washington (CHA), and Hachimura (WAS) are all PFs, not wings.

I agree that we are better off not playing Horford as PF, meaning on the court with RWilliams or Kanter.  Those line ups make no sense to me.  And I am fine to play 1-big sometimes.  But I don't buy that Tatum is some kind of prototypical new age PF.  He is a wing, one of the best wings in the entire league.  And we will get the most out of our best player if he can play as a wing.

What is your definition of a PF? Some of those guys are more traditional Bigs in the sense that they do most of their damage in the paint, But Tucker, Collins, Siakam, J-Grant, Williams, Hachimura, PJ Washington? How is Tatum a wing, but they are not.

[gouki88]

Tatum will be the starting PF and play more than some there. Not sure why people don't get this. Tatum is the prototypical PF/big wing/stretch 4 in the NBA today. He will probably be playing at around 6'9" 220 this year, judging by the looks of him.

My guess is that the Grant/Juancho/Parker/Hauser(let's be serious, he will be in Maine all year) will be fighting for scrap minutes. Maybe only 15 MPG or so a game.

This always seemed obvious to me before that Tatum would start at PF, but I'm not 100% sold.

The Horford-Amir and Horford-Baynes pairings were starting lineup staples in some of Brad Stevens best seasons, despite the fact that many people wouldn't think it would make a lot of sense on paper before seeing it.

The league has more good bigs as starting PFs than people think these days, especially in the East.  Sabonis, Giannis, Randle, Collins, Zion.  Makes a lot of sense to start Horford at PF in those games, and maybe generally.  Udoka said that Smart is the team's starting point guard.  That makes me think Schroder is coming off the bench which doesn't leave me with a single obvious starting lineup where Tatum is the PF.  I think Tatum at PF is a guarantee if Schroder starts, which I could see happening, but doesn't seem to be the case now.

I do expect Tatum to play approximately 25 out of 35 minutes a game at PF.  Too much of our talent is 1-3 players to not play them and Tatum at PF.  I see Horford with 14 min at PF (and another 14 at center), and Grant/Jabari/Juancho playing about 9 min combined.  (The minutes per game of those bench players will get inflated way up at season's end due to DNPs and when starters miss games.)

Ultimately I won't be that surprised either way if Tatum is starting at SF or PF this season.  But I'm leaning towards SF.

That’s 5 examples out of 15 teams in the East. So according to that, 2/3 of the time Horford would not be a good matchup with the opposing teams PF. I don’t think that Horford would do a better job slowing down Giannis or Zion either. They are a mismatch no matter who you put on them. I think Tatum would do a better job on Collins and Randle as well due to his athleticism. Al should be playing the 5 against 90% of the teams in the NBA.

Even if Schroder comes off the Bench, Tatum should still start at the 4. Starting lineup of Smart, Richardson, Brown, Tatum, Horford is probably the best lineup the C’s could put out there.

If you look at the 14 other teams in the east, the only two teams that don't start a true PF at PF are Nets (Durant) and PHI (Harris).  Orlando I am not sure what they are going to do.  Durant is 6"-10" and kind of a unicorn.  PHI starts Harris, who to me should be a wing, but they tried to use Horford as the PF, paid good money, so it is not like they prefer Harris at PF.  Like the Celtics, they just don't have a starting level PF to put out there.

Giannis (MIL), Sabonis (IND), Collins (ATL), Randle (NYK), Siakam (TOR), Love (CLE), Grant (DET), Williams (CHI), Tucker (MIA), Washington (CHA), and Hachimura (WAS) are all PFs, not wings.

I agree that we are better off not playing Horford as PF, meaning on the court with RWilliams or Kanter.  Those line ups make no sense to me.  And I am fine to play 1-big sometimes.  But I don't buy that Tatum is some kind of prototypical new age PF.  He is a wing, one of the best wings in the entire league.  And we will get the most out of our best player if he can play as a wing.

I don't think anyone is calling for him to play as a PF on offence. He plays like a big wing on offence, too quick for bigger guys and too powerful for smaller ones. On defence he kind of plays PF, inasmuch as he typically lines up on the 2nd tallest opposition player. However, Brown tends to take the match-up if they're really good so that Tatum can focus on his disruptive team defence.

But most of the PFs you listed above are all guys Tatum can easily cover. Giannis, Sabonis and Randle as the obvious exceptions.

[tenn_smoothie]

Comments I have heard from Udoka have been encouraging, specifically talking about an emphasis on defense and ball movement.

