2021 CB Roster Thread

[action781]

So, it’s a given that Minnesota  will give up a lot of points.  They’re definitely not a “balanced” team.  But, who stops them?  I can’t imagine having to stop Embiid, Beal and Young, with high efficiency guys like Collins, Barnes and Bogs.  If nothing else, that team will live at the line.  Embiid (1st), Beal (6th) and Yound (4th) were all top-6 in FTAs.

The team definitely has a ton of offensive firepower.  The thing I just don't see is how well they all fit together -- especially Trae and Embiid.  Who does the offense run through?  My gut tells me Trae.  Trae operates best in a PnR, but is Embiid the athletic roller that Capela is?

I think actually if the offense were to run through Embiid, the fits around him are all perfect.  But my gut tells me the offense runs through Trae.  Why else have Trae on the team if not, right?

It's just a team that I look at and can't immediately envision their roles and how they all mesh.  I also think Beal is a generally overrated player who is the best with the ball in his hands which I don't see happening a lot here.

They are all very good at getting to the foul line, but the free throw attempt argument is all based around usage.  They also happen to be the #1, #3, and #6 players in the league in usage, which cannot be replicated on this team.  Durant and Harden both are better at getting to the foul line than all 3 of those guys, even though they each averaged fewer ft attempts per game than all of them.

[Who]

RE: Draymond & Zion as compare and contrast

Before this draft there was another thread where I was asked what type of big man paired best with Draymond Green. As I thought about that I realized it wasn't the big man pairing with Draymond that concerned me but the perimeter player pairings.

The reason being (1) On defense, Draymond is so brllliant and well rounded that he can basically play with anyone (2) On offense,  I view Draymond as a ball-handling and playmaker on offense so his strengths intertwine more with guards than big men.

Basically, I worried about Draymond would fit next to a ball dominant perimeter player like LeBron or Luka. I feel Steph and his ability to play off the ball for a large chunk of his offense is magic next to Draymond whereas a ball-dominant guard or forward will lead to problems. Why? Because of Draymond's limited ability as a finisher. He is not a spot up shooter. He is not a rim runner. He is not a finish above the rim sort of guy. He is more of a passer.

This is where I see a key difference in Draymond vs Zion. Zion is an elite finisher. He is almost unstoppable going to the basket and he is such incredible athleticism and body control that if he is given any sort of lane-way to the basket Zion can figure out a way to get to the rim. Draymond is not as athletic or powerful, not as good at getting to the rim or FT line, or at finishing at the rim. Neither guy is much of a spot up shooter but Zion is such a crafty and physical force driving (or rolling) to the basket that he can play off of ball-dominant guards or forwards.

It was one of the things I was thinking about in terms of drafting Draymond prior to the draft. What type of stars does he pair next to? What type of stars may he see a drop-off playing next to?

I did not like him next to Luka, LeBron or Harden (ball-dominant playmakers). I also did not like him next to an interior scorer like Embiid or Giannis. It was interesting to me how few of top picks in the draft were good fits for Draymond's offensive game.

[Moranis]

I’m surprised to see Toronto listed as a candidate for best team, and I’m also a bit surprised to see fairly little love for San Antonio (in particular from one of Lebron’s #1 fans).  Same with Minnesota, but I think a lot of folks explained they’re just down on Trae Young.

I agree with the praise for Milwaukee and Indiana.

I don't like Ingram and Jonas surrounding Lebron at all and am not really a fan of Jrue/Lebron either.  Brown is the only guy starting that I think works well with Lebron and because of roster construction neither one is playing SF, which is just weird.  I just don't like how that team was set up.  The bench players I think actually work a lot better i.e. Seth Curry, Joe Harris, Robert Williams (and even Morris), that is such a talent downgrade you can't do that, which is why I really dislike that team.  Like I really think the Spurs most effectively lineup would be Curry, Harris, Brown, James, and Williams.  That lineup has much better spacing because they are all much better passers and shooters than their counterparts.  Lebron just isn't good enough anymore to carry that lesser talented unit like he could in years past against the competition you see in a 12 team league.

I like Toronto because I think Harden and Zion would work very well together and I really like the supporting cast.  Lowry is the perfect type of player to put next to Harden, i.e. a tough gritty defender that can shoot and play without the ball offensively.  Robinson is such an elite shooter that even though he has less talent than many SF's, I just think he fits and will excel bombing 3's all game.  Vucevic also a guy that I think would pair well with Zion down low.  Then on the bench you add a playmaker like LaMelo, a pure scorer like Edwards, the opposite of Robinson in Hunter, and then a solid all around guy like Jackson (who I think you could pair with either Zion or Nikola), the really underrated Warren, and a solid if not spectacular big in Bryant.  I just liked how that team came together and think there was a real thought to the type of players being added to James and Zion.   

[Who]

My view on defense

So I am having a look at these rosters and I all except for one team fitting into the regular pack of IRL NBA defenses. Some are high quality defenses, others are above average, middling or poor defensive teams. But they are all within the realms of IRL level defenses.

So that leaves me with two thoughts:

(1) There was one team who have an abnormally good defensive team. That is Oklahoma City Thunder

G: Conley
G: VanVleet
F: Jimmy Butler
F: Draymond Green
C: Anthony Davis, Christian Wood

I am amazed at the defensive quickness and quick hands that this team has. They are going to be absolutely elite -- on a tier all to themselves -- in terms of forcing turnovers and overall defensive effectiveness.

The thought of Conley, VanVleet and Jimmy Butler harassing ball-handlers on the perimeter and actively playing in the passing lanes looking for steals is a terrifying defensive combo.

Then behind them you have Anthony Davis who is the for my money the most versatile defensively talented big man in the game today. Standing alongside him is multiple DPOY winner Draymond Green and platooning behind / alongside them is Christian  Wood who is a quick defensively versatile big man. That allows them to keep two bigs on the floor at all times to maintain defensive integrity both at the rim in terms of shot-blocking and on the perimeter (quick footed good on perimeter defenders).

That is an incredible 1-2 punch on defense of quick footed quick handed perimeter guys with quick mobile shot-blocking bigs cleaning up behind them.

(2) The second thought is different. So if 1 of 12 teams is abnormally good on defense but the other 11 of 12 are IRL level defenses ... what about the offenses?

There are clearly multiple teams with offenses that are unreal. Unstoppable level good. How do those offensive teams stack up against IRL level defenses? I say they destroy them.


I look at in IRL Brooklyn Nets. They are the best offensive team in the league by a good margin but a below average defensive team and - when healthy - I don't think anyone IRL NBA can beat them.

I wonder about how much this relates to this CB league where we have unbelievably dominant offensive teams. Abnormally dominant offensive teams. Versus regular IRL level defenses.

Frankly, I think that they wipe the floor with them.

How do you stop Toronto? They have Harden & Zion who are both close to unstoppable in a five-out offense with D.Robinson, Lowry and Vucevic as supporting offensive players. How do you stop that?

How do you stop Memphis? They put you in a high PnR with Lillard and Towns and also can play five out with Randle, SGA and Mikal Bridges. How do you stop them? You can't.

I don't see normal level defenses having the argument over abnormally dominant offenses. I only see the defense being the separating factor between teams if that strong IRL defensive team has an abnormally dominant offense (or close to it) also.

And the only team I can see that has an abnormally dominant defense to argue with against these top offenses is Oklahoma City which makes them fascinating to me.

[Who]

I’m surprised to see Toronto listed as a candidate for best team, and I’m also a bit surprised to see fairly little love for San Antonio (in particular from one of Lebron’s #1 fans).  Same with Minnesota, but I think a lot of folks explained they’re just down on Trae Young.

I agree with the praise for Milwaukee and Indiana.

I don't like Ingram and Jonas surrounding Lebron at all and am not really a fan of Jrue/Lebron either.  Brown is the only guy starting that I think works well with Lebron and because of roster construction neither one is playing SF, which is just weird.  I just don't like how that team was set up.  The bench players I think actually work a lot better i.e. Seth Curry, Joe Harris, Robert Williams (and even Morris), that is such a talent downgrade you can't do that, which is why I really dislike that team.  Like I really think the Spurs most effectively lineup would be Curry, Harris, Brown, James, and Williams.  That lineup has much better spacing because they are all much better passers and shooters than their counterparts.  Lebron just isn't good enough anymore to carry that lesser talented unit like he could in years past against the competition you see in a 12 team league.

That is interesting. I share many of the same questions / issues. I am still very high on San Antonio despite those issues but those issues do stop me from automatically putting them near the top.

Memphis and Milwaukee are the two teams that jump out at me as special at first blush.

Before this draft started I noted several players I did not like as finishing pieces on a team (4th/5th starters) -- and I actually ended up drafting one to finish my team despite this ... idiot that I am!

I forget who all of the players were but they were usually offensive wings/forwards that need shots/touches and do not provide much defense. Michael Porter Jr is the guy on my team I had on my do not draft list. Ingram and John Collins were two others. Not so much do not draft under any circumstances but beware the value is less than it appears and they are not easy fits on teams (while maintaining value).