Jaylen Brown has made statements about his desire to play for Coach Udoka and the importance he places on the Celtics' head coach being black. At his camp presser, Brown went on about how much respect he has for him, how bought in he is, how the coach has his full attention. That's all well and good, though maybe a bit much given that they had not rolled out their first practice ball at the time. I realize he has worked with Udoka as an assistant on international teams, so let's hope the relationship works out.

Listening to how strongly Brown's devotion to his new coach was made me wonder about his attitude towards Brad Stevens.......... Was he not so bought in, not so full of respect ? It came off to me as a bit disrespectful to his former coach. After all, Stevens was a big reason that Boston drafted Brown so highly and saw talent in the guy that the rest of the league apparently did not. Then Stevens coached him into an all-star level player. Does Brown have all this respect because Udoka is a strong coach or because he is black ?

No doubt I'll be ripped to shreds for my suggestions here ...............
though Jaylen's tendency towards pseudo-intellectual, political posing wears a little thin sometimes.

[nickagneta]

Comments I have heard from Udoka have been encouraging, specifically talking about an emphasis on defense and ball movement.

Jaylen Brown has made statements about his desire to play for Coach Udoka and the importance he places on the Celtics' head coach being black. At his camp presser, Brown went on about how much respect he has for him, how bought in he is, how the coach has his full attention. That's all well and good, though maybe a bit much given that they had not rolled out their first practice ball at the time. I realize he has worked with Udoka as an assistant on international teams, so let's hope the relationship works out.

Listening to how strongly Brown's devotion to his new coach was made me wonder about his attitude towards Brad Stevens.......... Was he not so bought in, not so full of respect ? It came off to me as a bit disrespectful to his former coach. After all, Stevens was a big reason that Boston drafted Brown so highly and saw talent in the guy that the rest of the league apparently did not. Then Stevens coached him into an all-star level player. Does Brown have all this respect because Udoka is a strong coach or because he is black ?

No doubt I'll be ripped to shreds for my suggestions here ...............
though Jaylen's tendency towards pseudo-intellectual, political posing wears a little thin sometimes.

I think this says more about you than Jaylen.

It is quite possible and extremely likely for Jaylen to feel it important for more black coaches to be hired, to be excited to work with the man, Ime Udoka, because he has had a great experience with him already and for Jaylen to have a lot of love and respect for Brad Stevens.

It is possible to have an opinion on racial hiring practices and still treat, interact and work with people based on them being people, not white people or black people.

And as for the pseudo-intellectual comment, you must never have heard him speak on a number of various topics or read some of the speeches he has given at prestigious universities and seminars. The kid is legit intelligent. There is no pseudo anything.

Kyrie Irving....pseudo-intellectual. Jaylen....real intellectual.

Also, has anyone ever used the term pseudo-intellectual to describe a white person? Just wondering.

[action781]

I agree that we are better off not playing Horford as PF, meaning on the court with RWilliams or Kanter.  Those line ups make no sense to me.  And I am fine to play 1-big sometimes.  But I don't buy that Tatum is some kind of prototypical new age PF.  He is a wing, one of the best wings in the entire league.  And we will get the most out of our best player if he can play as a wing.

I agree with you on Tatum being best used as a wing. 

I'm curious why you think a lineup of Smart-Jaylen-Tatum-Horford-Rob Williams makes no sense.  A lineup of Rozier-Jaylen-Tatum-Horford-Baynes made it to game 7 of the ECF.

[Celtics2021]

I agree that we are better off not playing Horford as PF, meaning on the court with RWilliams or Kanter.  Those line ups make no sense to me.  And I am fine to play 1-big sometimes.  But I don't buy that Tatum is some kind of prototypical new age PF.  He is a wing, one of the best wings in the entire league.  And we will get the most out of our best player if he can play as a wing.

I agree with you on Tatum being best used as a wing. 

I'm curious why you think a lineup of Smart-Jaylen-Tatum-Horford-Rob Williams makes no sense.  A lineup of Rozier-Jaylen-Tatum-Horford-Baynes made it to game 7 of the ECF.

Al Horford at 31 is not the same thing as Al Horford at 35.

[action781]

Kyrie Irving....pseudo-intellectual. Jaylen....real intellectual.

^This.

And my psuedo-intellectual power rankings does include 2 white guys:
1) Kyrie Irving
2) Malcolm Gladwell
3) Simon Sinek

[Emmette Bryant]

No doubt I'll be ripped to shreds for my suggestions here ...............
though Jaylen's tendency towards pseudo-intellectual, political posing wears a little thin sometimes.

Interesting theory, southern man.