In terms of Ingram next to LeBron, Ingram is still figuring out how to impact winning. He has loads of talent but he is still trying to figure out how to best use those talents to win games. He still cannot defend anyone. He needs a lot of touches and shots. I'm not sure how well he will play off of a heavy usage ball-dominant player. Ingram to me seems more like the type who needs to be in a more decentralized offense or have the offense run through him. He doesn't know how to fit next to people and can get lost (passive). He is not a natural off-ball player. He is an on-ball guy.

Jonas Valanciunas was a pick that surprised me. I had him as bench big in this. I thought Nick might take him early and use him as a 6th man behind a defensive big. I thought Jonas could be a wrecking ball in that role. Still, a good player.

I do not know what to say exactly about Jrue. I like it and I don't like it. I'm not sure how to put it. When I was doing a mock draft and trying to figure out where to value Jrue - he was a player that made me nervous. I thought he'd get overvalued and go to early and was dodgy value until late 3rd / early 4th. That said, I love the defensive fit of Jrue, Jaylen and LeBron.

I share Moranis concerns with Jrue's jumper. At times he is a very good shooter and he convinces completely but then he becomes merely adequate and for long stretches. Jrue's struggles with his jumper caused a lot of problems for IRL Milwaukee in the playoffs.

Overall, it is a team I really like. It is very strong.

LeBron will be very difficult to handle with three skilled perimeter threats next to him and a strong big man finisher like Jonas in the paint. Tough to matchup effectively against because of their speed & guard-type skills at the two forward slots and big powerful two way guards.

G: Jrue
G: Jaylen
F: Ingram
F: LeBron
C: Jonas

But it doesn't jump off the page as "best in class" the same way that Milwaukee or Memphis do for many of the reasons that Moranis mentioned.

That said, I'm not sure they are that far off either. That team is a load.

[Moranis]

Memphis is so bad defensively I can't take them seriously as a contender in this. They can certainly score, but I don't think they even have the best offense, so when coupled with their awful defense, I just don't see them as threat.

[Roy H.]

Memphis is so bad defensively I can't take them seriously as a contender in this. They can certainly score, but I don't think they even have the best offense, so when coupled with their awful defense, I just don't see them as threat.

That was sort of my take as well.  If you’re an offense only team, you have to have the best offense.  Otherwise, it’s important to at least have credible defense, particularly up front.  It’s why I didn’t have Memphis in my top four.

I’m curious, though.  Swap out Towns for Jokic (obviously not available) and Bridges for Bogdan Bogdonavic.   Where does an all-offense team like that project?

[action781]

@Who, I thought OKC was a top two defense when I first glanced at the list, but I thought Indiana might actually have the best defense.  2-4 they are great with PG13, Tatum, and Siakam.  At PG they have two above average defenders in Dejounte and Lonzo.  That's a long and athletic 1-4 which will play great help defense I think.  At center, they are kind of weak with Sabonis but have Jarrett Allen behind him who is pretty good.  It won't be easy to score on Indy, IMO.

After that, the best defenses are:
-San Antonio.  I think a lot of people might look at Val and Ingram and write them off here.  But Jrue is elite at guarding the 1.  Jaylen and Lebron can guard anybody 2-4, so Ingram gets the easiest assignment of 2-4 which helps hide him.  Val isn't great defensively, but Time Lord is and I expect him to play half the minutes and in crunch time.  So I like this team defensively.
-GSW.  Average defensive point guard with a great 2-5 and one of the best defenders in the NBA off the bench.

I don't think OKC is really that far above Indy, San Antonio, or GSW. 

I think it's those 4 teams, then a drop off to the tier of Milwaukee, Houston, and Brooklyn.  Then 5 teams that don't really care about defense.

[gouki88]

It's my opinion that questions of fit are quite irrelevant when you're talking about top 20 players, like debating whether players will have the ball enough (Beal was an All-Star alongside John Wall, with a much lower usage, for example) to perform as they do IRL. In my opinion, talent trumps fit.

Brooklyn succeeded in real life despite, on paper, that fit looking quite weird. Harden succeeded with Chris Paul despite them both being at their best running the offence. Oscar Robertson succeeded with Kareem, Dandridge and McGlocklin despite taking on a totally different role (and in my post detailing my team philosophy, I identified the 71 Bucks as a team my own team will emulate on offence).

It's definitely not a balanced squad. If I wanted balanced I would have drafted JB over Beal and someone like Lowry instead of Trae Young. But the idea of making a team impossible to defend, which my squad is, appealed to me. Even the OKC defence would have serious trouble, chiefly because of Embiid.

This is mainly addressed to action: Embiid is the focal point of the offence. I've said it before, but Young's role is to feed Embiid at his best spots - in the low and mid post. Obviously, there will be possessions where Beal gets the opportunity to attack his own defender, either with movement off ball or off the dribble, and Young will be there to serve it up on a platter to him as well. Young is a chucker IRL because he has to be for his team to have any hope of succeeding, not because he wants to be. Bogdanovic and Barnes are both sharpshooting wings who keep the ball moving, and when Murray comes back from injury I'll be able to field nightmare 3-guard lineups.

My team definitely isn't the best, or the most balanced, but I don't realistically see any team in this competition defending it.

[Roy H.]

Brooklyn succeeded in real life despite, on paper, that fit looking quite weird.

I have had that same thought many times.  On paper, Brooklyn looks pretty flawed.  Three guys who "need the ball in their hands".  Only one player who is regarded as an above-average defender, and four guys who range from weak defense to bottom 5% on that end.  Three big personalities. 

Where would people have projected that team in the CB Draft?  I think that people would have found reasons to mark it down.

[gouki88]

Brooklyn succeeded in real life despite, on paper, that fit looking quite weird.

I have had that same thought many times.  On paper, Brooklyn looks pretty flawed.  Three guys who "need the ball in their hands".  Only one player who is regarded as an above-average defender, and four guys who range from weak defense to bottom 5% on that end.  Three big personalities. 

Where would people have projected that team in the CB Draft?  I think that people would have found reasons to mark it down.

The real undoing of Brooklyn, ironically, were a couple of unlucky injuries. If they stay healthy this season I struggle to see them being stopped by anyone, sadly.

[RPGenerate]

Glad to hear my team getting some love. As I was thinking about my picks, I definitely leaned towards more of a fun team than anything else. Zion and Harden is the most interesting combo in this league imo, and it was a blast building around them.

[Moranis]

Brooklyn succeeded in real life despite, on paper, that fit looking quite weird.

I have had that same thought many times.  On paper, Brooklyn looks pretty flawed.  Three guys who "need the ball in their hands".  Only one player who is regarded as an above-average defender, and four guys who range from weak defense to bottom 5% on that end.  Three big personalities. 

Where would people have projected that team in the CB Draft?  I think that people would have found reasons to mark it down.

The real undoing of Brooklyn, ironically, were a couple of unlucky injuries. If they stay healthy this season I struggle to see them being stopped by anyone, sadly.

maybe or maybe the fit really is a problem the injuries last year just never made that known.

[Roy H.]

Brooklyn succeeded in real life despite, on paper, that fit looking quite weird.

I have had that same thought many times.  On paper, Brooklyn looks pretty flawed.  Three guys who "need the ball in their hands".  Only one player who is regarded as an above-average defender, and four guys who range from weak defense to bottom 5% on that end.  Three big personalities. 

Where would people have projected that team in the CB Draft?  I think that people would have found reasons to mark it down.

The real undoing of Brooklyn, ironically, were a couple of unlucky injuries. If they stay healthy this season I struggle to see them being stopped by anyone, sadly.

maybe or maybe the fit really is a problem the injuries last year just never made that known.

I don’t think the fit was a problem.  They almost beat the NBA champs while shorthanded.

[Moranis]

Brooklyn succeeded in real life despite, on paper, that fit looking quite weird.

I have had that same thought many times.  On paper, Brooklyn looks pretty flawed.  Three guys who "need the ball in their hands".  Only one player who is regarded as an above-average defender, and four guys who range from weak defense to bottom 5% on that end.  Three big personalities. 

Where would people have projected that team in the CB Draft?  I think that people would have found reasons to mark it down.

The real undoing of Brooklyn, ironically, were a couple of unlucky injuries. If they stay healthy this season I struggle to see them being stopped by anyone, sadly.

maybe or maybe the fit really is a problem the injuries last year just never made that known.

I don’t think the fit was a problem.  They almost beat the NBA champs while shorthanded.

No my point is, maybe when all 3 actually play together they don't actually fit.  Last year they basically only ever had 1 or 2 playing together.  They played virtually no time with all 3 so you can't really say they fit together well because no one knows that because no one saw it.  They might fit well together and dominate the league, or they might have all kinds of problems trying to make it work as a 3 headed monster instead of just a 2 headed monster.  They played a whopping 202 regular season minutes together (and the Net Rating was only 7.2 - a lot of 3 man units with at least 200 minutes were better including some significantly) and then 130 minutes in the playoffs (much better net rating of 22.1, but still 3rd among 3 man units with at least 50 minutes).  I just don't think you can know how they fit in a grand total of 332 minutes of actual on court time so I don't know that anyone can really claim that they make it work and fit well.