Jaylen Brown speaks five languages, is the captain of the chess club, and likes to write poetry.

Sounds kind of smart to me.

[gouki88]

No doubt I'll be ripped to shreds for my suggestions here ...............
though Jaylen's tendency towards pseudo-intellectual, political posing wears a little thin sometimes.

Interesting theory, southern man.

Jaylen Brown speaks five languages, is the captain of the chess club, and likes to write poetry.

Sounds kind of smart to me.

I do like the implication that progressiveness and intellect are mutually exclusive. Very funny stuff

[Roy H.]

I like Jaylen’s intellectual curiosity.  He wants to learn.  He also has broad, non-stereotypical interests, and cares about being socially conscious.  All are good things.

But, I don’t see him as an “intellectual”.  Similarly, I don’t see him as the “smartest player in the NBA”.  He had a 2.9 GPA in high school.  His language skills sometimes show poor grammar and syntax.  He’s above average intelligence compared to the average person, but nothing particularly stands out as brilliant.

I think there’s a tendency to exaggerate.  He becomes “captain of the chess club” (true, in middle school).  He “speaks five languages” (not true.  He speaks English, learned Spanish, and hopes to learn three others, including Arabic).   He’s the smartest, most intellectual player in the NBA.  (Malcolm Brogdon?)

To me, Jaylen is more like a guy on a journey to expand his horizons.  That’s awesome, but he’s not a finished product. 

[Rondo9]

I like Jaylen’s intellectual curiosity.  He wants to learn.  He also has broad, non-stereotypical interests, and cares about being socially conscious.  All are good things.

But, I don’t see him as an “intellectual”.  Similarly, I don’t see him as the “smartest player in the NBA”.  He had a 2.9 GPA in high school.  His language skills sometimes show poor grammar and syntax.  He’s above average intelligence compared to the average person, but nothing particularly stands out as brilliant.

I think there’s a tendency to exaggerate.  He becomes “captain of the chess club” (true, in middle school).  He “speaks five languages” (not true.  He speaks English, learned Spanish, and hopes to learn three others, including Arabic).   He’s the smartest, most intellectual player in the NBA.  (Malcolm Brogdon?)

To me, Jaylen is more like a guy on a journey to expand his horizons.  That’s awesome, but he’s not a finished product.

American public education system is thrash and besides we really shouldn't be judging a players intellect through GPA anyway.

[Celtics2021]

I like Jaylen’s intellectual curiosity.  He wants to learn.  He also has broad, non-stereotypical interests, and cares about being socially conscious.  All are good things.

But, I don’t see him as an “intellectual”.  Similarly, I don’t see him as the “smartest player in the NBA”.  He had a 2.9 GPA in high school.  His language skills sometimes show poor grammar and syntax.  He’s above average intelligence compared to the average person, but nothing particularly stands out as brilliant.

I think there’s a tendency to exaggerate.  He becomes “captain of the chess club” (true, in middle school).  He “speaks five languages” (not true.  He speaks English, learned Spanish, and hopes to learn three others, including Arabic).   He’s the smartest, most intellectual player in the NBA.  (Malcolm Brogdon?)

To me, Jaylen is more like a guy on a journey to expand his horizons.  That’s awesome, but he’s not a finished product.

American public education system is thrash and besides we really shouldn't be judging a players intellect through GPA anyway.

Yeah.  I had sub 3.0 in one of the worst public school systems in the country.  Was still top 20 my class.  Got into multiple Top 30 universities (US News) with good test scores.  Nearly failed out of college because my high school just tried to get kids to graduate, and had no concept of college prep.  Figured things out by the end of it all, pursued graduate school, and am now a relative expert who’s work has been cited by others.

High school GPA isn’t the be-all, end-all.  Especially for those of us who went to abjectly horrible inner-city schools.

Jaylen seems both intelligent and intellectually curious, whatever high school successes or failures he had.

[Roy H.]

American public education system is thrash

I guess it depends where you go.  I was publicly educated K-12, from NH to NY to OR to ME.  I thought it got the job done.  And I graduated with a 3.9 on a non-weighted 4.0 scale.  I applied myself, and thought most of the curriculum was fine.

Jaylen’s high school (Wheeler) isn’t some slum school with terrible test scores and a failing student body:

https://www.niche.com/k12/search/college-prep-public-high-schools/s/georgia/

They’re ranked 16th there.  I just wonder how much this stuff is “soft bigotry of low expectations” at work.  Jaylen is smart.  I don’t understand why that can’t be good enough, without overinflating him into somebody he isn’t.